"We're glad to bring you an update on business operations and progress in the restructuring plan, some numbers around the reorder rates and shipping, plus some news about reopening factory tours and demo flights - among other things."
Van's Air Force
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Van's Aircraft Business Update - February 17th (video)
- Thread starter DeltaRomeo
- Start date
"We're glad to bring you an update on business operations and progress in the restructuring plan, some numbers around the reorder rates and shipping, plus some news about reopening factory tours and demo flights - among other things."
You beat me to it, Doug. 
A few facts and figures.
We stated in official documents that our target was at least 70% reorder rate. The reorders are still happening, and we've exceeded the target numbers. A few figures:
81% of kit orders have been renewed
78+% of kits reordered
93% of engines reordered
We can and will keep reorders open until 11:50PM Pacific time on Thursday, February 22nd. After that, all remaining open orders will be canceled.
Demos flights and tours at the factory in Oregon will start back up on March 4th. We look forward to seeing you!
A few facts and figures.
We stated in official documents that our target was at least 70% reorder rate. The reorders are still happening, and we've exceeded the target numbers. A few figures:
81% of kit orders have been renewed
78+% of kits reordered
93% of engines reordered
We can and will keep reorders open until 11:50PM Pacific time on Thursday, February 22nd. After that, all remaining open orders will be canceled.
Demos flights and tours at the factory in Oregon will start back up on March 4th. We look forward to seeing you!
We have teams working on delivery schedules now, and will communicate that info as soon as we have it down solid. That is true for kits as well as engines and propellers.
The Van's and Lycoming teams are working through the many details that define that schedule, and we don't yet have the details to share but as soon as it's available it will be communicated by Lycoming and/or Van's. I know both Lycoming's and Van's team have been overwhelmed with calls and emails asking about schedules -- Please know that as soon as the details are available you will hear from us, and our folks don't yet have the information to share. I'd just ask that you let the teams work on the details knowing they'll be reaching out as soon as they are able. They really want to be able to let you know and are working hard on the plan. Thank you for your patience on this!
I appreciate the video very much. The tone of positivity is encouraging. The best part of the video is seeing actual Vans employees getting it done. Thank you!
What about Rotax? Always hear a lot about Lycoming but not as much about Rotax. I happen to have an RV-12iS fuselage waiting for an engine.
Rotax engines are generally available with a fairly short lead time. The other components (many of them) of the powerplant kit vary in availability. But we are doing the planning for these and will be communicating the schedule as soon as we are able! The team is actively working on kit delivery timeline planning. We will certainly let everyone know when think of is all set and available.What about Rotax? Always hear a lot about Lycoming but not as much about Rotax. I happen to have an RV-12iS fuselage waiting for an engine.
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93% engine reorder isn’t surprising given the “rock or hard place” scenario that builders found themselves in. I think a poll of “I didn’t want to get completely hosed” or “I’m glad to support with an extra 12% fee” will show that the 93% number isn’t a reflection of excitement but rather of self preservation.
CaptPausert
Active Member
Hey Greg just an FYI the prices on the RV-9A in the kit prices and lead times sheet do not match the prices on the order forms. I am guessing the prices on the order forms are correct but it is a bit confusing. Thanks
Vans Aircraft is also in that same "Rock or a hard place" position. Nobody made a conscious choice to arrive at this point, but here we are and hard choices have to be made. The alternative is that you don't build a Vans Aircraft anymore - either because they don't exist, or you can't/won't accept the terms.
Vans has at least managed to maintain a positive attitude in all their communications.
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Management made ALL the decisions that led to this point. That’s how we got here. Covid, supply chain etc etc , was not navigated successfully. Plenty of other companies that did navigate successfully.
No, they didn’t actively engage in deliberate terrible decisions hoping for a terrible outcome. Pretty sure that’s not the consensus.
it’s not Covid or supply chains fault, those were just catalysts which revealed management’s shortcomings.
We’re here because they were not the right people for the job.
Results speak for themselves.
Great news Greg,You beat me to it, Doug.
A few facts and figures.
We stated in official documents that our target was at least 70% reorder rate. The reorders are still happening, and we've exceeded the target numbers. A few figures:
81% of kit orders have been renewed
78+% of kits reordered
93% of engines reordered
We can and will keep reorders open until 11:50PM Pacific time on Thursday, February 22nd. After that, all remaining open orders will be canceled.
