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"True" Hazards of Low Passes/Buzzing

True Hazards ?

There is no mystery about the hazards of a low pass or buzzing - the the margin of error for not hitting the ground or objects on it is reduced to a minimum and at uncontrolled airports the collision or wake turbulence hazards with other aircraft are increased. Low flying is a are a part of flying and as long as the FAA rules are followed it is the responsibility of the pilot to complete the flight without failure. Whether it is called a low pass or a "buzzing" depends on the intentions of the pilot and the self appointed performance police. I'm embarrassed that I lowered my standards to comment on this but my real PO point is the suggestion that running out of fuel is not a real problem with real causes that could be addressed and produce some really helpful information to pilots who actually get out of the pattern and travel in real world variable conditions.

Bob Axsom
 
Phylan Pan
So...just for the record, are we arguing that a low pass in and of itself is dangerous? Or rather, that a low pass is dangerous because people do other dangerous stuff (low level acro) while doing them?

No a low pass is not in itself dangerous, when it is done by a pilot doing a precautionary search or strip inspection, but even then its best done at half flap and an appropriate speed and a height to examine the strip etc etc as you were trained to do.

A low pass done in a controlled environment, no other objects, man nor beast is different, and if its done aerobatically by a trained qualified and briefed pilot say at an airshow.

Big difference between that and "Hold My Beer and Watch This!!"

For those who have not read about the BAC Strikemaster crash, from the limited early information and report I can only make assumptions, officially yet it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck. Basically only new to type from a A36 Bonanza, ferrying someone elses jet, not aerbatic endorsed, buzzed his local strip after a phone call ahead (hold my beer and watch this), and it looks like he G-LOC'ed or just had no idea how to handle such a jet when it ran out of airspeed at low level.

I have one friend out of hundreds of pilot mates I would be happy with doing aero's in an old jet, and he would not be doing that under the same circumstances. Pro's don't behave like that. Confusing ambition with ability is the mother of all prangs.

Ken K
You are onto it, BUT the problem is the low pass is part of the greater "show off" display. Yes the strikemaster was lost after the pass but his fate was sealed long before the pass. When the NTSB release a final report it will be interesting to see what they say and what they do not.

I ask you how many Airline Jets do you see doing things like this at busy populate aerodromes? why? Sure the military do them away from town and the display teams do them at public events, but that is where the differences are.
 
Again, as others have stated, there just isn't much of a margin of safety should something go wrong.

The same can be said for aerobatics, or formation flying, or flying over water, or over mountains, flying single engine IFR/IMC, or shooting approaches when weather is at minimums. By choosing to place themselves in these and other situations each pilot exercises his/her discretion as to the level of risk they are willing to accept. My point is that reducing the margin of safety is NOT synonymous with being unsafe, reckless, stupid, or some of the other pejorative descriptors that have been recently used on various safety threads to describe pilots that do low approaches.

It appears that I?m in the minority of posters here, but I really enjoy seeing airplanes (especially cool ones!) do low, high speed passes! My personal observation of others over the years ? including pilots ? that have witnessed this activity is that enjoyment is generally shared by the majority as long as the passes are done with appropriate consideration (see F1Boss?s post - #25 of this thread - for a good set of guidelines). Perhaps now that the ?self appointed performance police? are on the rise this attitude will change?I sure hope not. I have done plenty of passes myself, and I must say I?ve never once felt ?dirty? afterwards. My personal motivation is that they are fun and exhilarating. Sometimes there have been people on the ground to see me, sometimes not. Either way, I have the same amount of fun.

Hearing how people think and process is always interesting to me. Several safety-related posts have assigned unflattering motives to pilots who do passes, with "showing off? being mentioned more than once. Are these motives merely assumed, or are those who are accused of this offense actually known by their accusers; i.e., do they know their personalities well enough to really understand their motivation? Perhaps some do, but the inference I get is that this ?showing off? motive is largely being projected. It would behoove all of us not to participate in this practice, and give our fellow pilots (and their motives) the benefit of the doubt unless or until such time that doing so is demonstrated to be unwarranted. :cool:
 
...It appears that I?m in the minority of posters here, but I really enjoy seeing airplanes (especially cool ones!) do low, high speed passes!...

