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Van's Files for Reorganization Under Chapter 11

Van's Aircraft Values

An item in the financials submitted to the court is the fixed asset value of their aircraft at $53,343. Presumably this includes the RV-15 prototype and an RV-9A that I believe they own, plus other model demonstrators. The value seems low, unless there is some other ownership structure for the fleet?
 
PaulvS said:
An item in the financials submitted to the court is the fixed asset value of their aircraft at $53,343. Presumably this includes the RV-15 prototype and an RV-9A that I believe they own, plus other model demonstrators. The value seems low, unless there is some other ownership structure for the fleet?
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Perhaps for tax purposes, they are depreciating the cost of the aircraft as a business expense. That may be their current book value after any depreciation.
 
I always took the view that this was principally an LCP / QB shipping / QB primer issue with major one-off costs resulting from the consequences of poor business decisions.

Never really bought the 'selling below cost' line coming from Van's, except with respect to QB shipping costs and that was just a really poor decision to bake unpredictable future expense into pricing.

The financial statements confirm it.

Contrary to the narrative flying around, if you look at some numbers then Van's pricing has actually kept step with inflation to a sensible degree in the last few years. The total kit cost of a standard build RV-7 increased approximately 25% from 2020 to 2023.

What they failed to do was use pricing to manage demand - they could always have lowered prices if demand later softened. They didn't have the business understanding to realise that a large backlog has risks attached. To the uninitiated, a large backlog of orders sounds like a brilliant thing with no downsides.
 
Parts price increase

I've just checked the store for the LCPs I need replaced, and found that all the parts I looked at have gone up 75%. They're still indicated as 'Back ordered', though.

Note with the recent kit price increase announcement that there's still no mention of how they're going to be handling the LCP issue. This is going to be critical to keeping out of Chapter 7, so it's important to know before people start renewing their contracts, right? We've got to trust that Van's will really be recovering, or we're risking throwing good money after bad. Also, the lack of real escrow on future deposits and final payments doesn't help with the trust factor, either.
 
GrahamF said:
What they failed to do was use pricing to manage demand - they could always have lowered prices if demand later softened. They didn't have the business understanding to realise that a large backlog has risks attached. To the uninitiated, a large backlog of orders sounds like a brilliant thing with no downsides.
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A large backlog is not a problem if you have a way to raise the final delivery price to current numbers at the time of delivery - that was the key piece they were missing. Vans was trying to hold the sale price at the same time the manufacturing cost was skyrocketing. Poor accounting hid the problem until the music stopped.
 
airguy said:
A large backlog is not a problem if you have a way to raise the final delivery price to current numbers at the time of delivery - that was the key piece they were missing. Vans was trying to hold the sale price at the same time the manufacturing cost was skyrocketing. Poor accounting hid the problem until the music stopped.
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There are multiple risks that carrying a large order backlog can entail, not all of them obvious. Many may be highly unlikely, but there are many unknowns and the longer it gets the greater the chance of any of them coming to pass.

At this point it's very little to do with aircraft and all to do with business.
 
airguy said:
A large backlog is not a problem if you have a way to raise the final delivery price to current numbers at the time of delivery
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True...IF you also agree, are able, and are legally bound to give back deposits in full should the customer refuse the higher price. There isn't any way to sugar coat what they did...
 
What about pre BK accounting errors?

Regarding communication. Per an arrangement with Vans, they agreed to not ship my wings (LCP issues) and I have never received my QB wings, yet their Kit Status records say I did. Multiple follow up emails and phone calls failed to get any response. Obviously a shipping department/ kit status records issue at Vans which pre -dates the BK. How do I get them to address my issue at this point? Anyone know who I should send my demand letter to? Thank you all in advance for advice.
 
flyinlow74 said:
Regarding communication. Per an arrangement with Vans, they agreed to not ship my wings (LCP issues) and I have never received my QB wings, yet their Kit Status records say I did. Multiple follow up emails and phone calls failed to get any response. Obviously a shipping department/ kit status records issue at Vans which pre -dates the BK. How do I get them to address my issue at this point? Anyone know who I should send my demand letter to? Thank you all in advance for advice.
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I'm in a similar boat. My SB wing kit was cleared from their inventory but not released for my will call pick up right at the start of this mess. I have all the emails with Kim. But Kim apparently left.
 
