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Vibration from mains while taxing between 38-34kts

Jbeiler2

I'm New Here
I’ve had a shimmy / vibration on my 7a since the first flight on Jan 3, 2023. I thought it was the nose wheel but after installing a vid cam under the wing and reviewing, I can plainly see both mains are bouncing forward and aft during those speeds. I’ve adjusted tire pressure and installed the wooden leg stiffeners but it’s still there. The shimmy is worse if I’m on the brakes during that speed window. If I stay off the brakes during that speed, it’s noticeably better but not 100% gone. I haven’t balanced the tires but I did put new ones on and made no difference. I’ve checked the wheel bearing pre-load too. It would seem to me that the leg stiffeners aren’t doing their job. I can send a link to the video if you want to see it. Johnbeilersrq at gmail.com. Thanks for any help.
 
What air pressure are you using? Used to be the consensus was lower pressure helped, and I ran mid-20's but still experienced shimmy. More recently (like the last 10 years) I've had much better results at 35 PSI.
 
The first thing I would do is balance the tires. I wouldn't run the air pressure too low, that's a good way to get a flat.
 
Vibration

If you have the Matco wheels without a spacer, make sure you install one. I got the anti splat bearing mod and balanced the mains. No vibration at all.
 
In my old RV4 that had the stock wheel pants, wooden leg stiffeners and 500-5 tires and no shimmy.

I installed the 380-150 tires and had an occasional shimmey.

Installed the new style pressure recovery wheel pants and the shimmey became more often than not.

I balanced the tires and played with tire pressure and the low 20's was the best by far but was still an issue.

New runways were certainly better.

There is some stuff on the forum about using flat aluminum instead of the wood with some good results.

I haven't read about anyone going from wood to the aluminum for an actual comparison.

Tim
 
Not being facetious...... I'd just taxi slower. 30 kts is a fairly high taxi speed, IMHO. 35 psi is my target tire pressure.

OTOH, my plane is a tail-dragger, and fast taxi is pretty much a no-no. We also taxi in formation, and 30 kts would be WAY too fast for 4 RV's taxiing in formation...
 
I have gone up to 38 psi twice on mains and gotten shimmy both times when slowing down through 35 kts on landing. 32-35 psi never have had shimmy.
 
There is likely not a “do this ….” fix. Leg stiffening, wood/ metal/ fiberglass, higher air pressure, balancing tires, preload on bearings. Like others said , low pressure might get ya. I like others run 40 lbs. My shimmy 18-12 mph, tap brakes and mine calm. Usually my left main only. Frustrating, I agree.
 
My RV-10 has some shimmy at 14-18 knots. Not to be critical, but your taxi speed is a little on the high side.

I run 45-50 psi in all of the tires. It rolls easier and does have less shimmy. I don’t think it’s possible to get all of the shimmy out due to the nature/design of the landing gear.

Vic
 
I doubt he is taxing at that speed. I suspect he means transiting those speeds on landing. Taxing at those speeds would be a recipe for a very expensive issue on a aircraft without nose wheel steering.
 
I doubt he is taxing at that speed. I suspect he means transiting those speeds on landing. Taxing at those speeds would be a recipe for a very expensive issue on a aircraft without nose wheel steering.

I assumed the same.

Since many people don’t, the first thing I would recommend be done is balance both main wheel assemblies.
 
I'm picking up gear vibration....there is no explination.....

I’ve had a shimmy / vibration on my 7a since the first flight on Jan 3, 2023. I thought it was the nose wheel but after installing a vid cam under the wing and reviewing, I can plainly see both mains are bouncing forward and aft during those speeds. I’ve adjusted tire pressure and installed the wooden leg stiffeners but it’s still there. The shimmy is worse if I’m on the brakes during that speed window. If I stay off the brakes during that speed, it’s noticeably better but not 100% gone. I haven’t balanced the tires but I did put new ones on and made no difference. I’ve checked the wheel bearing pre-load too. It would seem to me that the leg stiffeners aren’t doing their job. I can send a link to the video if you want to see it. Johnbeilersrq at gmail.com. Thanks for any help.

This is a common problem and partly due to the design of the gear itself. It is likely more common with the round, tapered steel gear that angles aft but the flat gear has its problems as well. It is a harmonic vibration thing and, once it starts, can feed on itself. Gear leg stiffeners do help; that's why Van's recommended them so long ago. Other things may or may not contribute to the problem:

The wheel fairings: the older style were easier to balance than the newer style. I have the older and there is a sizeable amount of lead shot fixed in the nose with fiberglass resin to balance them. That helped mine. I bought a pair of the pressure-recovery pants from Van's just before the price went up $$:eek:$$ and I will be interested to see how balanced those are out of the box.

Gear leg stiffening: I initially had no reinforcement on the legs and my vibration was inconsistent depending on I don't know what but more of an annoyance than anything. I recently fiberglassed 0.5" fiberglass rods on the front of the gear. I have not flight-tested those yet as it was on the list of a lot of other things I am in the middle of doing.

