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Update from VAN's - May 24

LSA and the 51% rule?

Time your assistance once again --

As I now understand the rule, for an aircraft to be registered as an E-LSA there has to be an S-LSA built as the standard? The Sonex and the RV-12, at least for now, will have no S-LSA as a standard so neither of these aircraft can be registered as a Light Sport Aircraft?? They can be flown by a Sport Pilot because they conform to the LSA rules, but they will be registered as an Experimental - Amature Built Aircraft (E-ABA)?

IS IT correct that a person with a true E-LSA can go to a short maintenance course and be authorized to do all maintenance on his aircraft including annual inspections? BUT, this would not be true for the Sonex or RV-12 since they are E-ABA aircraft -- so no matter about the maintenance course, only the builder and an authorized A&P can do the annual on these machines? IS the preceding correct?

51% rule -- I have read (but that doesn't make it so) that the 51% is not necessarily refering to building 51% of the aircraft, just that the builder must do 51% of the tasks??? Does this mean that say pulling rivets is a "task" - and if I pull ONE rivet I have completed this task?? And if this is true, and I find a substantially built E-ABA aircraft, can I document that I have completed 51% of the "tasks" and then be the registered builder and receive a repairman's certificate for this machine -- I'm sure the answer to this question is NO -- but any attorneys out there?

What have you seen a far as registering Experimental-ABA aircraft that have had several owner/builders - the guy that finishes it - how much proof does he need that he did the 51%? And what constitutes 51%??

Please disect the above and let me know what you think---

I know that I can look it up in the FARs and find a written answer - might need that lawyer to translate, but I'm interested in your practial experience rather than book learning --

Thanks to all,

ceuh1v
Jim -Sacramento
 
Your questions are not as simple as they sound. There are several types of E-SLAs.
As far as maintenance goes, an owner of an amateur-built or E-SLA can do all maintenance, but NOT the condition inspection.
I've been certifying amateur-builts since 1999 and LSAs since February 2005.
I was instrumental in the SLA DAR prototype seminar in Oklahoma City. I've done over 25 LSAs.
If you will call me, I can answer your questions. If I don't have the answer, I can get it.
972-784-7544
 
RatMan said:
Well, OK good point. I don't realy think it compares with the currently available RVs but for an LSA it's hot. No doubt there. There wont be many that can do loops and rolls but the Sonex can. I hope when you're done you'll consider another video with your -3 this time. VERY cool, I really enjoyed it.
Click to expand...


No more videos, John. Think I'm a one trick pony. And for those of you not familiar with the capabilities of the Sonex, don't be too quick to kiss it off. Vne of 197 mph, Vh of 136 mph, and a 40 mph stall. Spend $5 and see for yourself: http://www.sonexaircraft.com/choosing/rightseat.html How to get into big trouble with DR: push a Sonex on an RV list. :)

Tony
 
Given that the preferred/mandated engine is the Rotex 912 ULS does this mean that VANS will be making accommodations for the use of Auto Gas and 100LL. In particular I'm wondering if the auto gas vapor locking issue will be designed out of the fuel system and will the new mandated use of alcohol as an auto fuel additive be accommodated in the fuel lines/seals/rubber components?? Can it be done?
 
912 Fuels

otterhunter2 said:
Given that the preferred/mandated engine is the Rotex 912 ULS does this mean that VANS will be making accommodations for the use of Auto Gas and 100LL.
Click to expand...

The general consensus of the people I know that operate 912 variants is that those engines will not tolerate 100LL AvGas even on an occasional basis. This factor would seem to make the Rotax a poor choice for an aircraft like the RV-12, that presumably will have excellent cross-country capabilities. Even if you can find an airport enroute with MoGas, it probably will have been stored for so long that you might be reluctant to use it.

I have watched the Jabiru designs improve, and the 3300 would seem to be a better basic engine choice for the RV-12. The low "Max Sustained RPM" value that is applied to the part of the LSA rule regarding max cruise speed is a real advantage, and the Jab apparently has better tolerance for 100LL.

Hawkeye Hughes
Skyote and RV-3's
 
Different experience

Hi Guys, I have to jump in here:

Sorry Mr. ReHughes my experience is just slightly different from yours, I don't want to start a debate, just want to share my experience and opinion, another angle with the folks out there...:D

I have been flying ultra lights for about 5 years now; we typically fly in group outings and use the Rotax engines 2 and 4 strokes between us. The 912S 100hp IS tolerant of avgas, it just don?t like it as much as unleaded Mogas. You need to clean/replace plugs sooner. We fly on unleaded Mogas as standard, but every so often we fill up with avgas without problems 2 strokes and 4 strokes.

We can hope that Vans will design the RV12 around Mogas and address any potential vapour locking issues, since the Rotax 912 just loves Mogas.

Here you have an engine you can regularly run on Mogas and when you get to a field that don?t have some fill up with Avgas. The best of both worlds in my opinion.

Yes the Jabiru 3300 120HP motor might be a contender, simpler but air cooled. I glanced over the weight and dimensions on their website. It is heavier, and fitment on an standard RV12 might be a problem, because the recess on the firewall for the Rotax is on top, where the Jab needs the space on the bottom. The current pictures of the RV 12 shows the recess on the top. The Jab 2200 might fit but then it is only a 85HP motor. The Jabirus haven?t been around as long as the Rotaxes either they have not seen the same amount of hours. Price between a 3300 and 912S will be in the same ball park. Just like the Subaru conversions on the other RVs I?m sure a person can 'make' it work and there will most probably be people that will do it.

My 2c, let's wait and see, (I can't wait :p)

Kind Regards
Rudi
 
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Lead is Dead

REHughes said:
The general consensus of the people I know that operate 912 variants is that those engines will not tolerate 100LL AvGas even on an occasional basis.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that you (1) need to use as little 100LL as you can, but if you must, then (2) use a ROTAX approved oil that will suspend the lead, (3) change oil every 25-33 hours, (4) keep an eye on the plugs and (5) pay special attention to the PSRU gearbox during rebuild.

This last item is from a tech at Lockwood Aviation in Sebring. His comment was that it took about 2 seconds after opening the case to tell if a 912 had run on 100LL or not. "The gearbox gets full of lead" - 'nuf said.

There are plenty of Rotax 912S out there that have happily been running on 100LL, but yes, 91 Octane MoGas is better. The best solution would be for the FBOs and fuel suppliers to get off their duffs and start blending and dispensing fuel that meets the ASTM 91/98UL spec.

The way I look at the 912 is that it's ready for 91/98UL, but will tollerate 100LL. Makes sense to me - 100LL's days are numbered; we just don't know how many are left.
 
If I was betting, I would say it will most definitely be there. Even, if it hasn't had first flight, they will drag it there. Vans is a marketing guy and he understands the value of creating product buzz! Can't wait for the unveilings: RANS S-19, Cessna LSA, and Vans RV-12. Great for the consumer and GA.

JMHO :D
 
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Agreed, I was just gonna mention the S-19, Cessna and also Kolb, who might only have a Forum presentation about their new LSA just as Vans did at last years AirVenture. Man, three prominent companies presenting their new LSA designs, thats exciting stuff!
 
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