Make no mistake about it, so do I so long as it is what I consider to be the "right" circumstances.


...I have done plenty of passes myself, and I must say I?ve never once felt ?dirty? afterwards. My personal motivation is that they are fun and exhilarating...

Since my comment looks like it was misunderstood, let me clarify: I do them all the time and enjoy doing it. BUT, it is when I allow myself to be drawn into a situation that I normally would not go (like in front of a crowd at a fly in), that I feel "dirty". I'm a little ashamed that I let emotion get the best of me - that's all.


Reading this thread makes one thing clear to me - Low passes are going to continue as long as there are pilots. I submit that our collective mission is to make sure less of them wind up in the FAA accident database.
 
You are not alone

The same can be said for aerobatics, or formation flying, or flying over water, or over mountains, flying single engine IFR/IMC, or shooting approaches when weather is at minimums. By choosing to place themselves in these and other situations each pilot exercises his/her discretion as to the level of risk they are willing to accept. My point is that reducing the margin of safety is NOT synonymous with being unsafe, reckless, stupid, or some of the other pejorative descriptors that have been recently used on various safety threads to describe pilots that do low approaches.

It appears that I?m in the minority of posters here, but I really enjoy seeing airplanes (especially cool ones!) do low, high speed passes! My personal observation of others over the years ? including pilots ? that have witnessed this activity is that enjoyment is generally shared by the majority as long as the passes are done with appropriate consideration (see F1Boss?s post - #25 of this thread - for a good set of guidelines). Perhaps now that the ?self appointed performance police? are on the rise this attitude will change?I sure hope not. I have done plenty of passes myself, and I must say I?ve never once felt ?dirty? afterwards. My personal motivation is that they are fun and exhilarating. Sometimes there have been people on the ground to see me, sometimes not. Either way, I have the same amount of fun.

Hearing how people think and process is always interesting to me. Several safety-related posts have assigned unflattering motives to pilots who do passes, with "showing off? being mentioned more than once. Are these motives merely assumed, or are those who are accused of this offense actually known by their accusers; i.e., do they know their personalities well enough to really understand their motivation? Perhaps some do, but the inference I get is that this ?showing off? motive is largely being projected. It would behoove all of us not to participate in this practice, and give our fellow pilots (and their motives) the benefit of the doubt unless or until such time that doing so is demonstrated to be unwarranted. :cool:

I'll stand beside you on this post. You are not alone. I suspect you aren't even a minority, it's just that most don't have the time or emotional energy available to engage in the debate.

The self-appointed safety police might not realize that EVERY SINGLE report the FSDO receives MUST be investigated.

People who attribute motives to other pilot's behavior bother the heck out of me. I don't fly a low pass down the runway at my sky park to show off...I do it to check for the stupid neighbor's dog that has been out on the runway numerous times (I defy you to see a miniature Chow dog from pattern altitude, and somebody back me up on the math...a 30 pound dog hit by a 40 or 50 mph airplane isn't going to end well for either dog or airplane).

Perception is key. Anybody with an RV will know that my pass at 20" MP and 2000 RPM isn't really a "High Speed Pass" but the spam can drivers out there are frightened by my 150 Knot low flyby. I have one hand-wringing neighbor in particular that just can't convince his wife that I'm not going to splatter myself across the field. He calls the FSDO all the time.

I've been contacted by the FSDO on this topic. On my third visit to the FSDO, their exact words were "Tim, I can't tell you that you are doing anything wrong, but I will violate you on FAR 91.13 if you don't make the complaints stop" I make my living with my pilot's ticket. I'm not doing anything wrong but they will declare me "careless and reckless" so that they don't have to deal with whiners. "Houston we have lift off..." I went ballistic.

I was prepared to take this to court and become a test case on this issue. How is my low pass in violation of a regulation? People will spout "No Flight below 500 feet except for the purpose of landing..." Ok, how is my low pass to inspect the runway environment ANY different than performing a practice ILS to a missed approach? In the case of the ILS, the pilot doesn't intend to land so the by hand-wringer's logic she or he shouldn't go below 500 feet? They will say "You're going too fast"...really, I shoot ILS's in the jet at 140-160 KIAS all the time, that's why there are Category C and D minima.