Demos flights and tours at the factory in Oregon will start back up on March 4th. We look forward to seeing you!
How goes the selection/installation of an ERP system at Vans?
This is probably the second most important thing they need - behind operating capital.
At least the vast majority of what you said above is true, and I think most of us know that. But, the Van's employees are humans too, and like all of us, they make mistakes. Knowing some of the Van's staff that I suspect you're directing your message to, and even calling them friends, I think it's safe to say that they feel awful about it. If they could take it back, they would of course do so.
I think that there's no doubt that Van's had more to learn about business than they thought that they did, and Van himself basically admits that in the video when he talks about their "tribal knowledge," and learning more from the experts that they've brought in.
The past is the past, and I'd just ask that we be mindful of the fact that while what has happened at Van's hurts us, their customers, it hurts the employees at Van's as well. Arguably, in many ways, more than it hurts us. Can you imagine having some of the weight of Van's bankruptcy on your shoulders?? Can you imagine working in the shipping department, possibly supporting your family with your salary, and not knowing for sure whether you'd have a job tomorrow? This is serious stuff.
It's fine to blame Van's, because this is, after all, on them. It's fine to be angry. But it's more productive to move forward. Let's try to be mindful that it is in all of our best interests to work together to help Van's be a healthier, better company moving forward. I'd suggest that we all do what we can to help them be the best that they can be.
Jetmart
Well Known Member
Anyone. What is the difference between 81% of kit orders have been renewed versus 78+% of kits reordered? Renewed vs. Reordered?
Greg this is all great news. My concern is that 9% of LCP have shipped, which doesn't seem like they are getting much attention? Also, I have yet to be contacted by anyone about my kits that I have been trying to work around bad parts & I'm fast approaching a work stop. On a different subject, the latest LCP list (7.2) seems to have parts missing from the RV-8 list? I appreciate all the work you and your team are doing in turning this around and wish you continued success.You beat me to it, Doug.
No kidding - “we want updates”, Vans provides them - and it turns into Vans sucks! Jeez -the glass isn’t even half empty - there was never anything in the glass. Makes me wonder why they still are here. Play golf!
Good news Greg…
georgemohr
Well Known Member
Super encouraging to hear this news, thanks for sharing it.
georgemohr
Well Known Member
Couldn't agree more. The folks that have had it with this project have said everything there is to say. It's time to either move on, or stay in.
Great video. I'm not 'building' any longer, so the factory issues don't necessarily affect me, per se. But I'm glad things are progressing in a positive manner because we all need to purchase parts from Van's and always will - we all will need to if you own an RV. It's nice to see Van react positively in the video (as well as Greg, of course). Clearly this has been really tough on both of them, and undoubtedly there were some dark moments in the past few months for everyone at Van's Aircraft. But it's really encouraging that they see a light at the end of tunnel and their normal activities seem to be coming back on board soon - factory tours, demo flights, fly-in appearances, RV-15 things, RV-12 aircraft builds. That's a lot to manage and coordinate but it all seems to be in the mix, which is refreshing to say the least.
Actually the fifth post?
Just threw out a number, not a particular post.
I think Vans should be commended for being open and above board with their dealings. I have had companies just "disappear" into bankruptcy with no messages, no contact information, and no hope of reclaiming a significant portion of a deposit. I'm surprised that there isn't a larger outcry about places that decide not to support very expensive equipment any longer and don't go out of their way to help the people who own that equipment. Just my thoughts YMMV.
I’m in the same boat. Is there anyone at Van’s or Lycoming who can give us even a ballpark figure? Greg???
PaulvS
Well Known Member
Thanks for the update to show that the brave are still there and working hard to keep the flag flying. I liked that this video felt authentic and not too scripted.
I hope that there will soon be a future update to introduce the current management team. We know from court documents that there is a new CEO and CFO and COO. It would be good to hear their thoughts and philosophies on what they are planning to do to help return Van's to a reliable and profitable organization. The Consultant has been working with the tribe for several months now and they must have formed a reasonably good idea of what are their short term and long term priorities. Sharing some of this information would surely help the cause.
