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Welded Stick - RV8
- Thread starter Webb
- Start date
I've been trying to figure this out for a couple of months and concluded I can't get it where it needs to be without limiting forward elevator travel or hitting the panel. I'm using an interim slight offset with no height increase while I consider whether the bottom of the panel needs to get shorter. I used a mockup for a little bit and flew with it once but it doesn't work well unless the seat gets shorter (Oregon Aero). If you or anyone else figures something out, I'd love to know about it.
IMO the 8, at least with my present seat and my dimensions, needs some ergo improvement. I'd love for the throttle quadrant to be offset 4-5" right and about the same amount aft.
Everyone has different ergonomics to accommodate, but in my case I opted for a 4" panel relief to accommodate control throw. This did require making a new panel complete with bottom edge reinforcement in order to preserve structural (Stock panel is 12.25" tall)
I'm still building though YMMV
Not flying yet but wondering where your sticks are relative to the panel when at neutral elevator? Mine is set up so the back of the stick is about 1/2" in front of the panel when in neutral. The Tosten grip clears the bottom of the panel by about 3/8". Full back stick is in the seat cutout but clear of the pilot. Full forward, which I will never use, is under the panel and a long reach. That was all the pushrod adjustment I had to move the stock stick into a comfortable reach position.
I put the elevator to a "in trail" position and if I remove the grip, and extend the stick tube fwd edge axis, then that axis is 4" from the top edge of the panel. (Note mine is a Fastback so my panel might not be exactly in the same place as yours).
When I was building my -8, I had worried about the stick length and clearance from reading the forum, and because I didn't know any better. After flying mine for almost a year, I am wondering what all the fuss about the the stick. I cut my stick so it clears the standard panel by about 1/2 inch. It's not perfect. I would have preferred it to be longer by an extra 1 - 2 inches. But we adapt. From the takeoff roll, when I need to push the stick forward to raise the tail, the stick is just forward of the panel edge. The aerodynamic force from the prop wash will let me know how much but I rarely move the stick more forward. Moving it any more forward will require a lot more forearm muscle.
In regard to the stick fully aft position, I only use it to pin the tail for taxiing or to do run-up. Even when doing stalls or landings, the stick doesn't move all the way aft. For a 3-point landing, the stick only moved fully aft after a landing and the airplane has slowed enough to allow the stick to be fully aft. When seating in the front seat with the parachute as the seat back, a fully aft stick will almost touch my stomach and I am of an average build. I definitely don't want any more aft stick in my setup.
Just another data point.
In regard to the stick fully aft position, I only use it to pin the tail for taxiing or to do run-up. Even when doing stalls or landings, the stick doesn't move all the way aft. For a 3-point landing, the stick only moved fully aft after a landing and the airplane has slowed enough to allow the stick to be fully aft. When seating in the front seat with the parachute as the seat back, a fully aft stick will almost touch my stomach and I am of an average build. I definitely don't want any more aft stick in my setup.
Just another data point.
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That’s about three inches taller than mine (in the front)! I think you’ve found why others aren’t understanding your fit problem - that’s an odd cushion for an -8 (in my experience).
Thanks for the feedback! I'm tall enough that I don't need it, and so is the builder. Seats are Oregon Aero. I couldn't get them to reply to an email a month or two ago on whether it can be modified. No idea.
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You can test the seat using several layers of inexpensive seat cushions from HomeDepot. After you get the thickness that you feel comfortable with, give this information to your upholsterer to make the custom seat cushion that match your body profile.
It may seem non-intuitive, but with a long inseam and big feet, the tall base cushion really helps with comfort. "Up and back" feels better, but of course you need the canopy headroom.
I made a 2" booster last spring, pink foam with a one ply glass shell. Stick is low in my lap, but it's ok by me.
I guess what looks odd about it is how thick it is up front - we pretty much all use the “wedge” down in the hole to bring things up level, but that much thickness closer to the stick is what I haven’t seen before. I guess it would raise your knees up quite a bit!
I'm not sure I can "fix" my issue - but I think it's similar to whats being discussed here:
I am 5' 8" with a short torso (and obviously not very long legs either). My preferred seating position is to have the top of the cowling touch the horizon in my RV-8, when stationary. In order to do this, I have to use additional foam beneath the main cushion (bought a completed flying RV).
In order to sit at the desired height, the top of the straight stick is quite low between my legs for normal flying and I would love to have it about 2-3 inches higher - but as discussed above, making a bent stick creates other issues.
So I think the only solution for me would be to lower my sitting position, and learn to fly like a real taildragger pilot - landing "blind" unable to see the forward horizon in the final landing attitude.
I have been wondering if I could somehow have the back of the seat a little higher than the front end of the seat, which would keep my spine and therefore eye height the same, but lower my thighs to allow a better grasp of the stick. I can see how this may cause a "sliding forward" sensation that would not be great.
