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Vans website Oshkosh RV-12 Update

I think we all have gotten ourselves worked-up in to a frenzy. I have a suggestion:

Lets stop guessing at what an RV-12 is, and wait until Van's tells us what an RV-12 is.

After that we can all have a real discussion about performance and price.

Deal?
 
freegespeed said:
I would catagorize myself as a "blue coller" guy. I bought a beautiful RV6A which I love, but it is expensive to fly. I heard about the whole LSA thing and thought that there may be something in it for me.
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Clark,

Was I right when I wrote that the best kit you will ever own is the one someone else built? Congratulations on the 6.

There are plenty of LSA type of airplanes out there in the used market. A quick check on Barnstormers will show you a whole bunch of them from $18K to $35K. Some with more gadgets than others. Check for Titan Tornado, Rans S-7, Sonex (Argh!) and others out there that come equipped with the venerable Rotax 912S.

A fellow pilot from Sleepy Eye, MN Larry Lund is selling his 2000 OSH Grand Champ Titan Tornado for $28000 with a new 912S engine. His plane is a craftsmanship example and is beautiful. With avgas at $4.25 the difference between 5 GPH and 9 GPH adds up quickly. 100 Hours of flight time could mean about $1800 extra after tax dollars saved. Do that over 10 years and you are looking at almost $20 Grand saved for adding up cockpit fun time.

Add the cost of earning that dough and it could be as high as $37,000 dollars saved over 10 years of ownership. Never mind the maintenance costs and insurance are cheaper on these ?smaller?, less loaded, airplanes. An oil/filter change on the 912S sets you back $20. What does it cost in a Lyc?

Sure the RV12 kit may cost almost as much as say an RV7, but the finished plane will not because the gadgets and interior will not be the same. The panel in an amateur built LSA plane should be a fraction of what you?d normally find in a hogged-out, x-country, RV7. My Tornado has an ASI, EIS, ALT, handheld radio and an Ebay $350 Xpndr. I use my PDA with a GPS for navigation and I have flown as much as 1000 miles in a day. My panel is less than $2Gs. What is the average expense of a panel in the big RV planes?

Believe me you when I say that the operational costs is where we get the return in our LSA investment. I get even more in savings because I self-insure my hull, which after 6 years it means $8000 after tax dollars saved! I figure most of my money is in the engine prop, and panel. The hull I can alwys rebuild for a couple of G's.

I am not sure where the figure of $30K for an LSA came from. I think it is unreal to equate dollars spent to how much airplane you can get because the variables are too many. A paint job alone can add several thousand dollars to the cost of building an airplane. I took a peek inside the CT Sport and the interior finish was automotive like and did not look homemade. That costs money! The panel was cool looking and all electronic. Again more dough! I do agree the 912S engine is expensive, thanks in part to the $1.29 Euro and our lawyer friends.

I was dreaming of building the RV7 for under $35K. I had $11K invested and 1000 hours when I sold the unfinished kit. I quickly realized that was a dream that would have consisted of a tired O320, wood prop, spartan instrumentation and a bad homemade interior I was concoting. Worst yet it could not be operated from my 1100 runway. So I sold it and continue to fly my Tornado until I pick my next plane.

The average blue collar Joe needs to think about how much it will cost to own and operate the airplane, not just buy the kit and build it. Even if a 12 and 7 were similarly equipped, the 12 (as I illustrated above) will still cost a heck of a lot less to own and operate than the 7. When the much rumored fuel injected Rotax 912S appears it will burn even less gas!

It should be no different than buying a car or an SUV. What are you going to do with it after you get it? That?s where the LSA will fit. Is what we do with it and what it costs to do it, not what we pay for it.

I see a bright future in the LSA venture. As the word spreads out I see a lot of downsizing happening from the bigger engines to the smaller ones. Best part is all of us PPLs can go down to the SPL and continue flying w/o a medical. What's to hate? More cockpit time for a lot less money and no need to have a medical?

Jose Borja
 
Pepe,

Like your logic and agree with you 100%. However, I have gotten the Glass Cockpit disease and I don't know how to cure it!!

Can't wait until SNF 2007 when we should have a flying prototypes (POCs) of the RV12 and S-19.

