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Starting RV-7 I Need advice

Adam W

Well Known Member
ive taken the plunge, found an untouched empenage kit for an RV7. Im new to it all
I want to start but not before im prepared
Tools? do i need that whole list on the Vans site?
Do i need the pneumatic squeezer.
priming? ive been told on everything ive been told only non alclad parts
some say zinc chromate and some say self etching spray can
i live in southern ontario

im assuming the detail in the book and drawings i have yet to read will answer alot of my how to rivet questions
any advice would be appreciated
 
Welcome aboard!
Enjoy the journey.
I love the pneumatic squeezer, but many builders just use a hand squeezer.
If you've never riveted (gun and bucking bar) before, practice on scrap. Or get Vans toolbox practice kit.
Priming is a hotly debated topic. Some prime everything, some nothing. Read the opinions in the 'primer wars' section, form your own opinion.
 
Tools? do i need that whole list on the Vans site?
Do i need the pneumatic squeezer.
priming? ive been told on everything ive been told only non alclad parts
some say zinc chromate and some say self etching spray can
i live in southern ontario

Hi Adam, here's my opinion to get started:

Get one of the RV builder's tool kits available from Cleaveland Aircraft tool (complete airframe package), Aircraft Spruce, Brown Tools. I got mine from Avery but they're no longer operating.
Also essential is a pack of grey scotchbrite pads, maroon scotchbrite pads, a roll of emery tape, bandsaw with blades suitable for aluminium plate, air compressor of course and a bench grinder with linishing wheel and belt attachment. Get a blue scotchbrite belt for the linisher as well as sanding belts in say 100 and 400 grit. I find the scotchbrite belt far better in general than the scotchbrite wheel on the bench grinder.
A 90? die grinder with roloc wheel for sanding discs and scotchbrite discs (blue) is a tool that I use constantly for deburring, dressing and finishing off parts.

No you do not need a pneumatic squeezer, just nice to have. You do need to have a variety of yokes - standard, longeron and a deep no-hole one are what I have. I believe the Cleaveland hand squeezer is very well regarded.

Priming - lots of opinions on this topic, myself I have tried several systems and settled on zinc phosphate aviation rattle cans for small quick parts, and prekote treatment followed by a two-pack epoxy primer (not chromate) for everything else. I have decided to avoid chromates (strontium chromate primer, alodine) due to the associated health hazards.

Join the local chapter of EAA, your local builders will be a great source of help and inspiration.

Good luck,
John.
 
If you go with a hand squeezer, get one that uses the same yokes that a pneumatic squeezer does in case you upgrade. A pneumatic squeezer and a DTR2 dimpler will speed things up. I used NAPA 7220 primer but if I started over might go with alodine, not much more work and weighs nothing.
 
Welcome to the fold and good choice in model!

The seven is right for me too!

Tools, basically a kit is a good starting point. Get specialty stuff as you want them. Yes, want... Not need. Usually you can get by without the fancy stuff, but the fancy stuff sure makes it easy and fun!

:cool: CJ
 
ive taken the plunge, found an untouched empenage kit for an RV7. Im new to it all
I want to start but not before im prepared
Tools? do i need that whole list on the Vans site?
Do i need the pneumatic squeezer.
priming? ive been told on everything ive been told only non alclad parts
some say zinc chromate and some say self etching spray can
i live in southern ontario

im assuming the detail in the book and drawings i have yet to read will answer alot of my how to rivet questions
any advice would be appreciated

Decisions, these are just the beginning. You can do your research here and with search engines too. You will get a lot of widely varying information here, some very well founded some very well intentioned but lacking good references.

Tools, first decision. I bought the complete Avery kit. He has retired and Cleveland, Brown and others have picked up the slack. I was committed, so got the full kit and a little more. Shop setups are a big subject here and quite important to an efficient build, it does not have to be fancy. I am very happy with the pneumatic squeezer and would buy one again, bought a doctor angle drill from eBay:D. Get the Cleveland super flexible hose and manifold for your work bench. I did not but a friend has one and it is super effective. Look here for a complete kit, but don't hesitate, they go fast. Piecemeal will take a lot of your time. Waiting looking and replacing not-so-good pieces.

