claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
I've searched for the thread with all the golden photos of this SB being complied with but came up empty. Is the repair information still available?
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SB 14-01-31 Completion Thread?
- Thread starter claycookiemonster
- Start date
You might be talking about the thread sticky'ed at the very top of this forum page ( RV Ongoing Maintenance Issues)?
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Nope
There was another thread where photos of the fix in progress were posted, see post #568 of the sticky thread. I'm finding this SB challenging, not impossible, but challenging. Drilling out the rivets at the outer ends of the Splice Angle and Reinforcement Angle is a huge challenge, mostly limited by the geometry of the 90 degree drill. In one post within the sticky thread, it is mentioned to use a drill bushing to ensure the drill goes straight, and I'd have been glad to do so, but I can't see how any bushing overcomes the space limitations above the manufactured head.
I'm still looking for pictures of the SB repair in progress.
There was another thread where photos of the fix in progress were posted, see post #568 of the sticky thread. I'm finding this SB challenging, not impossible, but challenging. Drilling out the rivets at the outer ends of the Splice Angle and Reinforcement Angle is a huge challenge, mostly limited by the geometry of the 90 degree drill. In one post within the sticky thread, it is mentioned to use a drill bushing to ensure the drill goes straight, and I'd have been glad to do so, but I can't see how any bushing overcomes the space limitations above the manufactured head.
I'm still looking for pictures of the SB repair in progress.
I followed along on this build log and found it very useful. I hope he doesn't mind me posting the link.
http://www.bretsplane.com/2-09-14.html
http://www.bretsplane.com/2-09-14.html
wirejock
Well Known Member
Drilling rivets
That's the problem area. I messed up on the last two. Waiting for the bad news from the mother ship.
That's the problem area. I messed up on the last two. Waiting for the bad news from the mother ship.
Smilin' Jack
Well Known Member
A really small 90 degree drill and an automatic center punch help a lot on getting this accomplished... The center punch helps define the rivet mark and drill the rivet starting with a very small bit and work your way up to size needed for the rivet.
J
J
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Yup, but still
I can't get the drill bit aligned exactly along the centerline of the rivet no matter how I try. I've center punched the man heads, and I can start the drilling pretty much dead center, but the skin always induces a bit of an angle to the hole I drill. The best I can seem to do is to only use a #40 bit, but that leaves alot of material along the edges and makes "breaking off" the man head hard. Quite alot of the time I'm only distorting the drilled hole. My best work has been to end up actually drilling all the way thru the rivet, but keeping the slightly inclined #40 hole within the original #30 hole & rivet.
Very frustrating. That's why I'm desperately seeking pictures. I'll check out the link, thanks.
I can't get the drill bit aligned exactly along the centerline of the rivet no matter how I try. I've center punched the man heads, and I can start the drilling pretty much dead center, but the skin always induces a bit of an angle to the hole I drill. The best I can seem to do is to only use a #40 bit, but that leaves alot of material along the edges and makes "breaking off" the man head hard. Quite alot of the time I'm only distorting the drilled hole. My best work has been to end up actually drilling all the way thru the rivet, but keeping the slightly inclined #40 hole within the original #30 hole & rivet.
Very frustrating. That's why I'm desperately seeking pictures. I'll check out the link, thanks.
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Maybe I'm the wrong way around?
Referencing the link to bret's plane site. He's drilling out the rivets from the aft end, so his manufactured heads must have been aft. My man heads are forward and the construction directions don't seem to direct either way as correct, though the Splice and Reinforcement angle material is much heavier, so to avoid putting the shop head on the thinner material, it would make sense to have man heads aft and shop heads forward. So, my issue is working within the narrowing leading edge space and trying to get a drill bit square there; drilling out from the back side would be MUCH easier. Otherwise, he's doing it about like I am.
My photos have also been sent off to the experts in Aurora. Hopefully I'll only have to replace the angles and then I can get back to work.