LOL

:D
 
otterhunter2 said:
Pepe,

Like your logic and agree with you 100%. However, I have gotten the Glass Cockpit disease and I don't know how to cure it!!

Can't wait until SNF 2007 when we should have a flying prototypes (POCs) of the RV12 and S-19.

LOL

:D
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I get my glass panel kicks with the PC Flight Simulators.

Flying a B-747 in zero-zero conditions with a 20Kt crosswind and blowing snow to a perfect touchdown at O?hare International while delicately balancing an Old Milwaukee is hard to beat and is dirt cheap!

That?s something no RV driver will ever do no matter how many gadgets they cram in to the pit! That may be your cure!

Happy flying or should I say Happy Flight Simulator flying?

Jose.
 
PepeBorja said:
Clark,



There are plenty of LSA type of airplanes out there in the used market. A quick check on Barnstormers will show you a whole bunch of them from $18K to $35K. Some with more gadgets than others. Check for Titan Tornado, Rans S-7, Sonex (Argh!) and others out there that come equipped with the venerable Rotax 912S.

Jose Borja
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I think this is a good suggestion but a Titan Tornado is too close to ultralight status for me. I have a friend who has one of these he fly's out of Nichols field down here San Diego and can fly 90 mph so thats too slow for me. Its looks like fun, but I would only give up the RV6A for top flight LSA like a Pulsar or something similar.

I remember before the Euro went up I visted the TL Sting and Star websight and they a fully built, turn key TL Star for $40,000! This wasn't that long ago.

Unfortunately the high end, LSA "used" market is probably pretty slim pickings right now since they are just coming out. A used Sonnex can be a pretty good deal if you can find one. A used Zenith 601 is probably one of your best shots at getting under the $30,000 ownership target.

By the way I flew my 6A up to French Valley today and pulled the power back to 2400 rpm at 125 knots just to see if it was more miserly on the fuel. I don't have a fuel computer but it seemed to be just a bit better. I tried this based on some of the suggestions in this thread.

I'm sure there will be some interesting things to report after the Van's home comming.

Cheers
 
freegespeed said:
I think this is a good suggestion but a Titan Tornado is too close to ultralight status for me. Unfortunately the high end, LSA "used" market is probably pretty slim pickings right now since they are just coming out. A used Sonnex can be a pretty good deal if you can find one. A used Zenith 601 is probably one of your best shots at getting under the $30,000 ownership target.
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It is too bad you perceive the Tornado to be that way. The Titan Tornado is one of the best sport aircraft out there and has won OSH?s Grand Champ awards in 2000 and 2005 that I am aware of.

It outdoes the RV in just about every aspect except speed, range, and baggage capacity. It will do mild aerobatics (+6/-4 G @1000 Lbs) and turn quickly which comes handy for the toilet paper toss competition. It operates safely from unimproved 1000 strips, has incredible visibility and makes a great photo platform flying straight and level. Dan Johnson wrote a great article about it many moons ago.

http://www.titanaircraft.com/other_articles.php?article=flyer

I picked up my Tornado kit on Thanksgiving and was flying by the summer after 600 hrs later. I built the entire airplane from crate to paint in about the same time it took me to build the RV7 wings. The QB option would get one in the air in about 200 hrs. From the point of view of LSAs it is perhaps the best plane for the buck out there. $35K for kit, engine and prop with basic instruments.

I have flown in the Sonex a couple of times and it has some drawbacks: Glare from the windscreen pronounced rake, small accommodations for two adults, and limited fwd and side visibility due to the low wing, side by side design. Its purpose is to go fast with the bigger Jabiru engines and not to tour the country side with a buddy and take on the scenery as it goes by. I have a friend that flies jets for a living and he owns a Sonex with the VW Great Plain engine and a Titan with the Rotax 503 engine. He will not land the Sonex in my 1000 grass strip even when solo. The pulsar I have not flown but it?s the same story from what I have been able to read. Don't know much about the Zenith but the pilot with the Sonex test flew the Zenith at the factory and came away unimpressed. The main compaint being heavy controls.

Pilots are really going to make a wish list of what they want before choosing their LSA of choice. I am afraid that subjectivity rather than objectivity will lead many to pick the wrong airplane for the type of flying they do. The good news form that is there will be more used airplanes for sale.