Tires: they vary significantly as to how well balanced they are from the factory. And on your airplane they will be coupled with your wheel/brake assembly and the entire unit being balanced may be better than trusting the 'red mark' on the tires. There has been much said about how to go about that. Some people have never balanced theirs and are perfectly content. My HF motorcycle wheel balancer does an excellent job for not much investment. I also use their wheel weights. Pressures: what is done is all over the map as far as personal preference. I would avoid the lower pressures. I have only pulled the stem off of a tube once from braking hard with a low pressure but that was enough. (It was in the Cub but still...) The consensus seems to be something north of 30psi. Trial-and-error will find the correct pressure for your airplane.

Brakes: if the vibration seems worse when you apply the brakes, the disk can be out-of-tolerance or brake pads might be wearing asymmetrically. I find there is less vibration when braking with new pads. A simple way to mic the disks is by going around with a "C" gage in multiple areas and making sure the thickness is consistent. Not as accurate as a dial gauge with the disk moving but adequate.

Acceptance: there will likely ALWAYS be some vibration (see paragraph one) but minimizing it will make you happier and keep your passengers from giving you that 'what the heck was THAT?':eek: look!
 
My mains shimmied at almost the same speed. Balancing the wheels largely solved the problem.
 
Yes, I should have clarified. When I said “taxi” I meant after a landing while still on the runway and slowing down before turning off. Jask- yes, Matco wheels. I’ll check out Anit-splat for that spacer you mentioned. I’m doubtful it’s brake rotor runout because I should get a vibration at all speeds just at different vibration frequencies. Having owned and auto shop for 30 years, I know what warped rotors feel like at different speeds. (On cars of course ) Typically more noticeable at high speeds than lower. Tire out of balance causes vibrations in speed window like this but the fact that it’s worse during braking makes me think its not that but I’m going to balance the tires anyways. I keep tire pressures between 40 and 45psi. I took the wheel pants off, made no improvements. I have the round tapered steel gear that angle aft. I think it’s like roadjunkie1 says, “harmonic vibration” caused by the friction of tire on the runway pulling it back. As the resistance decreases, the axel moves forward. At that sweet spot it ends up moving forward and back quickly until slowed enough that it stays forward. Which is why Vans recommend leg stiffeners. Thanks for all those that replied, you guys are awesome! I will follow up either way. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
Also

I have a -10 but mine shimmies as well between 32 and 36 knots on landing roll.

It has stiffeners. It did it with the stock bearings. I does it with the antisplat bearing mod. The wheels are balanced. The brakes are fine. It does it with or without using them, however, less noticeable if you let off the brakes between those speeds. It does it with the stick back or neutral. And it doesn’t seem to be weight related. As others have said, it appears to just be a resonance and nothing I have tried really makes a huge difference.
 
Idea/Suggestion For Reducing Main Gear Vibration

John,
I have a 9A and had a similar vibration. It was so violent that I was to a point of parking it until I had the vibration understood. This thing felt as though it would go divergent if I didn't apply braking. I fully support the guys stating balancing will help. I also think the leg stiffeners that people have had success with is an alternative but didn't want to jump to the stiffeners without trying something a bit more focussed on damping. I have some understanding of systems vibration and felt it was a sensitivity issue that needed to be addressed. After a year of having the "added damping" I'm confident I reduced the sensitivity. My issue is now at a level that most people wouldn't notice any vibration. I do pick it up once in a while but it is subtle and goes away without any intervention. I'll try and link a few slides to this note. I still haven't balanced my tires but will next time my wheels are off. If it doesn't link, I'll pass it on via email.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17fyiInyJztJtT8s56-5lDX8uvL_EWMQP0FnQhgqJy-Y/edit?usp=drive_link
 
Slides are not accessible.. you'd need to "open" them to everyone.. or share a read only copy


John,
I have a 9A and had a similar vibration. It was so violent that I was to a point of parking it until I had the vibration understood. This thing felt as though it would go divergent if I didn't apply braking. I fully support the guys stating balancing will help. I also think the leg stiffeners that people have had success with is an alternative but didn't want to jump to the stiffeners without trying something a bit more focussed on damping. I have some understanding of systems vibration and felt it was a sensitivity issue that needed to be addressed. After a year of having the "added damping" I'm confident I reduced the sensitivity. My issue is now at a level that most people wouldn't notice any vibration. I do pick it up once in a while but it is subtle and goes away without any intervention. I'll try and link a few slides to this note. I still haven't balanced my tires but will next time my wheels are off. If it doesn't link, I'll pass it on via email.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17fyiInyJztJtT8s56-5lDX8uvL_EWMQP0FnQhgqJy-Y/edit?usp=drive_link
 