The FSDO guy's solution was to advise me that I should lie and say I flubbed the approach and had to go around. If I'm wrong, stupid or doing something unsafe, by all means please counsel the **** out of me but I will not lie about my conduct in an airplane.

For all the high and mighty folks who are naive enough to believe that they've actually conducted a flight for which not one single regulation was violated, I have news for you. The regulations are intentionally written so as to allow for selective interpretation and arbitrary enforcement. You ALL taxi too fast, the regulation reads "No faster than a man can walk." Who among us hasn't ever flown within 5 miles of an uncontrolled airport below 3000 agl without intending to land? We all study current charts and AFD's regarding every airport we might land at every flight, right? A full and complete weather briefing...every flight? Don't think that our pretty Garmins with XM would qualify as a full brief. NOTAMS? FDC NOTAMS? You do perform a weight and balance for every leg, right? Everybody who's actually calculated the density altitude and runway requirements prior to each flight, raise your hand.

I operate in a sector of aviation where safety is a CULTURE. I not only look at every thing I do but also the way I do it to see if there's a safer, smarter, or more economical way to accomplish the goal of going home every night.

SMS (Safety Management Systems) is coming to GA here in the USA...it's a pain in the butt and the hand wringers will love it. ICAO currently requires pole vaulting over every mouse turd, and soon we here in the USofA will be doing it too.

In closing, I will pass along how I feel about the FARs. In general, they are great, people usually paid in blood for the lessons put forth in any given regulation. While not every single reg leads to more safety, I don't know of any regulations that actually detract from safety.

To those who say "We must each be our brother's keeper" I say..."let (s)he without sin cast the first stone."
 
Hand raised, sort of...

Everybody who's actually calculated the density altitude and runway requirements prior to each flight, raise your hand.

Several of us on this forum do, it is called Part 121 flying. That would be scheduled airline operations, the ones with the best safety record. No, I am not saying that one has to "do the numbers" on every takeoff in an RV, but when things get away from normal, short runway, high temperature, high altitude, close to gross weight, or a combination of any of these a little calculating may save your hide.

DSCN0255-1.jpg


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Well Said, Tim!

Thanks for a great post, Tim. It saved me the time of commenting, as you covered much of what I wanted to state.
I know which FSDO you deal with, and some day over a frosty one, I will tell you my horror story of what they pulled on me 25 years ago.
 
I'll stand beside you on this post. You are not alone. I suspect you aren't even a minority, it's just that most don't have the time or emotional energy available to engage in the debate.

The self-appointed safety police might not realize that EVERY SINGLE report the FSDO receives MUST be investigated.

People who attribute motives to other pilot's behavior bother the heck out of me. I don't fly a low pass down the runway at my sky park to show off...I do it to check for the stupid neighbor's dog that has been out on the runway numerous times (I defy you to see a miniature Chow dog from pattern altitude, and somebody back me up on the math...a 30 pound dog hit by a 40 or 50 mph airplane isn't going to end well for either dog or airplane).

Perception is key. Anybody with an RV will know that my pass at 20" MP and 2000 RPM isn't really a "High Speed Pass" but the spam can drivers out there are frightened by my 150 Knot low flyby. I have one hand-wringing neighbor in particular that just can't convince his wife that I'm not going to splatter myself across the field. He calls the FSDO all the time.

I've been contacted by the FSDO on this topic. On my third visit to the FSDO, their exact words were "Tim, I can't tell you that you are doing anything wrong, but I will violate you on FAR 91.13 if you don't make the complaints stop" I make my living with my pilot's ticket. I'm not doing anything wrong but they will declare me "careless and reckless" so that they don't have to deal with whiners. "Houston we have lift off..." I went ballistic.

I was prepared to take this to court and become a test case on this issue. How is my low pass in violation of a regulation? People will spout "No Flight below 500 feet except for the purpose of landing..." Ok, how is my low pass to inspect the runway environment ANY different than performing a practice ILS to a missed approach? In the case of the ILS, the pilot doesn't intend to land so the by hand-wringer's logic she or he shouldn't go below 500 feet? They will say "You're going too fast"...really, I shoot ILS's in the jet at 140-160 KIAS all the time, that's why there are Category C and D minima.

