Van's Air Force
The definitive Van's Aircraft support community! Buying, building or flying an RV? Join our exclusive family of mentors and enthusiasts!
Thunderbolt Engines
- Thread starter rv6ator
- Start date
Nope. (IMO! And I have one...)
The lead time on Thunderbolt engines is actually shorter than non-Thunderbolt (14 vs 18 months respectively). When I ordered my Thunderbolt two years ago, the difference in price was around 5 grand. That difference was worth it to me at the time. Since prices overall have risen drastically just since I ordered my engine ($62,750 in 2023 vs $80,000 now), I wouldn't pay an additional $12,000 for a Thunderbolt now.
Last edited:
I ordered a Thunderbolt in 2021 with a 2023 delivery. As others have said the cost differential was much smaller which presented a more competitive cost vs. value decision.
One data point on my motor as I had started to see a small amount of oil deposits on the outer edge of the crank case. Due to an unfortunate incident I had to have the motor torn down, as such a reputable engine shop stated the case bolts that held accessories such as the flow divider had not been torqued to even 100 in/lb. I think this is less likely with a non Thunderbolt.
One data point on my motor as I had started to see a small amount of oil deposits on the outer edge of the crank case. Due to an unfortunate incident I had to have the motor torn down, as such a reputable engine shop stated the case bolts that held accessories such as the flow divider had not been torqued to even 100 in/lb. I think this is less likely with a non Thunderbolt.
Our Thunderbolt hasn't been exactly trouble free either. It was delivered with prop governor studs that were way too short. Lycoming said they were "to spec", but I strongly suspect that wasn't true. They did send me the correct ones free of charge and I installed them myself.
Second, we developed a small oil leak at the prop seal. I had that replaced by a local shop under warranty.
Third, the valve cover screws were pretty badly under-torqued. Easy fix.
So in short, much more money for not much more engine? Lycoming's support has been excellent, but I'd save the 12k if I were you...
-G
Second, we developed a small oil leak at the prop seal. I had that replaced by a local shop under warranty.
Third, the valve cover screws were pretty badly under-torqued. Easy fix.
So in short, much more money for not much more engine? Lycoming's support has been excellent, but I'd save the 12k if I were you...
-G
I've had somewhat mixed results. The engine runs pretty well. With a prop re-clocking, it's reasonably smooth.
But, it's leaked oil from a couple places from the start. And I had to re-set/ re-adhere the prop seal after 100 hours or so after I found it leaking oil. It rotated in its seat with zero effort! The seal has been solid as a rock since then. (I've heard of another instance of a loose seal on a Thunderbolt as well.)
If I had to do it over again, especially given the prices today, I'd go standard.
-Eric
But, it's leaked oil from a couple places from the start. And I had to re-set/ re-adhere the prop seal after 100 hours or so after I found it leaking oil. It rotated in its seat with zero effort! The seal has been solid as a rock since then. (I've heard of another instance of a loose seal on a Thunderbolt as well.)
If I had to do it over again, especially given the prices today, I'd go standard.
-Eric
Seems astounding to me that the boutique arm of 'the factory' can't even do basic quality control inspections! Loose bolts, nose seals not properly glued in place, improper length accessory studs, etc. And for all these 'features' you get to pay more.
Oh, wait, you get to choose fancy paint colors.... never mind, it's all worth it!
Oh, wait, you get to choose fancy paint colors.... never mind, it's all worth it!
On the new RV-10 build I went with Thunderbolt. This is the last build I’ll ever do so I pulled out the stops. I also wanted to have a Cold Air Sump horizontal intake.
On this I order the Cold Air Sump added ~$5K to the price. Total bill from Van’s was $56K for this IO-540. All good until the bankruptcy. Van’s gave me the option of paying an additional $6K (just because they could), or applying for a refund on my deposit (as some unknown future date). At that point after three years of delay the price of a new IO-540 was pushing $90K so I opted for the lesser of the two evils.