Chargebacks

I think an interesting part of all this is the CC chargebacks, and what that is going to do with Vans plan.

Are the people pursuing a chargeback not continuing with their build? I ask because, eventually Vans will figure out who has a completed or pending chargeback, and that will cancel the contract, deposit or full amount. Yes that will get the builder their money back, but what does that mean if they want to continue with their build.

If they received a kit, and the chargeback is due to the LCP, then what does that do to any obligation Vans has to provide replacement parts? I suppose they could use the recovered funds to buy the needed parts from the store. However that does not appear fair to Vans, as the chargeback refund should only be for the replacement parts, or is that the amount people are asking for?

This all assumes the chargebacks are successful. Has anyone complete the process with a favorable outcome? I know the CC companies typically credit the charge in question right after the case is open, but that does not mean you get to keep it, if the eventual outcome is not in your favor.
 
Many companies refuse to do further business with someone that has prosecuted a chargeback against them. It works both ways.
 
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Please don't do chargebacks. They really do impact the company's ability to accept credit cards going forward.

Use them for fraud, not honest mistakes. Van's didn't set out to cause any of this frustration - maybe they could have done better or communicated more consistently, but they don't deserve chargebacks.
 
inktomi said:
Please don't do chargebacks. They really do impact the company's ability to accept credit cards going forward.

Use them for fraud, not honest mistakes. Van's didn't set out to cause any of this frustration - maybe they could have done better or communicated more consistently, but they don't deserve chargebacks.
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Chargebacks are not just for fraud, they are designed to the protect the card holder against whatever 'honest mistakes' might cause a vendor to fail to deliver on their contract, including unwillingness to rectify such honest mistakes at the vendor's cost.

As to its intended purpose, it absolutely does cover things like LCP where the vendor might argue the parts are satisfactory and the contract fulfilled but the card holder takes the view that they are neither as described nor fit for purpose. The intention of the facility is to redress an otherwise one-sided balance of power in a dispute situation, and place an onus on vendors to justify their position to the credit card company if they wish to keep the funds.

When vendors make a decision to accept credit cards they accept a customer's right to do this (right to issue the chargeback and make a claim, not the final outcome) in the event of a dispute. A vendor may of course elect not to do further business with a customer who makes use of such rights - that is their absolute right - and it's up to each to make their own decisions about which bridges can be burned and which cannot.

Customers in the UK have more extensive protections. Beyond a standard chargeback (which I believe is time limited), they can make a claim under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which makes a credit card provider jointly and severally liable for any misrepresentation or breach of contract by a vendor. This has no time limit and applies to any credit card transaction between £100 and £30,000, and crucially applies to purchases made anywhere in the world.

In essence the credit card provider is liable to the customer as though it itself were the vendor and, if the claim stands, must refund the customer regardless of the situation with the vendor.

It then typically becomes a matter between the credit card company and the vendor, and is no longer the customer's concern. The question here is whether a UK credit card company (it is the card provider - typically a bank - not VISA / AmEx/ Mastercard) would bother going after a foreign company that was subject to bankruptcy proceedings. My hunch is they would just write it off as bad debt and the vendor would never know what had happened.

Chargebacks of all sorts do indeed pose a threat to Van's intended plan of recovery, both from the amounts they might lose directly and their future ability to accept credit cards for payment. I imagine those who came up with a plan which included leaving many customers out of pocket factored this into their calculations and accepted this risk.

They cannot have been so naïve as to think that while the company exerted its rights to the maximum under the provisions of Chapter 11 and left customers out of pocket, customers would in turn refrain from exerting their own rights as some sort of gesture of good will.
 
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Slow Down

All the talk about chargebacks, I get that everyone has a bad taste in their mouth right now about Van's. I think we are all still very unsure as to exactly what the offers of price change and contract renegotiation are going to be. Can we just slow down a little on the things that might make the situation worse until we know what we are dealing with?

Sure I think Van's has made mistakes, but I don't think they made any with ill intentions. By all accounts they still seem to be a company that cares about its products and its customers, and is trying to do its best to rectify the situation. But as my grandfather always said when a mechanic made a mistake and caused more damage to a tractor or failed to fix what he was intending to. "We all pay for the mistakes of the mechanic, but we bury the mistakes of the doctor."
 
Certainly no ill intent by Van's here but the bottom line here is they have a contract with deposit holders. Simply put, a legal obligation to either fulfill that contract or refund the deposit money.