John,
I have a 9A and had a similar vibration. It was so violent that I was to a point of parking it until I had the vibration understood. This thing felt as though it would go divergent if I didn't apply braking. I fully support the guys stating balancing will help. I also think the leg stiffeners that people have had success with is an alternative but didn't want to jump to the stiffeners without trying something a bit more focussed on damping. I have some understanding of systems vibration and felt it was a sensitivity issue that needed to be addressed. After a year of having the "added damping" I'm confident I reduced the sensitivity. My issue is now at a level that most people wouldn't notice any vibration. I do pick it up once in a while but it is subtle and goes away without any intervention. I'll try and link a few slides to this note. I still haven't balanced my tires but will next time my wheels are off. If it doesn't link, I'll pass it on via email.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19tTqnPbbt76RYqhSPqjLzP81DfDutGwDdPw623hk3DQ/edit?usp=sharing

One more try at making the file visible to all
 
Just getting back from COVID and adding to this thread. A couple of things---- over the years we have noticed that the better tires, suich as GoodYear Flight Custom III and Michelin Aviator are less prone to shimmy, especially when balanced and inflated to 45-50 PSI.

Also, check the tires for out of round or some flat spots. They will definitely cause shimmy.

Vic
 
Are you, by chance, a Southwest pilot??
Most people, unless they are flying the Hobbs meter on a rental airplane, don't taxi that fast.
But, seriously, try adjusting the tire inflation pressure some more in 2-3 pound increments. You didn't indicate what pressures you have tried, but there is a pretty large range available.
Just saw your later post. I suggest you lower the pressure on the mains to 32-35 PSI and retest.
 
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As mentioned by Roadjunkie, gear leg shimmy is a challenge that is inherent in the design of the Whittman gear legs in not just RV's but many other aircraft.

Back in the earliest days, Harmon Lange started serial production of gear legs for the Davis DA2 aircraft. These airplanes almost all exhibit this gear leg shake at one speed or another.

The Glastar and Sportsman both use this same style of gear leg and can both exhibit shaking.

It has been mentioned this is an oscillation that's caused by some form of "excitement" which produces the initial movement. That initial movement in some cases is undamped and expands and a positive feedback loop starts, eventually ending in damage to the aircraft or the pilot taking aggressive action to remove the "excitement".

As some have mentioned, changing tire pressures, tire balance, sidewall stiffness, gear leg stiffness ALL have the potential to change the onset of the shakes as each of these elements can be the element that excites the feedback loop.

The Davis DA2 is particularly prone to the "shakes" as a result of its gear leg geometry. In my DA2A I've managed to tame the shakes and then a tire change was required. Lo and behold, there I was back into the experimentation loop trying to tame the shakes again. It was particularly problematic when I installed a set of Monster Retreads. They were both heaver and much stiffer than the Flight Customs they replaced. I was able to tune the shaking down to a reasonable speed range by balancing the wheels and then adjusting air pressure 2psi at a time. Yes, it did take a while to get things settled down. Unfortunately the sidewalls of those tires checked very prematurely and once again I was back to the drawing board, doing the same tuning with a set of Aero Classics. The "happy" tire pressure with the Monsters was 22psi while the Aero Classics are happiest at 32psi. The shaking with the Monsters being heavier and stiffer, was always much heavier than the Aero Classics even before I started to tune them.

I should mention that most Glasair Sportsman aircraft have their gear legs reinforced with fiberglass wraps over foam. This has proven a big help in reducing the fore-aft oscillation of the gear legs. From reading here I know folks have tried a number of solutions in the same vein on their RV aircraft.

It takes a little work to "tune" the combination of tires and wheels but it's well worth the effort. Will we ever completely eliminate the shakes? Not likely, but we may well move it to a narrower speed range where we hardly have a chance to feel it starting up before it stops itself.
 
Fixed (mostly) my -7 with a similar problem by replacing the original Van supplied tires and tubes with Desser retreads (5.00x5 6 Ply Retread Elite Premium 2 Groove) and 5.00x5 Michelin Airstop Inner Tubes .. 35-40 psi. The original tire setup had 250 hours and lots of abuse, were out of round, and didn't hold air. Probably had a couple of flat spots too. They didn't look bad sitting still but on the balancer they wobbled and bumped. The first set were kind of like the trashy tires the auto manufacturers put on new cars in the past ... just enough to roll out the door.

Not as smooth as the plane I fly at work were I can just enter a write up and get 10 mechanics to drop a new set of skins on, but not bad.

Cheers
 
I run all of the tires my 7A at 40 PSI.
I did balance all three wheels and tires and have no shimmy at all.

Try balancing. It is very easy to do. We use Harbor Freight motorcycle wheel balancer we use with stick on wheel weights.
 
Thank you to everyone who offered help with this issue. First, I increased both mains to 50psi and flew it. It was much improved, I'd say by at least 50% better. Next I bought a motorcycle tire balancer from Harbor Freight. After fabricating some adaptors because the centering cones it comes with weren't large enough in diameter, I balance both tires. Left was out 1/2 oz and the right was out 1 oz. I thinks that a lot for such a small tire. I thought for sure that would make it completely smooth but, alas, it didn't improve any further. It is at least now fairly benign with keeping 50psi in it. I'll fly it that way for now until the next time I have the leg fairings off and then I'll add the dampers that rjk921 suggested and provided a great article on.
 
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