Van's Air Force
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Vans blocking QB to SB conversions
- Thread starter lyosha
- Start date
Which builder? Got a reference?
I had a conversation with them today at 8 AM Pacific on the phone where what I was told that "currently told to say no but not sure" and "we'll give your contact info to Greg Hughes" (he has yet to use it).
Independently, someone named "Reanaissance Sean" posted on Facebook that he was flat out told "either pay more or lose it" sometime later in the day. No clue who that person is.
I know there's more than two of us that looked at the price increases and said "I can't afford QB anymore". Anyone else want to try and see what message you get?
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Ah. They added that recently.
Interesting, I hadn't seen that.
I guess Vans doesn't want to get stuck with a bunch of QB kits in inventory.
JonJay
Well Known Member
With LCP’s intermixed in assembly, making it builders job to remediate. So, you’re right.
Will be interesting to see how their projections from QB cashflows compare to realized cashflows. Seems they're taking the most liberties with their QB customers, both in terms of price increases and demands from the builders.
That is de facto loaning my previous deposit and adding another 35% of a new one to a bankrupt company, with the company having the right to say "we're going to pay you 1% of your first deposit back" in court.
A lot more unknowns and risks in that scenario. But I have been mulling over it as a Jan 14 option.
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Not dumb, IMO. The first ~$3,500 of a deposit (don't remember the exact number) is considered priority in the settlement.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
I think the dumb part comes into play when he has to give a bankrupt company another deposit which who knows what will happen to it or when he'll get his SB kit.
I agree, throwing good money after bad isn't usually a smart thing to do.
I was inclined to give vans the benefit of the doubt, but the price increases aren't appropriate (cowls double the price of aftermarket, and $17k for 2 seats!). And the strategies to force accepting these bs costs (no kit deletions, no QB to SB changes) are frankly un-ethical. It's going to hurt vendors that supply components to vans and aftermarket suppliers too.
On the other hand there may be a new market for supplying aftermarket FWF and finishing kits. welding up mounts and frames, laying up cowls and trim, and molding canopies really isn't that hard. Particularly after you've made the molds and jigs. Then the only thing for vans to sell would be the part they are tooled for, and good at, the sheet metal.
If I'm ever able to afford an RV it will be by buying second hand kits and parts, and fabricating whatever I cant find second hand.
I was inclined to give vans the benefit of the doubt, but the price increases aren't appropriate (cowls double the price of aftermarket, and $17k for 2 seats!). And the strategies to force accepting these bs costs (no kit deletions, no QB to SB changes) are frankly un-ethical. It's going to hurt vendors that supply components to vans and aftermarket suppliers too.
On the other hand there may be a new market for supplying aftermarket FWF and finishing kits. welding up mounts and frames, laying up cowls and trim, and molding canopies really isn't that hard. Particularly after you've made the molds and jigs. Then the only thing for vans to sell would be the part they are tooled for, and good at, the sheet metal.
If I'm ever able to afford an RV it will be by buying second hand kits and parts, and fabricating whatever I cant find second hand.
As part of the plan moving forward, Vans has promised that new deposits will sit in a separate account and not be co-mingled with the cash for operating costs. Granted, it's not a 3rd party escrow account, but it instills a bit more confidence than what they've done in the past. I'd probably give it a year for them to emerge from bankruptcy, or at least until it's apparent that they're profitable again.
Frankly without a contractual commitment to not touch those funds, it is really no different than saying sorry, will try harder not to lose your money next time. Clearly, trying is not enough, as we have to assume they were trying to stay solvent last time. Escrow accounts would instill more confidence. Still hoping Vans makes it, but we need to provide realistic guidance to our fellow VAF'ers and the separate bank account in and of itself should not inspire a great deal of confidence. Not at all saying we shouldn't trust them, but they need to rebuild that trust via their actions and that involves more than a separate bank acct. Just look at the trillions in credit card debt. It seems these days it is almost acceptable to keep spending until you are cut off. I fear the term "budget" is not even understood by many in this country anymore.
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Unfortunately Vans promises do not hold a lot of weight with me at the moment. Legal structures that would inhibit loss of funds would. However I don't see what is in place for the funds in the "separate bank account" going to the DIP (currently Van) should Chapter 7 be filed. Maybe there is something, but I just don't see it.
This isn't to say anyone is doing something bad. But given the current situation on the ground I have a strong preference for being more safe than less safe. Think of it as flying IFR. Would you rather fly with backup instruments or without them?
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Wow, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Unless the deposit contract spells out what they'll do with that money and how it's protected, sorry, no more money going that way for you.
It is a court ordered escrow account, and I believe the court documents specify the money is owned by the customer.
Is it? Because that would be news to a lot of people. Can you point to the document that spells this out?
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
When I call a company and ask a question, when I get a reply that includes "I believe" or "it should be" or "usually" or "It's always been done that way", I ask to speak with someone else or I ask get it in writing.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Perhaps this will offer some insight:
https://vansairforce.net/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=52105&d=1701758194
Page 2, paragraph 6.
Also, Exhibit One, page 1, same link as above.
Chapter 7 would be a different situation, but let's give Chapter 11 time to play out.
https://vansairforce.net/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=52105&d=1701758194
Page 2, paragraph 6.
Also, Exhibit One, page 1, same link as above.
Chapter 7 would be a different situation, but let's give Chapter 11 time to play out.
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Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
I think the IFR flying strawman still applies. The word "intends" does not have any legal binding power. Vans intended to be profitable. But it is currently bankrupt.
None of your instruments intend to fail on you. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to be prepared.
Has anyone been able to confirm if the QB's they intend to ship actually have LCP? They could have set QB's with LCP aside since they don't appear to have a remedy and focused their attention on driving cash flow selling kits with no issues. I haven't been able to find any information to determine if they are going to ship kits with issues or not, has anyone else?
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
I think that would be a significant question to get answered when deciding how to proceed. Accepting a 35-70% price increase on an item that would need to be re-built would be a hard pill to swallow!
finack
Member
I called and asked about QB & LCP yesterday. Here is what I was told.
- QB will be shipped with LCP remediated (I could not get specifics on this)
- You can not switch from a QB to SB because they are not allowed to during bankruptcy
- Sounded like an option where you could request the QB and do remediation yourself but I did not dig into the comment
- They can not commit to when these would ship or be available
I'd be curious to see your math on how you arrived at that conclusion.
Building a 10 right now, with LCP in inventory, I do have a dog in that fight.
Anybody have an update on these questions? I asked similar questions on the bankruptcy portal back on Dec 19 and there is still no response.