If they don't do either, they must expect the customer to take any and all remedies available to the customer.
 
Is anyone having luck with CC chargebacks? I pretty much want nothing to do with these jokers anymore so it’s worth a shot I guess.
 
rv6ejguy said:
Certainly no ill intent by Van's here but the bottom line here is they have a contract with deposit holders. Simply put, a legal obligation to either fulfill that contract or refund the deposit money.

If they don't do either, they must expect the customer to take any and all remedies available to the customer.
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Except they were granted a motion to reject these contracts leaving the customer with the option of agreeing to a new contract with significantly different terms & price or filing an unsecured claim.
 
Brantel said:
Except they were granted a motion to reject these contracts leaving the customer with the option of agreeing to a new contract with significantly different terms & price or filing an unsecured claim.
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Someone with a detailed knowledge of how US credit cards work would need to advise whether a Chapter 11 filing and such subsequent court order can evaporate a card holder's rights like that.
 
*not an expert* so it seems that the credit card or card issuer takes on the liability as a creditor and can ultimately make the claim as an unsecured creditor. I’m guessing this is probably written off as a loss, or if a small claim is ever paid back to the card issuer, the rest of the cost is then passed along to everyone else in the form of fees and interest rates, etc.

The end consumer always pays, one way or another.
 
They are under Chapter 11 Reorganization protection. Credit card company will do nothing. Van has NOT defaulted on your claim for refund or filling order... you have to wait for them to come out of Chapt 11.

Am I missing something?

You all are writing like Van's will not fill outstanding orders? As far as I know they are.

You all think Van's will not replace parts that are bad? I thought they are reviewing and will make it right.

Regarding cancelation of your order, thought you could, just need to wait for awhile. I could be wrong.
.
NOTE cost of a sub kit or few sub kits or even whole kit is tiny compared to total build cost. Not saying it does not suck, but if you are bailing on project, you will need to wait to recoup funds.
 
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GrahamF said:
….
Customers in the UK have more extensive protections. Beyond a standard chargeback (which I believe is time limited), they can make a claim under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which makes a credit card provider jointly and severally liable for any misrepresentation or breach of contract by a vendor. This has no time limit and applies to any credit card transaction between £100 and £30,000, and crucially applies to purchases made anywhere in the world.
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Ok, that pretty much explains why CC terms are so much worse in UK vs USA - “protections” are never free and are always priced in into the deal …
 
Jonnyb said:
Can I ask what the time line is for a chapter 11 bankruptcy? Do we expect Vans to emerge quite soon? Or does this process take years? What do Vans have to do/show to be able to emerge from bankruptcy?
As a Brit I have no idea how this all works, so if anyone can give the basics that would be really helpful!
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It can certainly vary. But from my one experience in a firm I worked for (I was there before, through, and out the other side of the reorganization), anyone that expects this will all be resolved in 3 months is smoking something.

But put yourself into someone's shoes. You come in as the turn-around manager and need to come up to speed on the company, understand the problems, uncover the not yet recognized problems, develop a plan, propose that to the court, await approval, and execute. And don't rush this. If you emerge from protection too quickly and didn't understand *all* of the problems you'll be right back into the red ink in nothing flat. Keep in mind you'll be presented 'the financials' which may have built in problems. Can you trust them or does someone have to go do a deep dive into the accounting? [I'd say yes] Once you emerge from protection how long before you face a group lawsuit about LCP? THAT will probably be the biggest factor in how long before you can exit bankruptcy.
 
maxmirot said:
Part of the reason to go into CH11 is avoid liability.
A suit wound be dismissed
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I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the last couple of posts. Breaking contracts and a blanket protection from lawsuits are only some of the benefits you get in Bankruptcy ( and yes even chapter 11 is called Bankruptcy no reason to sugar code it either).

The AOPA video which went over some of this ended by pointing out that consultations on Van’s bankruptcy are covered under their legal protection plan. So if you have that plan instead of listening to me just call AOPA and talk to a lawyer.

Oliver
 
@gmcjetpilot

Hey, I largely agree with you. I think the company will come out fine, and have said so. Yes they have come up with an *initial* plan. [You can't do nothing to stem the problems while you analyze] But I really doubt all the analysis is in.

Section violating the rules removed.
 
