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Still need a compass?

frankh

Well Known Member
I have a Dynon EFIS (battery backed up) with the external magnetometor.

I did not fit a compass making the assumption I don't need one.

My FAA inspector is out of the office till tomorrow so before I approach him with the idea (of not having a compas) just wondered what others experiences have been.

I.e has the nasty old thing that no one uses still been required for the inspection.

If it is required, is there anything to stop you picking up one from the autoparts store and making a blank calibration card?..

Frank

RV7a almost ready for inspection
 
You will need a "magnetic direction indicator" to comply with 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U. S. airworthiness certificates: Instruments and equipment requirements. Although this rule does not apply directly to experimental category aircraft, it will most likely be incorporated as part of the operating limitations of your experimental airworthiness certificate.

Certainly a magnetometer coupled to an EFIS meets this requirement. So don't even ask if you must have a compass. Just show your DAR the "magnetic direction indicator" that you have.
 
It may get sticky for IFR Cert

If you want to have the craft certfied for IFR he might insist on it . . . and a clock.
 
Dave Cole said:
You will need a "magnetic direction indicator" to comply with 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U. S. airworthiness certificates: Instruments and equipment requirements. Although this rule does not apply directly to experimental category aircraft, it will most likely be incorporated as part of the operating limitations of your experimental airworthiness certificate.

Certainly a magnetometer coupled to an EFIS meets this requirement. So don't even ask if you must have a compass. Just show your DAR the "magnetic direction indicator" that you have.

A lot of the rules were based on worse-case scenarios. If you lose all electrical and vacuum, are you going to be able to stay right side up and out of the rocks? Your pitot-static system coupled with a standalone compass should be all that you need for partial panel. FWIW, IMO, I'd want the additional traditional or vertical-card compass, but that's up to the DAR and you to decide.
 
Not yet on IFR

jrdalton said:
If you want to have the craft certfied for IFR he might insist on it . . . and a clock.


As I can upgrade to IFR after phase 1 without having the A/C recertified I decided to buy a prewire and tray for a GNS 430 but I have left it out for the time being.

Save money on not buying the unti right now and its not burning up the database either.

Frank
 
frankh said:
I have a Dynon EFIS (battery backed up) with the external magnetometor.

I did not fit a compass making the assumption I don't need one.

My FAA inspector is out of the office till tomorrow so before I approach him with the idea (of not having a compas) just wondered what others experiences have been.

I.e has the nasty old thing that no one uses still been required for the inspection.

If it is required, is there anything to stop you picking up one from the autoparts store and making a blank calibration card?..

Frank

RV7a almost ready for inspection


According to Joe Norris, an ABDAR at Oshkosh, if you fly the plane in day light VFR only, you don't need a compass. As a matter of fact, according to Joe, you don't need anything in the aircraft except what is needed for flight within your airspace (i.e. radio, transponder). If you have any questions about what I'm telling you, contact Joe Norris.

However, if your DAR says you gotta have a compass to fly in daylight - then you gotta have one.
 
I just went through this with my DAR, and he spoke with lot's of FAA folks about it. Bottom line is that he would not require me to have a compass, but he did ask if it was VFR or IFR. Perhaps the answer would be different if I were IFR, though I don't see why.

FWIW, the Dynon D-180 saved me so much panel space that I ended up putting in one of every analog flight instrument anyway, so I ended up with a compass after all.

Rusty
 
Interestingly enough, 91.205 DOES become the rule when night VFR or IFR come into play. I plan to oufit my aircraft with what ever is necessary to fly at night and I believe the Dynon completes that package. However, I also plan to have a compass, airspeed and altimeter as analog backup not to mention batteries for the GPS and handheld trans.
 
I agree with the basic compass response but...

BrickPilot said:
A lot of the rules were based on worse-case scenarios. If you lose all electrical and vacuum, are you going to be able to stay right side up and out of the rocks? Your pitot-static system coupled with a standalone compass should be all that you need for partial panel. FWIW, IMO, I'd want the additional traditional or vertical-card compass, but that's up to the DAR and you to decide.

