The words experimental, amateur built & homebuilt

[bryan12]

Handling explaining "homebuilt" and "exp" to riders

Just as a general discussion topic I was wondering how all of you handled explaining to your riders the way in which your aircraft was built. We are all supremely confident in Van's Aircraft from a safety standpoint, but I cant help but feel there is a time and place before taking a non pilot up to explain the nature of how experimental planes are built. Many people would be amazed at how a flying machice can come from a garage. A bit of a verbal waiver you might say.

If you dont preface your riders on the building process how you handle the question of when asked what the "Experimental" means behind the seats.

As PIC most of us feel as confident in your Vans aircraft as you would a 172 right off the showroom floor, heck almost definetly safer than a beat up 172 in a rental fleet. So internally if a pilot deems the flight to be just as safe is there a need to bring it up? If you deam "no" how would you feel about one of your riders being appauled to discover they just went flying in a homebuilt aircraft?

 

[Low Pass]

Personally, I explain experimental means it was built by someone other than a factory. That's me in my case - in a garage from a kit actually. That makes it a custom plane - kind of like a bike built at Orange County Choppers.
Next, explain that 6000 of type are flying. Then ask if they've ever heard of an accident with an RV type airplane. Never had anyone say yes. Then ask if they still want to go? Never had anyone decline.

 

[DGlaeser]

Simple and straightforward

I typically just say that I built my plane from a kit. Most of the work was done in my garage, with final assembly out at the airport. I get to explain that a lot when I give Young Eagle rides. So far all riders, and their parents, have been just fine with that. Our EAA chapter is pretty active with YE and ususally 3/4 of the planes are experimentals, so they see that it isn't all that unusual - in our world anyway

 

[Russ McCutcheon]

I simply never take people for rides that I don?t know, I won?t even take a passenger that I don?t know as a favor to a friend, I get asked all the time. If you know me well enough to be ?offered? a ride then you already know all about my airplane.

The only exception would be with the parents consent to take a kid up that?s out at the airport dreaming of flying, then just tell them exactly what the aircraft is and its service record.

 

[hydroguy2]

I like to compare my plane to Apple Pie.

You can get an airplane or apple pie at the store....you know factory made.
OR
you can get your airplane or apple pie from a custom shop....you know like Grandma & Grandpa's house.

In other words, Factory-made doesn't necessarily mean better.

 

[Bob Axsom]

I never explain

I just tell them it was a kit called RV-6A and I built it. All I care about is getting them up and down safely. If you want to really get them upset start explaining it like it is something risky and requires an explanation.

Bob Axsom

 

[bryan12]

Apple pie

I like the apple pie refrence,,very nice. Pointing out the number of flying RVs is great too.
definetly trememdously important to not have them scared when they get in the plane, so in depth talking point about accident stats is never good in any plane.

Thanks for the input.

 

[pierre smith]

Invoke the FAA as inspector...

...and tell them that there are FAA designated aircraft inspectors. "They took two hours inspecting mine and found no squawks"....and it was inspected by EAA tech inspectors during the build.

Mentioning an FAA inspection and subsequent approval has placated everyone that asked.

Best,

 

[boom3]

Would it be fair to say it's the "same" or "equal" inspection that a DAR would do on a certified plane?

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

I just ask people "who built the planes that won World War II"?

 

[vic syracuse]

I casually mention that Noah was an amateur and the Titanic was built by professionals. Breaks the ice, if any.

Vic

 

[Paul B]

Liability issues . . .

Even though I am not close to having a completed aircraft, I have put a little thought into this. I would love to take anyone and everyone for a ride in my plane but I no longer think this would be the prudent thing to do. Before anyone other than VERY close family or friends got in the plane I would make sure they knew and understood the following:

1. This airplane was built in my garage by me with no meaningful oversight or supervision.

2. I have no special skills or training that would make me a better airplane builder than the average Joe.

3. The accident record for homebuilt aircraft is not as good the rest of the general aviation fleet.

4. I am not an exceptionally good pilot.

I would also ask them if they had health and life insurance and if they had ever sued anyone.

I would make certain there was at least one witness during this discussion and then insist the would-be passenger think about it and talk it over with their family for a day or so.

 

[gasman]

A 3 would solve all of these issues.................

 

[Alan Carroll]

I always advise them of the experimental nature of the aircraft (as required), followed up with a brief explanation that this means it was built by me rather than by a factory. I also mention the other 6000 flying examples. Regarding potential liability, I tend to think of this as simply another element of the overall risk assessment for each flight. If you find the risk unacceptable, don't do it. Personally I'm not comfortable doing young eagles flights in the RV.