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Interesting that the latest filing contains basically Van’s customer list with name and current and/or former address no matter if you have a claim or not. Surprised that the personal details don’t get redacted in proceedings like that.

Oliver
 
spatsch said:
Interesting that the latest filing contains basically Van’s customer list with name and current and/or former address no matter if you have a claim or not. Surprised that the personal details don’t get redacted in proceedings like that.

Oliver
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It is a little jarring to see 41k peoples info. I wonder what precedent they would have to have used when filing to get that stuff non publicly releasable.
 
RV8JD said:
YOU MAY HAVE A CLAIM AGAINST DEBTOR:

Debtor has been producing aircraft components and kits since 1972. Throughout this time, Debtor has issued a number of service bulletins, safety directives, safety alerts, notifications, service letters, and change notices that relate to a number of potential issues including, but not limited to, corrosion, coverage of primer, cracks in structural components and laser cut parts, leaking radiators and fuel tanks, flutter related events, fire and carbon monoxide protection, landing gear failures, pitot static systems, fatigue cracking in various components, canopy or door latch systems, rollover protection, and brake pedal design. In addition, issues have been discussed on vansairforce.net about improper design or defect in Debtor’s parts and components. You may also have experienced issues with other parts or devices or may do so in the future. The definition of Claim includes any and all claims of any kind or nature whatsoever that you may have with respect to the above or any other issues involving Debtor, either now existing or arising the future, related in any way to Debtor or its products, services, activities, or of any other kind and nature against Debtor even if presently unliquidated, contingent, unmatured, disputed, undisputed, legal, equitable, secured, or unsecured.”[/I][/INDENT]
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Does anyone know if this supersedes the liability release signed by all builders? https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Vans-Aircraft-Liability-Waiver-Rev-8.2.pdf
 
I suspect the entire home-building movement is going to change drastically in the near future. The cost of building has gone from affordable for many, to out of reach of most. I built my 7 raising 3 kids on ‘blue collar’ wages, a new engine now costs almost as much as I spent on my complete aircraft which included a new engine and Hartzell. I feel extremely fortunate I got into this game when I did, no way could I afford it in today’s market. Today’s average young worker can’t even afford to own a home, this hobby has unfortunately moved to the 1 percenters. Heck some folks are spending as much on their paint jobs and interior then it cost me to build the airplane, times are a changin.
 
georgemohr said:
Im curious if customers with open orders/deposits/payments should file a claim here or not, at this time?
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My understanding is that you are listed in the creditors list if you have a pending order (my case).

However I do have complete orders that were shipped with LCP. I assume that for those, I do have to file a claim.

Any lawyer here to give us an opinion?
 
apicreator said:
My understanding is that you are listed in the creditors list if you have a pending order (my case).

However I do have complete orders that were shipped with LCP. I assume that for those, I do have to file a claim.

Any lawyer here to give us an opinion?
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I don’t think you will get individualized legal advice on a bulletin board.

Now in my none expert opinion I would think that “ any and all claims of any kind” means any and all claims of any kind. If you are already covered somewhere else your claim will just be denied so I would file if in doubt. In either case your deadline is 2/12 so you can wait a bit and see what other motions the court approves before then which might resolve your issue.

Oliver
 
I got the letter today... Van's owes me nothing, kit bought and paid for long ago, pre laser cut parts. I have no outstanding parts, baseball cap, nothing.

Reading above comments of "should I". In my opinion if I were you FOLLOW THE LETTER. Send in your claim before Feb 12, 2024.... via certified mail and document it well. After Feb 12, 2024 you may not be able to make a claim as I read it.
 
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Doc #55 includes, amongst other things, the personal addresses for all employees and all past and current customers so I have deleted all those pages. I am also including Doc #54, which goes over the financial affairs of the company, including revenues, those lucky few that have money held in escrow, the new management and stockholders list (with percentages), list of vendors paid in the 90 days before bankruptcy, and payments made to insiders within 1 year of filing. The last two groups of people may have some of that money clawed back into the bankruptcy estate due to the bankruptcy rules.
 