I agree with your perspective and I have had the problems you mention several times in my flying (my vacuum pump failed today) so I know they are not theoretical but if I lost total electrical power and vacuum in hard IFR I don't see how one could handle that with airspeed, altitude, ball and compass. Seriously, what would be the technique used to maintain attitude?

Bob Axsom
 
partial panel

Bob Axsom said:
... but if I lost total electrical power and vacuum in hard IFR I don't see how one could handle that with airspeed, altitude, ball and compass. Seriously, what would be the technique used to maintain attitude?
I'd use my battery backed up Garmin 196 "panel page". :)

Wouldn't you use the compass to fly in a straight line, the airspeed and altitude indicators to ensure you are not climbing or descending, and the ball to stay coordinated? Of course, this doesn't get you on the ground, and you'd better hope you are over flat land, not mountains. I sure wouldn't want to have to test this in real life.

Just as another data point, Switzerland requires an airspeed indicator and a "non stabilized magnetic direction indicator" as minimum backup for an EFIS in homebuilt aircraft, even though we are restricted to VFR only operations. The single page "Technical Instruction" is here if you are interested. http://db.experimental.ch/EAS-CD/EAS-TI/03-technical-instruction_EFIS.pdf
 
Independant "whiskey compass" is not required. Rules state "magnetic direction indicator". The compass in the Dynon satisfies this rule.
 
rv8ch said:
I'd use my battery backed up Garmin 196 "panel page". :)

FWIW --- My 296's panel page (with battery backup) would do the trick --- if really needed. They work surprisingly well! Even the altitude when using WAAS is very close.
 
BrickPilot said:
A lot of the rules were based on worse-case scenarios. If you lose all electrical and vacuum, are you going to be able to stay right side up and out of the rocks? Your pitot-static system coupled with a standalone compass should be all that you need for partial panel. FWIW, IMO, I'd want the additional traditional or vertical-card compass, but that's up to the DAR and you to decide.

Please don't count on being able to stay right side up without some kind of gyro. I got caught on top of a cloud layer a while back in an aircraft with a compass, pitot static, AND a simple course tracking GPS. Even with over 20,000 hours, and several thousand of that in actual IMC, I couldn't keep things stable.

You NEED some sort of gyro back-up.

Pat
 
IMC on a pitot-static/mag compass

A long time ago I read that the early air mail pilots, pre-Jimmy Doolittle/Sperry, who were caught on top would turn their DH-4 onto a magnetic heading of 180 and let down using the mag compass to indicate a turn. If the air was smooth and your luck was running hot and strong, this just might work. The dip error in the mag compass would cause it to lead turns when on a heading of 180, and therefore exagerate any deviations from wings level flight. Anyone ever try this? Plan B would be to join the Silkworm Club, as did Charles Lindbergh. He landed his parachute, walked over to the wreck, and retrieved the mail sack, as I recall.
 
You first

Stephen Lindberg said:
A long time ago I read that the early air mail pilots, pre-Jimmy Doolittle/Sperry, who were caught on top would turn their DH-4 onto a magnetic heading of 180 and let down using the mag compass to indicate a turn. If the air was smooth and your luck was running hot and strong, this just might work. The dip error in the mag compass would cause it to lead turns when on a heading of 180, and therefore exaggerate any deviations from wings level flight. Anyone ever try this? Plan B would be to join the Silkworm Club, as did Charles Lindbergh. He landed his parachute, walked over to the wreck, and retrieved the mail sack, as I recall.
With a name like Lindberg you try it first? :D

I recall as an inst student my insturctor mentioned the wet compass on 180 could be used for wings level. So we tried to fly with it. The problem is with a C-172 and a hood, you can't help but see out, so it is academic. It was one of those things you thought, nice to know but not practical. I never tried in in IMC. Later as a CFII, I never emphasised using the compass for an emergency wing leveler. Unless you are going to practice it for real, it is way out there. Also practice of the technique is hard to achieve on some planes with the compass above the glare shield. May be in a simulator. This would be one for the myth busters. :p

I taught timed turns for partial panel, use standard rate and counting to your self, roll level, wait, wait, wait, for the compass to stopped spinning, than look, back to needle-ball-airspeed(_alt/vsi). Staring at the compass in a turn, IMC, partial panel or otherwise is a good way to loose control. It just bounces around to much, especially when you are turning. So really I only let my students look at it when level, that was the only practical use IMHO.