Corrosion protection: many answers and nearly all are correct as few have owned long enough, or encountered conditions to challenge their decisions. Chromates are out of favor, but there are proven systems that work. Prekote (or equivalent) with a magnesium rich primer is a good primer. There are rattle cans of zinc chromate that will do a good job where not top coat is expected. I would use these systems if starting over. For small jobs, parts, interior, I have found alodine to be the easiest and best. Two gallons will last a very long time. Do you homework on primers and corrosion systems and settle on your system when you start.

You are off to an excellent start, you know the difference between advice and advise. If your and you're are straight, they you are golden.

When you get to the fuse, and painting the inside. Be sure your primer system is compatible with top coats. Use a good 2K primer where top coats will be considered. Also, when choosing the cabin color, select the cabin, seats, panel and outside colors all together. Big decisions, but do it then or possibly do it over later. I have that dilemma now.

Happy building. Oh - read tips and boo-boo's. Use a button magnet to mark the end of your back rivet plate when installing the ribs. It will keep you from trying to rivet without the plate and making a big mess:eek:
 
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your most valuable tool will be this site! there is some serious talent and experience here. Welcome to the journey ;-)
 
The most valuable tool is the one that's free, your brain. Educate it on building techniques before you start pounding rivets. In the US, of course, it's AC 43.13-1B and there are lots of other free references as well. Having a good understanding of "how" and "why" it's supposed to be done a certain way helps you get through those cases where either Vans instructions are incomplete or just plain wrong. Following the instructions blindly without thinking about why they make sense is a sure path down the primrose path. The vast majority of the time, they're right and complete, but there are those times...
 
Welcome aboard! Your going to get more opinions about tools and priming than you will know what to do with! My advice;
Join EAA
Watch all the Hints for Homebuilders videos on EAA website
Schedule a trip to Airventure, attend workshops there, look at all the RV's there
Read and re-read the Construction Manual methods
Read all the stories you can about people building airplanes like yours!

Read this forum, it is the most valuable tool you have! But remember, everyone here is just human and we all make mistakes. Homebuilder Pilots are some of the most opinionated hardheaded confident helpful people you will ever meet! :D
 
If I were starting over again, knowing what I learned in a little over three years of building and now a few months of owning & flying (albeit a different RV), here's what I would do.

First, VAF is your best friend and can also be your worst enemy. :) There is a vast wealth of knowledge and experience here. There are also deeply held and differing opinions on every conceivable bit of minutiae that can waste valuable building time with debate and indecision if you let it.

Start with the Van's tool kit, and maybe do the airfoil kit as well. Get comfortable with the tools and processes. Join EAA. Find local builders. Go to Airventure and see what everyone else has done, and decide what you like and what you don't. That's how we chose a paint scheme and interior.

I had a cheap hand squeezer kit, and a not-cheap pneumatic squeezer. I loved the pneumatic, but honestly if I were doing it again I'd get a REALLY GOOD hand squeezer and skip the pneumatic. I would advise you to avoid the cheap stainless import squeezer - you'll fight to get good results, especially with longer rivets. It flexes more than you would think.

I wonder how many RVs have carefully etched, alodined and primed tails, primed wings and mostly un-primed fuselages. :) It is truly a never ending debate, and the fact that it has not yet been settled by simple examination of un-primed aircraft from the 80s and 90s might tell you something. Automotive paint stores can be a good source of excellent self-etch or epoxy direct-to-metal (DTM) primer for FAR less cost and hassle than something like Akzo.

Van's will tell you to build simple and light, build simple and light, build simple and light. They're absolutely right. There are a lot of options and "upgrades" that will provide marginal benefit if any, and suck up a lot of building time. Of all the "extras" I went with I think the only ones I would do again would be some upgraded vents -- the plastic ones from Van's really do suck. You live where it gets cold, that will matter to you in winter and who wants duct tape in their nice new airplane?