Attachments

bmellis11 said:
Doc #55 includes, amongst other things, the personal addresses for all employees and all past and current customers so I have deleted all those pages. I am also including Doc #54, which goes over the financial affairs of the company, including revenues, those lucky few that have money held in escrow, the new management and stockholders list (with percentages), list of vendors paid in the 90 days before bankruptcy, and payments made to insiders within 1 year of filing. The last two groups of people may have some of that money clawed back into the bankruptcy estate due to the bankruptcy rules.
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Thank you 👍
 
bmellis11 said:
Doc #55 includes, amongst other things, the personal addresses for all employees and all past and current customers so I have deleted all those pages.
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Y'all might as well stop worrying about this every time another document gets filed that lists this info. Court records are, in general, public documents and anyone can see them. You're only deleting them from *this* website, not from the court docket nor the BMC site, from where anyone in the entire world can download them.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Y'all might as well stop worrying about this every time another document gets filed that lists this info. Court records are, in general, public documents and anyone can see them. You're only deleting them from *this* website, not from the court docket nor the BMC site, from where anyone in the entire world can download them.
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People have asked me to remove sensitive information so I remove it to respect their privacy. I know the docs are available in other places, but it's possible that the document contents are not indexed by the search engines whereas the attachments here may be indexed. I'm not sure, but err on the side of privacy.
 
bmellis11 said:
People have asked me to remove sensitive information so I remove it to respect their privacy. I know the docs are available in other places, but it's possible that the document contents are not indexed by the search engines whereas the attachments here may be indexed. I'm not sure, but err on the side of privacy.
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Looks like Hamstreet is already a big winner in all of this. As I suspected they would be.
 
cactusman said:
Looks like Hamstreet is already a big winner in all of this. As I suspected they would be.
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Yeah, anyone involved in the reorganization (e.g., restructuring consultants, attorneys, trustees, DIP lenders) always win in bankruptcy. Sometimes makes me think I went into the wrong business.
 
I'm not sure what happened with the Dynon $ or any other plans...but it strikes me that a better plan would have been to sell off part of the company to someone who could infuse cash, make the necessary price increases and changes going forward, and keep the existing customer base happy.

But instead, it looks like close to $1 million has already been spent on the new VA leadership team fees and salary in the past 60 days. Tough asking your customers to pony up while it appears some are making hay.

I'm gonna say it - not sure how a company survives by alienating their existing customers who have already given them money and have been patiently waiting for their orders to be fulfilled.

Imagine if every airline sold tickets and then declared BK and told every passenger who showed up to the airport if they actually want to fly it will cost you 40% more. I don't think any of those airlines would still be around.
 
I think that's the exact point they should focus. Customer.

I checked the papers above and I noticed that they have not made an appraisal of about 10 aircrafts they own and none to the intellectual proprietary. There is equity left in the company, and an outside investor and happy customer base, is a better way to move forward rather the current path where you alienate you customers by binding them to variable pricing or risk get pennies, and by not answering to the questions.

I am happy to support Vans moving forward and pay the extra costs, but I would like to have some answers to the questions I've sent (via their new platform) so they can gain my confidence and we move forward on how their new restructuring leadership team decides.

cactusman said:
I'm not sure what happened with the Dynon $ or any other plans...but it strikes me that a better plan would have been to sell off part of the company to someone who could infuse cash, make the necessary price increases and changes going forward, and keep the existing customer base happy.

But instead, it looks like close to $1 million has already been spent on the new VA leadership team fees and salary in the past 60 days. Tough asking your customers to pony up while it appears some are making hay.

I'm gonna say it - not sure how a company survives by alienating their existing customers who have already given them money and have been patiently waiting for their orders to be fulfilled.

Imagine if every airline sold tickets and then declared BK and told every passenger who showed up to the airport if they actually want to fly it will cost you 40% more. I don't think any of those airlines would still be around.
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Unsecured Loans

apicreator said:
I think that's the exact point they should focus. Customer.

I checked the papers above and I noticed that they have not made an appraisal of about 10 aircrafts they own and none to the intellectual proprietary. There is equity left in the company, and an outside investor and happy customer base, is a better way to move forward rather the current path where you alienate you customers by binding them to variable pricing or risk get pennies, and by not answering to the questions.

I am happy to support Vans moving forward and pay the extra costs, but I would like to have some answers to the questions I've sent (via their new platform) so they can gain my confidence and we move forward on how their new restructuring leadership team decides.
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Did you notice that Van also has significant unsecured loans for the purchase of the Trumf 500 punch machines. I would guess that all repayments and interest on those loans are now frozen. The 10% interest on the secured loans doesn't seem so out of line when offset in the total loan picture.
 
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