Any ideas from the similarly "height challenged" RV-8 crowd? Thanks
I am 5' 8" with a short torso (and obviously not very long legs either). My preferred seating position is to have the top of the cowling touch the horizon in my RV-8, when stationary. In order to do this, I have to use additional foam beneath the main cushion (bought a completed flying RV).
In order to sit at the desired height, the top of the straight stick is quite low between my legs for normal flying and I would love to have it about 2-3 inches higher - but as discussed above, making a bent stick creates other issues.
So I think the only solution for me would be to lower my sitting position, and learn to fly like a real taildragger pilot - landing "blind" unable to see the forward horizon in the final landing attitude.
I have been wondering if I could somehow have the back of the seat a little higher than the front end of the seat, which would keep my spine and therefore eye height the same, but lower my thighs to allow a better grasp of the stick. I can see how this may cause a "sliding forward" sensation that would not be great.
Any ideas from the similarly "height challenged" RV-8 crowd? Thanks
I have the Oregon Aero seat foam (local upholstery shop covered) and ended up cutting about 2.5 inches off the bottom of the cushion and the local shop resized the leather cover so my height in the seat is good which did help some with grip height. It has the cutout so interference is not an issue.
Ergonomically I need the stick up and back. The initial setup is just plain uncomfortable.
Ergonomically I need the stick up and back. The initial setup is just plain uncomfortable.
This sounds like exactly my problem. Weird that the Oregon Aero seat height isn't talked about more. I must admit they are relatively comfortable though, and I fly a lot of XC.
I did that a couple times on my RV8’s. I made a jig to hold the parts while tack welding (see pic). The opposite side of the board is similar so I could tack both sides before welding. I cut a 3” piece out of the stick on 60* angles, rotated that piece 180*, and welded it back in place. It worked well for me and cleared the seat bottom.
Then on my RV4 (later in life), I used an RV14 stick attached to the cut off RV4 stick. The RV4 stick is the same as the RV8. I had to machine down a section of 4130 tube to put inside the cut off RV4 stick because the fit was a little loose.
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Clever. Very clever.
Any more time saving, related details would be appreciated. Thx
Thank you Scott. I’ve ordered a new stick to cut and weld.
Something occurred to me when I was looking at modifying the stick was the military grip drops your hand slightly and the original designed stick gave another inch or so when gripping the stick. I’m inclined to think that since the 8 is approaching a 25 year birthday, original design and Vans planned simplicity didn’t take into account the lowering of the hand with these type grips.
However moving the grip aft is something that could have been improved on and I feel there are sufficient numbers of purchasers to justify Vans offering a bent stick option for 4/8’s.
Something occurred to me when I was looking at modifying the stick was the military grip drops your hand slightly and the original designed stick gave another inch or so when gripping the stick. I’m inclined to think that since the 8 is approaching a 25 year birthday, original design and Vans planned simplicity didn’t take into account the lowering of the hand with these type grips.
However moving the grip aft is something that could have been improved on and I feel there are sufficient numbers of purchasers to justify Vans offering a bent stick option for 4/8’s.
The magic 8 ball says “highly unlikely”
The company is treading water post bankruptcy and designing a new airframe. Probably not going to jump into the bent stick game.
Vans has a long history of not substantially updating their kits as far as I can tell. My 8A was built recently with the stock hollow rivet static ports, with the tubing constantly falling off, and I can't fathom why anyone wouldn't want something better when there are so many great alternatives. Many of the solutions that builders have found over the years should have become the standard a decade or two ago.
In fairness, they do adopt better ideas as they come along, but usually as part of a new airframe design. There's little point in making changes to minor stuff builders are already happily changing to suit their tastes.
It's a mindset. Some want Tab A to Slot B kits. Some build custom airplanes. Neither is wrong.
This stick question is a great example. Some would like grip closer to their belly. Others have grown their bellies to meet the stick. Some have T-Rex arms, some have 36" sleeves. Some want a grip with 20 buttons. There is no one size fits all, so you get a straight stick and change what you like.
It's a mindset. Some want Tab A to Slot B kits. Some build custom airplanes. Neither is wrong.
This stick question is a great example. Some would like grip closer to their belly. Others have grown their bellies to meet the stick. Some have T-Rex arms, some have 36" sleeves. Some want a grip with 20 buttons. There is no one size fits all, so you get a straight stick and change what you like.
Indeed it is! But, while the curved -14 stick works well in an RV-4, it doesn’t really work for an -8. Awhile back I copied Scott’s idea and modded my front stick with the curved insert, but, no bueno! The lower curve location on the stick bumps into the metal seat ramp and lower cushion; it quite limited my aft/up elevator travel, plus interfered with aileron throw due to the cushion. You could try it yourself, but I don’t recommend it.
What the -8 really needs (IMHO) is a cut and weld offset mod rather than a bent, curved stick; it needs a taller vertical distance from the pivot point with a several inch aft offset for the grip so the stick clears the seat ramp. So, my next attempt at this was to shamelessly copy another VAF dude, Bryan “Low Pass” as he was kind enough to post pics with measurements of his cut/weld stick. I used his measurements as a starting point, but also used some heavy cardboard to cut a few templates to tweak my measurements and angles. I ordered a new stick from Vans plus a bit of extra 4130 steel tube stock and took it to my local one-man welding shop. He had it all cut and welded in an hour or so… which was pretty handy as I know diddly squat about welding!