This is my second Thunderbolt (the first being an IO-360-M1B). This engine now has ~620 hours and has been flawless. The new IO-540 is still in the box, but will be mounted in a month or so. Time will tell.
To the orginal question. If I was buying an a new engine today I’d contact the JB Aircraft Engines (recently endorsed by Vic Syracuse):
Carl
On this I order the Cold Air Sump added ~$5K to the price. Total bill from Van’s was $56K for this IO-540. All good until the bankruptcy. Van’s gave me the option of paying an additional $6K (just because they could), or applying for a refund on my deposit (as some unknown future date). At that point after three years of delay the price of a new IO-540 was pushing $90K so I opted for the lesser of the two evils.
This is my second Thunderbolt (the first being an IO-360-M1B). This engine now has ~620 hours and has been flawless. The new IO-540 is still in the box, but will be mounted in a month or so. Time will tell.
To the orginal question. If I was buying an a new engine today I’d contact the JB Aircraft Engines (recently endorsed by Vic Syracuse):
Carl
My Thunderbolt engine had a defective fuel servo installed. The mixture control was totally bogus allowing 50+gph to flow at mid travel.
I was NEGATIVELY impressed that such an evident issue passed the "Thunderbolt" engine test standards. Evidently they never checked fuel flow at different mixture settings.
I was NEGATIVELY impressed that such an evident issue passed the "Thunderbolt" engine test standards. Evidently they never checked fuel flow at different mixture settings.
This is rather shocking... it had normal fuel flow at full rich?
NavyS3BNFO
Well Known Member
Wow. These are very disturbing and disappointing to hear. I have a TB IO360 but haven't hung it yet. I guess I'll be checking a few extra things before my first engine start.
Jjackh10
Well Known Member
This thread has gone a bit different than I thought. Typically when we spend a premium for a shiny thing we strongly try to justify that decision.
In the spirit displayed here I'll share a similar purchase I recently made. I replaced my 10yr old truck with a brand new model. She's prettier to look at, but what a piece of sh*t! More useless electronics than radio shack! More glitches and erratic behavior with said electronics than a crackhead that just scored! And 20% worse fuel economy because of all the EPA compliance! How is burning 20% more hydrocarbons to do the same work better for the environment?
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest guys!
In the spirit displayed here I'll share a similar purchase I recently made. I replaced my 10yr old truck with a brand new model. She's prettier to look at, but what a piece of sh*t! More useless electronics than radio shack! More glitches and erratic behavior with said electronics than a crackhead that just scored! And 20% worse fuel economy because of all the EPA compliance! How is burning 20% more hydrocarbons to do the same work better for the environment?
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest guys!
I'm glad I opted for the basic IO-390 with magnetos...
What the deal there? Why less fuel economy?
For those that might be wondering, you can get all the same configurations from Lycoming "Basic" engines as you can from Thunderbolt. So that means ignition choices, fuel delivery, etc. Thunderbolt gets you porting and polishing, color choices, and "hand assembled" (maybe more of a negative than a strength based on experiences above).
Creating a market shortage, then driving the prices through the roof to take advantage of the shortages that they have created. This is gouging as a minimum. This type of business plan is the opposite of what we and our fathers have built history on. Its too bad as a lot is going to change and none of it will be for the better for most of us. Ive had a good 50 yr run in general aviation and so thankful for my timing. My children and grandchildren wont have the same opportunities.
Tim
Tim
Jjackh10
Well Known Member
Same make model gearing and tire size. Old truck 21mpg highway and 9mpg pulling the camper. New truck is 16 & 6. Old truck has DPF delete, EGR delete, and aftermarket performance tune. EPA equipment uses energy and makes it hard for an engine to breath. So you burn more fuel to power it.
Worth it?
Not sure I'm covering it all since I've only flown some 105 hours since the initial start of the engine a month and a half ago. TB YO-360-EXP314... covered with some cheap red paint.