I hope that there will soon be a future update to introduce the current management team. We know from court documents that there is a new CEO and CFO and COO. It would be good to hear their thoughts and philosophies on what they are planning to do to help return Van's to a reliable and profitable organization. The Consultant has been working with the tribe for several months now and they must have formed a reasonably good idea of what are their short term and long term priorities. Sharing some of this information would surely help the cause.
In the video they mention that the recovery plan will be filed in March.
Yes, the plan is due March 4th currently. The court may give an extension if needed, however watching the video makes me want to think Van wants to get past this as quickly as possible. Before completion of the plan, all the claims must be vetted and tallied up. This includes the ESOP/ERISA claims. Van's has filed with the BK court to hire an additional special counsel to deal with the ESOP. We know that claims are likely to take several years to pay out, but Hammstreet was optimistic that they would be paid. The timeline will be in the plan. So now that I have accepted my new engine order (Rotax), back ordered parts are shipping, and an LCP replacement order is completed, all I have left to do is wait and be patient. It appears to me the folks at the factory are going full tilt to meet their obligations. I am happy to have seen the update, its a positive step in the right direction.
Has there been an update on how the existing QB inventory is being handled? I may have missed it
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
I saw video. Very encouraging. It was the customers that stuck it out and people double downed on their orders and staff sticking with it that are the key, along with price stability from vendors. All good (as it can be for such a difficult situation.)
While I am happy that the numbers are exceeding the expectations and it does appear that vans is heading towards a recovery, I do feel like the discounting the opinions of those of us who are paying for their bad decisions is in very poor taste.
Sure. We have the option to scrap or sell the half built kits that we have worked diligently on for years, but realistically we have no good options. I am three kits in with another that has been on order for two years. What am I supposed to do except accept the increase and build on? The only option is to chance losing the deposit that is in as well as lose on the kits that I have completed.
I work with many companies in the metal fabrication world and many of them had very rocky times during Covid. The ones that did the best incorporated pricing policies that allowed them to make changes to final pricing once the raw materials to fill the orders had been procured. Customers didn’t enjoy not knowing their final pricing months before delivery, but the policy was clearly laid out and understood. Vans should have adopted a similar policy. Instead, they chose to accept orders at fixed prices and to ultimately default on those agreements. That was a poor management decision. The lack of supervision on the QB kits was also a poor decision. The LCP debacle was something that could have been predicted with more feedback from customers. As I understand it, vans stands behind the durability and longevity of the lcp parts and is doing what they are doing (replacing them) due to customer perception, rather than actual scientific data. Good on them for replacing the parts, but they got themselves in that situation due to improper planning and market research.
We have every right to be upset about the poor management decisions and the lack of their admitting that. From what I can see, they are acting like this was all just a series of unfortunate events. That is not the way that I see it.
I’m glad that they look like they are going to make it, but I’m not happy with those who downplay the serious penalties that those of us who are getting stuck with the bills are faced with. Y’all act like we are all supposed to be happy and cheerful about it or keep our mouths shut.
Sure. We have the option to scrap or sell the half built kits that we have worked diligently on for years, but realistically we have no good options. I am three kits in with another that has been on order for two years. What am I supposed to do except accept the increase and build on? The only option is to chance losing the deposit that is in as well as lose on the kits that I have completed.
I work with many companies in the metal fabrication world and many of them had very rocky times during Covid. The ones that did the best incorporated pricing policies that allowed them to make changes to final pricing once the raw materials to fill the orders had been procured. Customers didn’t enjoy not knowing their final pricing months before delivery, but the policy was clearly laid out and understood. Vans should have adopted a similar policy. Instead, they chose to accept orders at fixed prices and to ultimately default on those agreements. That was a poor management decision. The lack of supervision on the QB kits was also a poor decision. The LCP debacle was something that could have been predicted with more feedback from customers. As I understand it, vans stands behind the durability and longevity of the lcp parts and is doing what they are doing (replacing them) due to customer perception, rather than actual scientific data. Good on them for replacing the parts, but they got themselves in that situation due to improper planning and market research.
We have every right to be upset about the poor management decisions and the lack of their admitting that. From what I can see, they are acting like this was all just a series of unfortunate events. That is not the way that I see it.
I’m glad that they look like they are going to make it, but I’m not happy with those who downplay the serious penalties that those of us who are getting stuck with the bills are faced with. Y’all act like we are all supposed to be happy and cheerful about it or keep our mouths shut.