Build the airplane YOU want. There is a never-ending debate over where the third wheel should go, which way the canopy should open, whose EFIS is better, and so on. NONE of the options are wrong. Pick what you like and want. I was dead set on a slider, now I'm flying a tip-up and love it. Whatever.

Congratulations and happy building!
 
Welcome

Welcome Adam.
So much good advise and you've come to the right place to ask questions.
I can't add much to what's been said except to start your research.
So much of what we do is personal and we have to arm ourselves with knowledge to make those decisions.
The only thing I would suggest is to find a mentor. Join your local EAA chapter and ask the group if anyone would like to be your mentor. Probably all will be happy to teach.
Till then, start watching the EAA videos and reading threads of interest here on VAF.
 
I, too just started my journey in Jan....just completed the horiz and vert stabs. No prior building experience

Tools: I bought the tool kit from Cleaveland tools, and upgraded to a pneumatic squeezer and the DRDT dimpler. I've only worked on the tail, but dont know how others do this project without the pneumatic squeezer. Also, Mike is a wealth of information and can answer all your questions. He also has several very informative videos on youtube demonstrating how to use everything.

Primer: like you, my head was spinning on this subject. I've been using rattle can self-etch with mixed results, but plan on switching to the SW P60G2 for the wings/fuse. Cheap and thats what's used on QB kits, so its good enough for me.

Hands on experience: i ordered 2 practice airfoil kits from van's...one to experiment with and one to hone the skills. Ended up starting on the real kit before i finished, because I had an xperienced builder friend help me get started. Highly recommend that if you can find someone. The skills aren't hard to learn, but its nice to have an experienced person show you what's "good enough".

Your confidence will build quickly. And expect to make mistakes along the way. I just ordered new rudder skins and right elvator skin from a slip up. Bruised the ego a bit, but its gonna happen.

Have fun!
 
Keep an eye out for tools on the classifieds, there was just a listing of a lifetime, complete set and parts, that just got sold.
 
thank you

thank you to everyone fr their replies and helpfull advice.
i am ordering my tool kit now. and the advice has been so helpfull
 
Adam
One of your BEST resources is local builders. There are quite a few RVs based at the Brampton airport. Charlie Douma would be a great contact for you, he is a multiple builder and will get you started in the right way.
There are a few RVs at the Waterloo airport and we have five or six on the field at St.Thomas where I live.
The internet is an amazing tool but there is nothing like actually talking to builders and seeing the tools and processes in action.

Feel free to call me at

519-281-1369
 
Adam
I'm in Ontario as well. Having finished more than a few rv models, my wish I had bought it years ago tool is the Cleaveland squeezer. They have the Main squeeze, or the geezer squeezer. The geezer is a bit less pricey. I have it. When your wrists and fingers become pensionable, they will thank you for spending the cash. It uses the same yokes as the pneumatic unit.
As others have said, don't get bogged down in opinions of nit pickers. If it doesn't seem correct, stop and think again.
Wear your goggle and mask when appropriate, health can't be reordered.
Always remember to enjoy the journey, it will be over soon enough if you are persistent.
Yes it's worth it.
 
New build

Notes from my experience.
SEM rattle can self etch primer adhearance is superior and dries very fast. I've heard
Also that Rustolium self etch is as good. Prime the mating surfaces and the
non-allclad parts. The airplane will have better re-sale value. Corrosion happens with humidity.

Personally over the course of your build you won't regret spending money on tools that will help the quality, speed and enjoyment. 3m 6" polishing wheel for your bench grinder, Pneumatic squeezer with quick change pins, adjustable drive shank(whatever it's called)and 3 yokes. (Longeron, no hole, 3 or 4" regular) a hand belt sander works on a bench, small table top band saw, 10"chop saw (miter box) with carbide blade is the best way to cut aluminum angle, 1/4" palm drill Souix is worth the money, tungsten bucking bar you will learn to love.

Learn to dimple with a good dimple die so there is no deflection around the dimple before you touch your kit. Don't use to much air pressure with a 3x gun when riveting #3 skin rivets. 30-35lbs. Learn the proper shop size spec on a rivet. The spec is in the fac section of Vans website. Use a caliper to measure diam and height. It will become second nature from there.

