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Van’s new “no deletion” kit policy - a better way

Carl Froehlich

Carl Froehlich

Well Known Member
No one asked me, but….

I can clearly understand the productivy gains available to Van’s by standardizing kits. Just the poor soles doing the shipping crates will have a much easier job of putting together these jigsaw puzzles.

But, this leaves a lot of builders now deciding to do a build that does not meet their objectives, or getting the full kit and then selling the parts they don’t want to use. If Van’s true objective is to standardize kits, then they could explore the miles of data they have on what standard parts some customers choose not use and created a formal list of kit options. Here the existing part provider would contract with Van’s to have them on the shelf with it comes time to package up kits. The kits would meet the objectives of standardization, Van’s would get a cut on the part cost, and the customer gets what they want.

This would not be a long list. Some examples off the top of my head include:
- Matco upgraded RV-10 brakes
- SkyDesigns RV-8 aluminum gear legs
- Cowl options to include current stock cowl, James Cowl and Showplanes Cowl
- On Firewall Forward kit options such as B&C alternator and PCU5000X Governor and any of the current Oil Coolers offered by Van’s

Carl
 
It’s sad I forgot to delete the gear legs from my fuse kit. I had the grove gear/sky design gear. So now I have an extra set of vans -8 gear legs that will sit in my parts loft forever with my pile of lcp parts. Maybe someday someone might want/need them but I just think that’s how it’ll end up for everyone. Spare parts that we hold and pay for instead of vans. At the end of the day, your idea seems to hold merit.
 
2theskyy said:
It’s sad I forgot to delete the gear legs from my fuse kit. I had the grove gear/sky design gear. So now I have an extra set of vans -8 gear legs that will sit in my parts loft forever with my pile of lcp parts. Maybe someday someone might want/need them but I just think that’s how it’ll end up for everyone. Spare parts that we hold and pay for instead of vans. At the end of the day, your idea seems to hold merit.
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I also forgot to DELETE the gear legs from my -8 fuselage kit. I was able to send them back and get CREDIT for them. I do NOT want the cash but I would like to have credit toward a future order so I did file a claim for the money that is on my Van's account. I am OK with Van's using that money as they see fit but want credit on a future order or a document that I can hand to my tax guy so that he can try to deduct the loss from my taxes.
 
RV6_flyer said:
I also forgot to DELETE the gear legs from my -8 fuselage kit. I was able to send them back and get CREDIT for them. I do NOT want the cash but I would like to have credit toward a future order so I did file a claim for the money that is on my Van's account. I am OK with Van's using that money as they see fit but want credit on a future order or a document that I can hand to my tax guy so that he can try to deduct the loss from my taxes.
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Dang!! I just considered it my dumb mistake. But they have doubled in value since ch11. I’m taking it to the bank, 😆
If my small mistake and lcp choice helps contribute a very small portion to help them succeed and support others. I’m good. Maybe someday the gear will help a hurt -8 fly again.
 
Agreed, don't let buyers' nickel and dime Vans to death and only offer deletion options for the bigger ticket items and charge $ 1,000.00 more per kit to anyone who makes a change. (Ala Lycoming marketing method)
 
That would be great - I'd pay a "kit modification fee" to not end up with two cowlings, for example.
 
Jslow2 said:
I always thought the roughly 60% of store value was the fee for deleting items
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The RV-8 landing gear that came with my Fuselage kit was returned and I did get partial credit for them from the LIST price. I thought the gear came in the finishing kit so had forgotten to delete them from the Fuselage kit. Yes I had to pay for the shipping / freight to return them but I am ok with that as I got "something" (credit for future purchase) in exchange. (may lose that credit now because of Chapter 11) I did NOT have to store them and find a way to liquidate them so it was worth the reduction from the retail price. Even if I get nothing because of Chapter 11, it was the right thing for ME to do.
 
Another reason to pursue something like this is that there is less chance now of finding a buyer for your surplus parts. In the past you could sell your steel gear to a builder at some discount from list, and they would delete it from their kit, so the parts got used. Now there will be an excess supply of RV-8 landing gear that will be hard to find buyers for.

Who the new policy hurts the most is the 3rd party accessory suppliers. You probably won't sell as many Sky Designs landing gear or Showplanes cowls because there is no longer a market for the stock parts, and no way to avoid getting them.

It is a surprising policy to me. The added time/cost of processing kits with deletions, and processing returns, seems rather small to me compared to the HUGE market benefit of having a reputation for great customer service and support. Each kit will still have a 'pick list' that a human has to go through and grab each item out of inventory. The pick list is (or can be) generated direct from the order form. Substituting a manual trim cable instead of an electric trim motor is NOT going to be an issue for the crating folks. Omitting something heavy like landing gear probably SAVED time in crating. It means that Vans would be over-producing some items and inventory would need to be re-balanced periodically. Each time they go to order steel gear from their supplier, they look at the inventory they have. "Gee, we have five extra sets of gear legs that were deletions or returns - so order five fewer in the next batch". None of that seems to me to be worth the reduced appeal of building a Van's kit.
 
scsmith said:
Another reason to pursue something like this is that there is less chance now of finding a buyer for your surplus parts. In the past you could sell your steel gear to a builder at some discount from list, and they would delete it from their kit, so the parts got used. Now there will be an excess supply of RV-8 landing gear that will be hard to find buyers for.