The FSDO guy's solution was to advise me that I should lie and say I flubbed the approach and had to go around. If I'm wrong, stupid or doing something unsafe, by all means please counsel the **** out of me but I will not lie about my conduct in an airplane.

For all the high and mighty folks who are naive enough to believe that they've actually conducted a flight for which not one single regulation was violated, I have news for you. The regulations are intentionally written so as to allow for selective interpretation and arbitrary enforcement. You ALL taxi too fast, the regulation reads "No faster than a man can walk." Who among us hasn't ever flown within 5 miles of an uncontrolled airport below 3000 agl without intending to land? We all study current charts and AFD's regarding every airport we might land at every flight, right? A full and complete weather briefing...every flight? Don't think that our pretty Garmins with XM would qualify as a full brief. NOTAMS? FDC NOTAMS? You do perform a weight and balance for every leg, right? Everybody who's actually calculated the density altitude and runway requirements prior to each flight, raise your hand.

I operate in a sector of aviation where safety is a CULTURE. I not only look at every thing I do but also the way I do it to see if there's a safer, smarter, or more economical way to accomplish the goal of going home every night.

SMS (Safety Management Systems) is coming to GA here in the USA...it's a pain in the butt and the hand wringers will love it. ICAO currently requires pole vaulting over every mouse turd, and soon we here in the USofA will be doing it too.

In closing, I will pass along how I feel about the FARs. In general, they are great, people usually paid in blood for the lessons put forth in any given regulation. While not every single reg leads to more safety, I don't know of any regulations that actually detract from safety.

To those who say "We must each be our brother's keeper" I say..."let (s)he without sin cast the first stone."


Best response to the self proclaimed enforcement police written.

Some of the attitudes on this board are so COUNTER productive, it's frightening. There are legal and safe ways to operate in the low altitude environment, the personal level acceptable safety is just that though, personal.

BTW a slander lawsuit may quiet your neighbor down real quick.
 
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Very well said!

To those who say "We must each be our brother's keeper" I say..."let (s)he without sin cast the first stone."

I too, have been "visited" after someone thought I'd crashed, when from a distance, they couldn't tell that I was a crop-duster, dusting crops!

Thanks,
 
Met Towers

I realize y'all are talking about low passes at an airport, but in other safety threads I've seen here people have talked about going out in the boonies to get their low level thrills legally. So I thought this might be a good place to mention the debate going on in the low level operations community ( ag, ems, law enforcement to name a few ) about unmarked, unlit, 6"-8" diameter meteorology towers used to get wind measurements to see if the location is good for windmills. These towers are usually gray, skinny and are very difficult to see. They can be erected in less than a day and can be up to 199' feet tall. They have guy wires to support them that are also invisible. There is no requirement for notification to anybody when these towers go up. Earlier this year there was a fatality in Ca. where an ag plane ran into one of these towers. This link is to an article on these towers and shows a painted (aviation orange and white) tower, but many of them are primer gray.
http://avstop.com/march_2011/ntsb_u...lant_for_meteorological_evaluation_towers.htm

So if you feel the need to go get a buzz fix in the boonies, just keep in mind that there might be something sticking up that you didn't count on, and that you won't see, and that no one has the responsibility to tell you is there.
 
That's an excellent point James,

We see these things popping up all over the place in my neck of the woods. We used to be able to fly for 20 miles in any direction right on the deck, but thanks to the windmills and these survey towers sprouting out of the desert like weeds, it is a real risk. That's why I essentially keep my low passes confined to my airport these days.

Know your surroundings!
 
GPS towers are proliferating.

In farming areas, many GPS differential correction towers are going up so the farmers have 6" guidance for their auto-steer GPS following systems....an autopilot for a tractor, essentially, also under 200' so they're not required to be marked or lighted. I dodge them routinely while I'm spraying.

Best,
 
the air is good.....

I read this somewhere.....

"the air is good; stay away from the edges of the air....."

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Dave
-9A flying (66 fun hours)
 
Does "Buzz job" mean some kind of high speed low pass?

My main concern when flying low is birdstrike.
And I see high speed as a safety factor in case of a engine out situation down low.

Flutter or hitting obstacles should be a non issue.
 
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