I was reading Dan Johnson?s web page and Randy Schlitter told him the S-20 is now in the works to accommodate those LSA pilots that prefer the high wing design over his S-19 low wing design. That?s forward thinking! One designer, two different airplane wing configurations and no removable wings? Randy has always catered to type of pilot that is not into RV type of airplanes. He knows a thing or two about what makes Sport Pilots tick.

Regardless, the great news is that choices are plenty today. Back in 2000 when I built my Tornado choices were very few. Today we have lots of choices to be made and that?s always a good thing. It will be interesting to see how the RV12 does against the huge lineup of LSAs currently on the field. If the first few planes can be built in the500-800 hour range he should see some good sales. Anything over that and the enthusiasm will diminish. That could be the problem for Schlitter too if his designs take that long to build.

Jose.
 
PepeBorja said:
It is too bad you perceive the Tornado to be that way. The Titan Tornado is one of the best sport aircraft out there and has won OSH?s Grand Champ awards in 2000 and 2005 that I am aware of.

It outdoes the RV in just about every aspect except speed, range, and baggage capacity.
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Now that's a quote. Heck, what's next? Challengers are better than Rockets?

I don't really know what you are looking for but it seems obvious that RVs aren't it. That's OK, they're not for everyone. I just hope you find what you are looking for soon and better yet, maybe that type of aircraft will have a forum as well.
 
Different needs for diffferent pilots

I'm always open to new ideas in recreational flying, so I'll keep on open mind about "all" the different LSA options out there. Maybe the Titan is a good choice, but my mission dictates a more conventional type of plane. I fly from a tower controlled airport where corporate jets are comming in regularly. If I lived out on a farm in Kansas with room for my own private strip, my mission would be different, and then the Titan might be a fun choice. I also prefer, to a degree, the look of low wing planes over high wing ones. Anyway, aviation is expensive any way you slice it, so I'll probably keep on pulling back the power on my RV6A during cruise for now.
 
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freegespeed said:
Maybe the Titan is a good choice, but my mission dictates a more conventional type of plane. I fly from a tower controlled airport where corporate jets are comming in regularly. If I lived out on a farm in Kansas with room for my own private strip, my mission would be different, and then the Titan might be a fun choice.
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Speed is not a prerequisite to fly into ATC controlled fields. I used to fly my Tornado into Rochester International Airport when I used to do contract work for the Mayo Clinic. Many times I had commercial jest wait for me to land and clear or had them taxi behind me. It meant no never mind to me. The tower thought it was a hoot to have a plane approach the field at 100 knots, land, and make the first taxiway to the GA ramp just 200 feet from the runway threshold.

You did hit the nail in the head by thinking about the missions you intend to fly. That?s key to making the best possible choice. If 150 knots and 500 nm mile legs sucking on oxygen at a billion feet is the mission then these small LSA type of airplanes won?t get the job done. Although I do admit with shame cruising at 9500 feet on my way to Ohio taking advantage of a 30 knot tail wind.

This is a pic of my RV7 just before I sold it. Granted I don?t have an RV plane tattooed on my chest but at least I spent 1000 hours pounding rivets into one. I gave it a shot but figured at this point in my life speed and distance are not priorities in my flying life but some day I look forward to buy someone's RV7 pride and joy.

http://www.hometown.aol.com/pepeborja/RV1.jpg

Here?s proof that I went to 9500 once to breathe rare air and get a tail wind; otherwise it?s a 1500 AGL and catch the views on the way to and fro.

http://www.hometown.aol.com/pepeborja/Geneva1.jpg

And here?s a shot of why high wing airplanes make great sight seeing and picture platforms. The pilot below also owns an RV7 TD (OK, I admit I was trying to emulate him).

http://www.hometown.aol.com/pepeborja/KW.jpg

Best wishes in your next choice of airplanes. I would recommend anyone to spend time flying in the airplane before buying one and getting a feel for the airplane?s subjective offerings.

Jose.
 