Who the new policy hurts the most is the 3rd party accessory suppliers. You probably won't sell as many Sky Designs landing gear or Showplanes cowls because there is no longer a market for the stock parts, and no way to avoid getting them.

It is a surprising policy to me. The added time/cost of processing kits with deletions, and processing returns, seems rather small to me compared to the HUGE market benefit of having a reputation for great customer service and support. Each kit will still have a 'pick list' that a human has to go through and grab each item out of inventory. The pick list is (or can be) generated direct from the order form. Substituting a manual trim cable instead of an electric trim motor is NOT going to be an issue for the crating folks. Omitting something heavy like landing gear probably SAVED time in crating. It means that Vans would be over-producing some items and inventory would need to be re-balanced periodically. Each time they go to order steel gear from their supplier, they look at the inventory they have. "Gee, we have five extra sets of gear legs that were deletions or returns - so order five fewer in the next batch". None of that seems to me to be worth the reduced appeal of building a Van's kit.
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I agree with your analysis but the name of the game today is Cash for Inventory, more cash less inventory. Do I think ala carte kit picks may come back, probably in some form simply due to market demand but not until the current crisis is solved.
 
docjjrmd said:
I agree with your analysis but the name of the game today is Cash for Inventory, more cash less inventory. Do I think ala carte kit picks may come back, probably in some form simply due to market demand but not until the current crisis is solved.
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As an aftermarket vendor, and a supplier to Vans Aircraft, we see a trend for all of this. Some of us are first time builders and dont know the pitfalls and options available. The multiple offenders do, except for potential new items. Example, as a supplier of the Vans FWF hoses, we build them to Vans specs based on their prototype dimensions. Except for changing to an integral firesleeved version, they are the same dimensions Vans has used for years. With the advent of remote cooler mounting kits from ShowPlanes, and AirFlow Systems, builders have found that the stock hoses wont work with those accessories. The new builder would not have known that, he ordered a FWF kit and expects things to fit according to plans. Wrong assumption. Same thing if by chance they have the brilliant idea of moving an accessory to a different location, like the sender manifold. The hose lengths were designed to fit the plans specified location. Move it, and there is an excellent chance the Vans lengths wont work. Same concept for PMag/EIS/Sureflys. Vans didnt make an optional kit for plumbing them, so the the stock MAP hose wont work without some modification. We get calls all the time about this.
So-how to help solve the issue? Well my dad had a saying the prior planning prevents poor performance, and that certainly holds true here. The problem is that most new builders just dont know. We talk to ALOT of builders, via email, phone, and in person and try to help guide them through the maze of parts. WE see alot of them at AirVenture and they are gathering information on things before they order their kits. VAF has always been a great source for information, and will continue to do so. The biggest trick here is to have the information, weigh the pros and cons, and decide what you want for YOUR plane, before you order a kit. If you need custom hoses for an aftermarket accessory, its no issue. Better than having hoses that wont work.
This just doesnt apply to hoses, how about Avionics? Brakes, engines, props--gee you name it and you can generally find an aftermarket option. Best to gather all the info you can, weigh each, then decide what you want to do. Contact the vendor for that accessory and see if THEY have an install kit, or if you have to make your own. Sometimes that is a determining factor. Just to the research.

Tom
 
jimbom said:
So, surely FWF kits will remain modifiable, right?
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From everything I have read, and in all my conversations with Vans, YES, the FWF kits are modifiable. I'm not sure Vans manufacture any of the parts in the FWF kit (maybe baffles, or are they in the finish kit?), so if you needed to go off script, you could alway use the parts list as a reference, and order what you need form the source, not Vans. They provide the FWF kits as a convenience to the builder, but as Tom from TS Flightlines stated, be smart about what you are ordering. The standard FWF kit may not work for you.
 
The two big items in my mind are RV-8 landing gear legs and electric vs manual trim for the elevator and the ailerons.

Omitting the gear legs makes crating easier and faster, and they can adjust inventory needs as they go along. The incremental cost to keep me happy seems really small.
Electric vs Manual trim is just one option to support. Seems a small thing to do to keep some level of customer satisfaction amidst all the other drama. Instead, forcing the wrong option down my throat just adds more to the drama.

Some 'might' argue about the ground adjustable vs in-flight adjustable pedals, but you know, it is remarkable how many people retro-fit the in-flight adjustable assembly later because the ground adjustable set up is kind of a PITA except for single-pilot airplanes, where it just doesn't matter. So removing that option seems a good decision.

Other models I am less familiar with. Is Vans still supporting the option of slider vs tip-up? Gosh I hope so! We would have one less thing to argue about!
 
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