For what its worth I've found passengers to be generally less apprehensive of riding in my shiny new RV than they were of riding in a battered old 172.

 

[[email protected]]

much larger variation with home built...

i would be hesitant to suggest that any homebuilt is safer than a 172.

i will never gloss over the fact that my plane is in fact experimental and was constructed by me without the benefit of production testing, structured quality control, or product liability. we all want to think of our own work as exceptional, or at least above average, but for most builders there are many steep learning curves through the course of the build that introduce significant variability in quality of work. i know that my skills, and understanding of just what i am doing, after 1,600 hours of construction are far superior to when i first began the project.

in the end what i can say about my experimental rv7 versus my 172 is that in the experimental i have had a direct connection to every nut, bolt, rivet, screw, sheet, angle, wire, valve, bearing, tube, hose, etc... and i believe in myself, my work, and my plane... in the 172 i have no connection to the parts but i have faith in the factory.

 

[Alan Carroll]

i would be hesitant to suggest that any homebuilt is safer than a 172.

Me too. More generally I don't want to be in the position of trying to convince anyone that riding in the RV or any other small airplane is inherently safe. However, if they're enthusiastic and understand the risks involved I don't feel that I need to talk them out of it.

 

[n5lp]

Fully informed

My hard and fast rule is to NEVER offer a ride to anyone. Of course I have broken my hard and fast rule quite a few times over the years.

It is a very situational thing. If you are at an RV fly-in and there is someone with their tongue hanging out hanging around your airplane you don't have to be very smart to realize that they know what they are getting into and that they want to be invited, but are too polite.

If the situation is iffier I do the whole spiel. Recently someone expressed a lot of interest in taking a ride. I sent an e-mail that pointed out several things, including the fact that I would greatly enjoy taking them up.

I pointed out that airline flying is the safest means of transport and that business aviation (their background) is almost as safe. After this are automobiles and then things like private factory aircraft, motorcycles and homebuilt aircraft. I mentioned that I built the airplane but I'm not that handy (true). I told them that I built a Van's aircraft kit, of which many thousands are flying and that have a good safety record compared to homebuilt aircraft in general. I told them that Van's airplanes use entirely conventional construction materials and techniques, much like a Cessna 172 or Boeing 747.

I informed them of my opinion that despite statistics, I feel that the pilot can control most of the risks very well, and that I would fly conservatively.

In this case, I never heard from the potential rider again; many other times people have enthusiastically taken me up on the offer which has led to one of the greatest joys of RV ownership and that is just seeing how much an appreciative rider revels in the experience of seeing these wonders from an entirely different perspective and seeing the freedom that is private aviation.

 

[plehrke]

I got more comments from people about my 65 year old Cessna 140 then my brand new RV. They were hesitant to get into anything that was made that long ago.
If someone hesitates to go for a ride in either one it is their loss as I do not want to have anyone aboard that does not feel comfortable being there. Also, i agree with Russ that I do not take people I do not know. My wife is good of not promising rides to her friends that are not "airplane people".
Love the pie analogy. My mom always made great pie. I have had bad store made pie. Of coarse I have had other peoples mom's pies that were not so good.

 

[longranger]

Would it be fair to say it's the "same" or "equal" inspection that a DAR would do on a certified plane?

Of course you mean "type certified", don't you? RV's ARE certified, but in the EXPERIMENTAL, Ameteur-Built category. Comparing homebuilts to "certified" airplanes implies to the uninitiated that homebuilts are not certified, which doesn't help with the public opinion of them.(Just one of my pet peeves I feel obligated to bring up from time to time.)

 

[jnorris]

Of course you mean "type certified", don't you? RV's ARE certified, but in the EXPERIMENTAL, Amateur-Built category.

Actually, as long as we're nit-picking, amateur-built aircraft are certificated, not certified. They are issued an airworthiness certificate, but they are not certified to any specific standard. That's whey they are required to have the passenger warning placard in view of the passengers. We all know that in many cases the actual craftsmanship is much better on an amateur-built aircraft than on type-certified examples, but the FAA does not guarantee that by certifying the aircraft to any standard.

 

[Alan Carroll]

Certified/certificated?

Joe,

It seems like the confusing part is that there are three different kinds certificates: a type certificate, a standard airworthiness certificate, and a special airworthiness certificate. So, "certificated" has multiple meanings.