I see it a little differently. Everybody knows Vans made several poor decisions that lead to where we are now. Am I happy about that? Of course not. The problem I have is some folks just can't let go of this and continue to kick the horse loooooong after it's dead. Yes, people have a right to vent but it gets really old seeing the same negative posts over and over and over and over for months on end. Vans can't change the past and neither can we. It seems more constructive to focus on what Vans is now doing right - which is quite a bit! Should we cheer the company on or continue to criticize and break it down? At what point do we accept what happened and move on?
And just so you know - this bankruptcy affects me too. The bankruptcy has cost me $22,942 to date. I'm guessing it will be $25,000 before it's done.
georgemohr
Well Known Member
100% The situation is a sh*t sandwitch from which we all are having a bite (none more so than the people at Vans). Posting infinite complaints about the same thing accomplish nothing and just spread the misery. It's time to get onboard or move on.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Yep. It definitely sucks but continuously playing the “should have, would have, could” game gets really old.
If everyone saw this coming, wouldn’t it have made sense to let vans know or at least get out before the perceived inevitable occurred?
The past is gone, hindsight is 20/20, time to focus on the future…and yes, it is definitely more painful for some.
If everyone saw this coming, wouldn’t it have made sense to let vans know or at least get out before the perceived inevitable occurred?
The past is gone, hindsight is 20/20, time to focus on the future…and yes, it is definitely more painful for some.
Some will always dwell on misfortune. Others will acknowledge it, possibly learn from it, and then look for any remaining positives or new opportunities that arise out of it. One can choose how to react after the initial punch to the gut and you get your wind back. I’m not just talking about the Vans situation, either.
My first wife is still pissed off at me, and that was 20 years ago. I don't even think about it anymore, I guarantee not a day goes by that she doesn't think and TALK about it - she has allowed it to ruin what could be happiness for the rest of her life. Many builders on this forum are acting exactly the same.
It's unfortunate. Nobody wanted it, but it happened. Get over it. Move on.
It's unfortunate. Nobody wanted it, but it happened. Get over it. Move on.
mfcummings
Member
I’m Glad to see the video and looks like things are coming around!
It’s definitely quite an enduring process to building a plane. I can’t even imagine adding in this 11 situation along with the delays and price increases.
I think I may have boiled over if it had happened when I was building.
I finished my rv10 in 2019 and now have 500 hours on it. Every time I go to the airport and slide open the hanger door I consider myself a very lucky person.
I wish all you new builders the best of luck! Build On!
It’s definitely quite an enduring process to building a plane. I can’t even imagine adding in this 11 situation along with the delays and price increases.
I think I may have boiled over if it had happened when I was building.
I finished my rv10 in 2019 and now have 500 hours on it. Every time I go to the airport and slide open the hanger door I consider myself a very lucky person.
I wish all you new builders the best of luck! Build On!
They haven't yet finished the last new project (RV-15). New projects are not the focus of this particular time - survival is. They have to get out of the trap before worrying about the bait that got them there.
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
I think the poster was curious about the number of new kits started - new tail kit orders. That is an important indicator.
Im not as concerned about new orders…yet. They have a pretty big backlog to work through that will take them some time. That should keep them busy and funds coming in for a while. How they deliver on the backlog and current orders is likely to sway new projects a few months from now. I expect there are plenty of people like myself that now have something to work on, but still have at least another kit to order that will help bridge current orders to completely new customers. Hopefully with several months of smooth running they can get some prospective customer off the fence.
Another thought, I would expect to see an increase of abandoned or for sale projects irregardless the LCP and ch11. I’m guessing plenty of people started a COVID project that are now back at work and no longer have the time to put towards an airplane. This could also contribute to a reduction in new customer orders.
Valid point, I hadn't considered that angle. I think it's going to be pretty thin for a while - folks considering starting a new kit are going to have to get used to the new prices and check their numbers, make sure they still want to do this. On top of that, I personally would wait until Vans exits Chapter 11 successfully before starting a new airplane with them.
Most of the 81% of re-order acceptance people will still be buying future kits, only the re-orders that went to the finish or FWF kits are "done". So Vans knows there is good future income on the table for those folks picking up their final kits. But a whole new airplane being started right now? That's going to be pretty scarce until Ch 11 is over, I think.