In the case of it being your only bank inst, if you get it to swing, you are in trouble while you wait for it to come back, if it ever does. :eek:

On a related note, an examiner tried to tell me the C-172 was so stable you could let it just descend and let go of the yoke, it would spiral safely down. Needless to say the demo went horribly wrong. As the bank increased the speed built, as the bank increased further the nose dropped, the more the bank got ........ well "divergent", more bank and more nose drop, spectacularly. I guess he was wrong.

Add a RV, fast and low drag to the equation, with little to no roll stability, more problems. If you lost it, you would be ............ well you know. Now I did try my Gramin with the HSI display. Covered up my RV-4s gyro and tried to fly as best I could. Now there was no hood and I was VFR. It seemed like I could do it, but than again I was VFR and I was relaxed.

The GPS DG may be more stable than a wet compass on 180, and it might be OK in a C-182? In a RV for real? No. Obviously the update rate may not be fast enough. If you had to do it, it would be a pucker factor 10 for sure. The problem with the wet compass or GPS is if you loose it, you can't really recover. I have watched enough wet compasses in practice with my students to know that compass turns are just not practical. In the RV the speed builds so fast you will be in trouble.

To add to the legend, I have heard people say an AFD was used or could be used as BANK instrument to save the day. If that was in actual and they survived, just using the ADF for bank, they had nerves of steel and big brass ones. I guess practice makes perfect. Like I tell anyone with just a TC or T&B for back up, you better practice needle-ball-N-airspeed, often, if you think you can pull it off in IMC.

I flew "partial panel" for real in a RV-4. Vacuum pump pooped out. I was of course in and out of IMC. I lived, but the T&B was swinging around, back and forth with the turbulence and the planes natural dutch roll. I broke out between layers in a few minutes, thankfully. I don't mind saying I was a little scared. I did not really know how bad much my old T&B (which was rebuilt and yellow tagged) to fly by. My bad. I should have practiced in that plane with that instrument. In a C-172 and a TC it was a non event, but the RV yaws just enough to wag the needle like a happy puppy dog, which I never really notice with stable Gyros working. It is not comfortable splitting the difference to guess if you are yawing or level.

So to your original question, flying by mag compass. I think it is impractical except for those who might practice it to proficiency and in optimal calm conditons in a super stable plane. I think with GPS the mag compass is almost as needed as an ADF, not very. In the Boeing I don't recall looking at it very much, oh yes to check the PFD, primary flight display heading, based on the IRS, inertial refrence system.
 
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Spin

Strange as it sounds, it was true that early pilots caught on top have slowed the airplane down to near stall and entered a spin to descend through the cloud layer and recover in VFR!! Naturally, they either guessed or knew pretty much what the ceiling was. The maneuver prevented over-redlining the airplane from vertigo problems and disintegrating it.

Wonder how many 'splats' there were. :eek:
 
I heard that to, scary

pierre smith said:
Strange as it sounds, it was true that early pilots caught on top have slowed the airplane down to near stall and entered a spin to descend through the cloud layer and recover in VFR!! Naturally, they either guessed or knew pretty much what the ceiling was. The maneuver prevented over-redlining the airplane from vertigo problems and disintegrating it.

Wonder how many 'splats' there were. :eek:
I recall reading about Charles Lindbergh (mail pilot) that a high percentage of the early air mail pilots died. Here is an excerpt from this LINK:

"In 1934, the postmaster general and the airlines were accused of collusion, and as a result, the Army Air Corps resumed flying the mail on Feb. 19, 1934. The decision was disastrous for the untrained, ill-equipped Army fliers. Within six weeks, 12 pilots had died flying the mail and 15 others were critically injured."

Lesson learned 80 years ago is still the same, flying in low vis can be dangerous if not trained and equipped. Funny how things have not really changed.
 
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