This has been a great thread. Here's why I am interested in the whole LSA concept:

I've had a PPL license since I was 18. Back in the 90's I got as far as the wing kit on a RV-4 before family responsibilities ate up all my spare time. I'm 52 now and own a 1970 Mooney M-10 Cadet. This is pretty much in the same league as your average LSA airplane, only maybe a little slower. ;-)

Anyway, my 3rd class medical expired last month so I made the trip to my FAA doc and carefully filled out the form. Unfortunately, I had a kidney stone incident 18 months ago and I knew the FAA would not be pleased. So I was prepared with a letter from my urologist saying that the condition was resolved and that he saw no reason for a reoccurance.

I had also been under some stress at work and got an FAA approved blood pressure medication. I also came prepared with a letter from my doctor saying that the condition was stress-related and 'benign'. So I felt I was pretty well prepared.

Well, forget about *that*. The AMA said he would be unable to issue me a medical until I had a whole series of tests conducted, including a CAT scan to probe for kidney stones. I'm now in the process of doing a 24-hour metabolic screening to 'prove' that I will not be producing any new kidney stones. If it were not for the fact that my wife and I both have medical coverage with Kaiser Permanente, I would be paying literally thousands of dollars for these tests. And there is still no guarantee that I will get that 3rd class medical.

The way I look at it, every time a guy with a PPL goes in for a medical he is playing Russian Roulete. One of the catches in the Sport Pilot program is that you are not eligible if you have lost your medical. Well, I consider myself to be in pretty good shape for my age but I'm looking at losing mine - forever.

So it makes no sense for me to build or buy a RV 6,7,8 or 9, not when I can lose my medical at any time at the whim of Oklahoma City. But it *would* make a lot of sense to sell the Cadet and move into a slightly newer, slightly faster, glass cockpitted RV-12 that I knew I could fly for as long as I could drive a car.

That's my 2 cents, and something I think you should all consider when evaluating the LSA concept.

Jim
 
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JimmyBob said:
The way I look at it, every time a guy with a PPL goes in for a medical he is playing Russian Roulete. One of the catches in the Sport Pilot program is that you are not eligible if you have lost your medical. Well, I consider myself to be in pretty good shape for my age but I'm looking at losing mine - forever....
That's my 2 cents, and something I think you should all consider when evaluating the LSA concept.

Jim
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I'd agree - your medical is mana from heaven, so enjoy it and treat it like a gift that could disappear any day. Just remember that if you re-apply for that medical and get turned down, you can't fly LSA, but you're done flying - period. Better to just let it lapse and join us in the slow lane. ;)

Doug
 
And another thing - I think holding a FAA medical certificate actually makes you *less* healthy. I held off getting that blood pressure medication because I *knew* I would have to disclose it on my next medical and I dreaded what reaction that would generate from the Feds. Turns out I was right and they are now treating me like a stroke waiting to happen despite the fact that my (treated) BP is now below 120/80.

It's almost like they don't want Private Pilots like us flying. I remember when you basically just had to fog a mirror to get a 3rd class. Now I feel like you have to be test pilot healthy.

The LSA program is looking better and better every day.
 
Great points JimmyBob, that aspect of Sport Pilot is tailormade for pilots like yourself that have to face those concerns now and for all the rest of the pilots that will have to face it sooner or later.
 
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And the main point here is that you may lose it sooner than you think. I really didn't think I'd have to deal with this until my 60's, if then. This experience is an unpleasant surprise.

Jim
 
JimmyBob, your experience should be a wake up call to every pilot out there. Age and 'current' health play no part in what you may have to face in the near future. A bump on the head from a simple fall could end your PP flying days.
 
Mike Armstrong said:
JimmyBob, your experience should be a wake up call to every pilot out there. Age and 'current' health play no part in what you may have to face in the near future. A bump on the head from a simple fall could end your PP flying days.
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Agreed - this is why my father, who just got his ticket this year at the age of 62, went for his SP and ordered an LSA. He didn't want to buy or build an aircraft that he might have to give up without any real notice.
 
RV vs R2160

Maybe economics are different in Europe. I am a PP with 1000 hours and own a Robin R2160. Approaching retirement, I can no longer afford around $22-24K a year to fly 100 hours in a certificated aircraft.

I am willing to trade a year to build an RV-12. I can use the capital from the Robin to basically do a straight swap. And the running costs will be halved if I can use mogas and take the plane home.

The RV will be the same size, fly just as far and just as fast, hold almost as much baggage. Only downside is it won't be aerobatic.

Horses for courses...
 
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