A link to Bryan’s pics;
And a pic of my finished product; I’m not into all the cool stick grips with switches everywhere, all I need is a PTT… but I do kinda like the simplicity and look of an old Grumman Wildcat grip, so I found one on eBay that I trimmed down to fit. At full forward on the stick this assembly clears the lower panel by 1/8”. As for grip position when flying, man, this is just right; soooo much better than the stock position…
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Totally agree, and I was using his as a model, but he was somehow able to increase height without hitting the panel. I can't pull it off.Indeed it is! But, while the curved -14 stick works well in an RV-4, it doesn’t really work for an -8. Awhile back I copied Scott’s idea and modded my front stick with the curved insert, but, no bueno! The lower curve location on the stick bumps into the metal seat ramp and lower cushion; it quite limited my aft/up elevator travel, plus interfered with aileron throw due to the cushion. You could try it yourself, but I don’t recommend it.
What the -8 really needs (IMHO) is a cut and weld offset mod rather than a bent, curved stick; it needs a taller vertical distance from the pivot point with a several inch aft offset for the grip so the stick clears the seat ramp. So, my next attempt at this was to shamelessly copy another VAF dude, Bryan “Low Pass” as he was kind enough to post pics with measurements of his cut/weld stick. I used his measurements as a starting point, but also used some heavy cardboard to cut a few templates to tweak my measurements and angles. I ordered a new stick from Vans plus a bit of extra 4130 steel tube stock and took it to my local one-man welding shop. He had it all cut and welded in an hour or so… which was pretty handy as I know diddly squat about welding!
A link to Bryan’s pics;
And a pic of my finished product; I’m not into all the cool stick grips with switches everywhere, all I need is a PTT… but I do kinda like the simplicity and look of an old Grumman Wildcat grip, so I found one on eBay that I trimmed down to fit. At full forward on the stick this assembly clears the lower panel by 1/8”. As for grip position when flying, man, this is just right; soooo much better than the stock position…
I get it, and I'm much closer to wanting Tab A to Slot B than the average successful builder, but the easiest to build kits are incredibly slow designs like the Zenith, and the fastest conventional aluminum designs (Vans) take realistically 2000h+ to build.
So Vans gave us 3 evolutions in the past 30 years - no holes to prepunched (i.e. 3/4/6 to 7/8/9/10), then prepunched to final size (7/8/9/10 to 14), and final size to final size with no dimpling and blind rivets (14 to 12 and probably 15, but we'll have to see). The old kits never get updated, which I understand may be too much work. In most cases the models get replaced with a new design (4->8 and 6->7->14) but my preferred plane has been the same since day one. I basically want a faster 9A that's easier to build than the 14A, but the 9A kit was never updated and there's never been a replacement. Maybe a 14A with -10 wings like someone suggested a while back. The designs are fantastic, they just need to be updated a little, IMO.
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I think they did update their designs. The updated RV4 became the RV8. The updated RV6 became the RV7. The RV9(/A) doesn’t need to be updated because it’s a stand alone design with a different mission. And the RV14 DOES have RV10 wings. They are just a little shorter because you don’t need such a long wing for a smaller two seater if you want want to ensure certain handling characteristics. That’s why the first RV14/14A kit was the wing kit - no redesign necessary.
mill2978
Well Known Member
I did something similar and used the RV-14 stick with a shim for the size difference
I would argue it needs an update, because every other legacy model has received one and the 6 (the 2-place, side by side aerobatic formula) has arguably been updated twice (7 and 14). The 9 is one of the higher hour builds compared to newer models, it has far too little fuel, and people have been putting 180hp in them for years without factory sanction or any increase in Vne. The one with the 916iS is as close to an update as we could get, and it took a 3rd party to make that happen.
Now, you can do all that stuff on your own, and some have, but it takes a lot more time and uncharted territory. A few factory updates over the last 20 years would have been nice.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
The -7 was indeed a refinement of the -6 but the -14 has so many differences it can be considered a new platform with the same number of seats as the earlier RVs.
I found an archived picture I took of my jig with dimensions, for those who have contacted me looking for measurements. I’m not saying this will work on yours the way it did on both of my RV8’s, so carefully measure if you contemplate doing this. The measurements reference using the Infinity military style stick grip, and the top of the Cooley hat only clears the bottom of my panel by 1/8”. When the stick is in that position I was close to the nose down pitch stop.
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Thanks for the info Scott. I built a jig and after the first weld, cut the jig and then used a disc sander to sand the to match up the joint for the second weld.
I spent the afternoon at my bud’s shop and it cost me a batch of bourbon balls I made for some really nice welding work.
I spent the afternoon at my bud’s shop and it cost me a batch of bourbon balls I made for some really nice welding work.
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