Good luck. It's a very fun process.
PS. The Yard Store sells used tools. Great catalog
 
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Money, money nad more money.....oh and TIME

Welcome to the build. In my Humble Oponion unless you have skads fo the above stop right now because this thing takes lots.

However, having said that I may complete mine after six years and have found the following tools to be EXTREMELY helpful:

Organizer boxes, at least six good sized with many sizes of compartments, you will recieve hundreds of little parts and you WILL forget where you put them without these. Often on sale at Canadian Tire or Walmart

The tungsten bucking bar is surely the best of all mine, costly but it really helps

My Compressor is small and works ok but i curse it at times. I would by one that is oil lubricated(quieter) and have at least 10CFM@ 90 PSI. I like using air drills and die grinders and mine will run out of air lots of times

Handy but not necessary is the expandable hole locator

For cutting my canopy and a myriad of chores very small I have a Dremel tool and its cousin the vibrating drywall cutter.... both have saved me a lot.

Otherwise, I purchased many tools over the internet, used on ebay and yes i was scammed on one or two but overall i did save a buck. The forum here has some on for sail but you have to be quick as they are gone the moment the come on.

Good tools will make the job much easier and yes you will spend at least two thousand dollars Canadian buying good ones and perhaps less if you already have some. I did say these planes cost money, money, money :)

The forum here is your best tool and i donate each year gladly to at least see if i have any company on my mess ups....lol

Good luck and yes it is fun and the closer i get the more fun it has become!
 
Organization

Boy there's some good advise.
Find a method that works early.
I use those cabinets with the little drawers. I have three from Harbor Fright.

I have a Builders Excel Spreadsheet. One of the tabs is a complete inventory for the 7 (a).
I use a column to document shop location for every part. Cuts the search down to minutes and saves a lot of time over the build. There are two tabs for every major secton. Financial and Timesheet. All total back to a main sheet. Every page has a header for Builder# Title, Page of Pages.
Shoot me an e-mail if you want it.
 
I started by buying the tools that I needed and bought more as I went along. This probably isn't the easiest way to get all your tools. I like the tools that I bought from Cleveland Tools so their kit might be a good starting point. They sell a quick change drill chuck which is very handy. I started with a cheap drill but later bought a Souix 1412, nice drill, buy one.
For rivet squeezes I have seversl. I have a Tatco hand squeezer. I love it. Not too heavy and lighter than the squeezer that take the pneumatic yokes, but I can't really squeeze a number 4 with it. I also have a Main Squeeze. I'm actually not super fond of it. Mostly because it has a strange action and since I mostly work alone it's hard to use one handed. It will squeeze a number 4 rivet though. I also gave a pneumatic squeezer. If you can afford one buy one. These Make number 4 Rivets a snap. You'll be installing lots of number 4 rivets so I recommend one. I'm not sure if you xan still buy the Avery hand squeezer but I think if I had to buy only one that would be the one. It's a good compromise.
 
RE: Van's practice kits

The airfoil kit provides helpful practice riveting trailing edges and rolling leading edges.

The tool box provides helpful practice reading unclear directions!

SportAir workshops are worth doing.

Don't doubt your own decisions on the questions without clear answers (primer, for example). Decide and keep moving. The temptation to paralysis by analysis is overwhelming. Which engine? Prop? Third wheel? Gear legs? Do I install a flop tube? EFIS? I'm obsessing about all of these things. Don't be me!

Cleaveland are great folks. Mike is always willing to help on the phone or email.
 
ive taken the plunge, found an untouched empenage kit for an RV7. Im new to it all
I want to start but not before im prepared
Tools? do i need that whole list on the Vans site?

....


any advice would be appreciated


Sell the 7 tail and buy a 9. Sorry couldn't resist Adam welcome to the obsession! All good advice is already given :D
 
thanks again keep advie coming

wow wow cant believe the response thanks to all for the advice keep it coming. i am looking at preview plans over and over getting used to how they convey info. welcoming all this help
 
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