Power, no more than the standard O-360-A1A I had before, though a standard order, was expecting slightly more. Torque, not sure, would have to measure TO distance and climb performance with some precise equipment, but doesn't seems any better than previous. The most disappointing, compressions performed during the first 100h inspection showed 70/74/75/76, which I find quite low for a 100h engine... #1 cylinder showing 70, air can be heard escaping thru the oil fill (rings) and the FAB (intake valve)...
The benefit is the super smooth all RPMs running (associated to the 3 bladed MT).
Worth the 6 grands extra? Not really. Winding back the clock I'd probably go for a clone (Titan), or one of those excellent engine shop providers.
Not sure I'm covering it all since I've only flown some 105 hours since the initial start of the engine a month and a half ago. TB YO-360-EXP314... covered with some cheap red paint.
Power, no more than the standard O-360-A1A I had before, though a standard order, was expecting slightly more. Torque, not sure, would have to measure TO distance and climb performance with some precise equipment, but doesn't seems any better than previous. The most disappointing, compressions performed during the first 100h inspection showed 70/74/75/76, which I find quite low for a 100h engine... #1 cylinder showing 70, air can be heard escaping thru the oil fill (rings) and the FAB (intake valve)...
The benefit is the super smooth all RPMs running (associated to the 3 bladed MT).
Worth the 6 grands extra? Not really. Winding back the clock I'd probably go for a clone (Titan), or one of those excellent engine shop providers.
I have to laugh...they're all hand assembled...what, do they have robots running around building engines?
I would have probably preferred Pmags over regular mags, but the upcharge from Vans and Lycoming is ridiculous. The engine with mags is 59775.28..the engine with pmags is 62584.27. Both magnetos and Pmags cost about $2K each, so there shouldn't be any upcharge at all. Instead they add almost $3K to the engine config equipped with mags. Essentially, they are charging about $5K for the pmags. You could buy the engine with new magnetos, remove them, sell them, buy PMags from Spruce and save yourself some serious coin. And don't even get me started on alternators....
yes. full rich and cut-off were fine. That is why they missed it, I guess.
I have one, love it. $2,000 extra when I purchased it. I was able to go to the factory and watch the assembly and test run. So far (300+ hrs) flawless.
I was told it would turn about 10 extra hp due to the porting etc. Not sure if that is true since I have never checked it. I did have an extra 2-3 knots over another comparable RV-10 in a cross country 800 nm flight. However, that could have been the electronic ignition with 3 degrees advance in cruise.
For $12,000 extra, I would skip it. That would have been spent on the Garmin 750 instead.
I was told it would turn about 10 extra hp due to the porting etc. Not sure if that is true since I have never checked it. I did have an extra 2-3 knots over another comparable RV-10 in a cross country 800 nm flight. However, that could have been the electronic ignition with 3 degrees advance in cruise.
For $12,000 extra, I would skip it. That would have been spent on the Garmin 750 instead.
Thats incredible and unlucky...
ShortSnorter
Well Known Member
While I didn't have the Thunderbolt, my -390 crank seal started leaking as well after ~150 hours. When I spoke to Lycoming they candidly admitted this has been a problem because they were forced to change the glue type due to EPA regulations. I was told that "if the new recommended glue did not work the second time, the original glue (plio bond) would be ok." You can guess which glue I used...
As a side note, they mentioned that they have been working on testing new glues but of course the FAA approval process was not very fast.
*This was circa 2020
all captured on video. Airflow Performance had a rebuilt fuel servo sent to me to fix the issue. Lycoming did not fix it. even being under warranty.
BTW, (second post) one cylinder had a wabbly valve, replaced the jug. One lifter was too long and the valve did not seal (caught on the first annual) And when first started the Avstar throttle body did not work right, sent it in and they sent it back works great. This is all before 100 hours. But it's red. Seems to work well at 200 hours. And did I say it is painted red.