I found the following language in AC 20-27:

"After we inspect your aircraft and determine it is in a condition for safe operation, we will issue FAA Form 8130-7, Special Airworthiness Certificate, with the appropriate operating limitations in accordance with Order 8130.2."

From this it would seem reasonable to tell passengers that "the FAA inspected the airplane and determined that is in a condition for safe operation" (subject to meeting the requirements of the operating limitations). This avoids the whole "certificated" conundrum.

 

[jnorris]

It seems like the confusing part is that there are three different kinds certificates: a type certificate, a standard airworthiness certificate, and a special airworthiness certificate. So, "certificated" has multiple meanings.

You're absolutely correct Alan. The FAA is pretty good at confusing things by using various terms in multiple ways (Just look at "light-sport aircraft"). I guess maybe that's some kind of job security for them!!

But the truth is, the FAA has never actually stated that your homebuilt aircraft is "in a condition for safe operation". The builder or person doing the condition inspection says that. The FAA's only statement is that the aircraft is "eligible for the certificate requested". Crafty buggers, aren't they!!

 

[Alan Carroll]

But the truth is, the FAA has never actually stated that your homebuilt aircraft is "in a condition for safe operation". The builder or person doing the condition inspection says that. The FAA's only statement is that the aircraft is "eligible for the certificate requested". Crafty buggers, aren't they!!

Joe,

Thanks for the clarification. FWIW I reread the fine print on the back of my special airworthiness certificate, and there's definitely nothing there that a passenger might find encouraging. It pretty much says you can do production tests. In fact its not obvious from the wording that we're even allowed to carry passengers who aren't required crewmembers. Very different than a standard airworthiness cert., which does say the airplane is safe for operation.

I remain a bit puzzled by the wording in AC 20-27G, but I guess the answer is that this is only "advisory".

 

[Jordan17]

I'm here!

I was reading through this thread and saw a couple of comments about not seeing any young people around the aviation world. I'm 20 (yes, most of you could be my dad or grandpa) and maybe I'm just weird, but I love airplanes just as much as any of you older guys. I do feel a little out of place at the EAA meetings. I would say there is at least a 20 year age difference between me and the other youngest guy! I took my first flight lesson when I was 15 and I know I haven't seen the price change as much as most of you, but I kept my receipts for a little comparison. The Cessna 152 I flew in 2005 cost me $58 an hour....now I pay $142 for a Cessna 172. For a 20 year old college student, that is pretty steep! My Grandpa who lived 13 hours away built 2 Pietenpol's and I was fortunate to fly him with over the usual holiday visits. My oldest brother (24 years old) is a C-17 pilot in the AF and was a big motivator in getting my license. Not to mention it has been a big selling point when going on dates

As for getting rides...I look forward to every visit to the airport. My life goal, aside from being a fighter pilot, is to build/own my own airplane...especially an RV. I always enjoy walking around the hangers and talking to the other pilots. Whenever I am offered a ride I feel extremely privileged! I was able to fly left seat in an RV-6A not too long ago with Jerry Martin, which was an absolute blast. Now, I can't speak for all people my age, but whenever someone lets me fly in their plane, it doesn't make my day...it makes my month!

-Jordan

 

[plehrke]

FWIW I reread the fine print on the back of my special airworthiness certificate, and there's definitely nothing there that a passenger might find encouraging. It pretty much says you can do production tests. In fact its not obvious from the wording that we're even allowed to carry passengers who aren't required crewmembers.

In reality, the FAA certificate they give ametuer built aircraft only says it is air worthy to enter phase 1 testing. The only thing that the FAA uses to allow you to carry passengers is that you have not had an accident or found anything unusually bad in the phase 1 testing. I agree it does not sound good if you show that to a passenger.

I do feel a little out of place at the EAA meetings. I would say there is at least a 20 year age difference between me and the other youngest guy! I took my first flight lesson when I was 15 and I know I haven't seen the price change as much as most of you, but I kept my receipts for a little comparison. .......
My oldest brother (24 years old) is a C-17 pilot in the AF and was a big motivator in getting my license. Not to mention it has been a big selling point when going on dates

I do not think it was that much different when I started flying in the early 80s. I was one of the youngest. I think that is partially due to the cost. Young people do not have the disposable income to take up the aviation hobby. You really need to be motivated to spend $142 hour to do something when you are 20 not related to girls or parties (lots of hormones at that age). I tried to take girls up when I was 20 (thought it would help get a date) with little luck. What I did to get with aviation people my age was join an Explorer group. I needed to drive 45 minutes to Anoka MN to attend a meeting but it was aviation and had people my age in it.