Next challenge: trimming the spar flange beneath the skin. I've dremmeled the angle and removed the piece. Trying to get back in there to smooth out the edge of the spar flange is going to be tricky. I've gotten a few really tiny files. I'm hoping that I can seperate the flange from the skin with some scrap and protect the work area with the SS bit and get in there to file the edge off.
I've got smallish hands, I can't imagine big guys getting this done.
Referencing the link to bret's plane site. He's drilling out the rivets from the aft end, so his manufactured heads must have been aft. My man heads are forward and the construction directions don't seem to direct either way as correct, though the Splice and Reinforcement angle material is much heavier, so to avoid putting the shop head on the thinner material, it would make sense to have man heads aft and shop heads forward. So, my issue is working within the narrowing leading edge space and trying to get a drill bit square there; drilling out from the back side would be MUCH easier. Otherwise, he's doing it about like I am.
My photos have also been sent off to the experts in Aurora. Hopefully I'll only have to replace the angles and then I can get back to work.
Next challenge: trimming the spar flange beneath the skin. I've dremmeled the angle and removed the piece. Trying to get back in there to smooth out the edge of the spar flange is going to be tricky. I've gotten a few really tiny files. I'm hoping that I can seperate the flange from the skin with some scrap and protect the work area with the SS bit and get in there to file the edge off.
I've got smallish hands, I can't imagine big guys getting this done.
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Fingers crossed!
I'm pressing ahead with the repair, but stopping short of the point where I'd prevent the SB parts from being usable in other circumstances. Got the Spar flange's trimmed, trimmed the main ribs, got the doublers clamped in place to begin the match drilling.
Now I just have to pray Santa and the elves of Aurora come through and say I haven't been so naughty that I must totally rebuild this!
I'm pressing ahead with the repair, but stopping short of the point where I'd prevent the SB parts from being usable in other circumstances. Got the Spar flange's trimmed, trimmed the main ribs, got the doublers clamped in place to begin the match drilling.
Now I just have to pray Santa and the elves of Aurora come through and say I haven't been so naughty that I must totally rebuild this!
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Me too
Today I got the same response from Van's. No relief from the need for nice clean round holes in spar web and angles, but the option to either go to -5 rivets or Cherrymax. Van's can supply 1/8" Cherrymax rivets, but isn't a supplier for larger sizes. My options are:
1. Re-order the parts to re-make the Splice and Reinforcement Angles, drill them cleanly to the original #30 (1/8") and use them in my HS.
2. Keep my current angles and drill them out to 5/32" and use Cherrymax.
My problem wasn't the spar web; it was the angles. I was unable to get my drill on centerline with the rivets, so I ended up drilling at a slight angle that came out pretty much spot on the hole thru the spar web, but damaged the angles.
Guess I get to learn about Cherrymax riveting now. The schooling never stops!
Today I got the same response from Van's. No relief from the need for nice clean round holes in spar web and angles, but the option to either go to -5 rivets or Cherrymax. Van's can supply 1/8" Cherrymax rivets, but isn't a supplier for larger sizes. My options are:
1. Re-order the parts to re-make the Splice and Reinforcement Angles, drill them cleanly to the original #30 (1/8") and use them in my HS.
2. Keep my current angles and drill them out to 5/32" and use Cherrymax.
My problem wasn't the spar web; it was the angles. I was unable to get my drill on centerline with the rivets, so I ended up drilling at a slight angle that came out pretty much spot on the hole thru the spar web, but damaged the angles.
Guess I get to learn about Cherrymax riveting now. The schooling never stops!
wirejock
Well Known Member
Cherrymax
Whichever you decide, check the call outs on page 21 of the SB. I think they have an error. Most are countersink style. I sent an e-mail to the Mother Ship and have not received a response yet. Also waiting to hear about my problem. Hopefully it's just new H710 and H714 angles.
Whichever you decide, check the call outs on page 21 of the SB. I think they have an error. Most are countersink style. I sent an e-mail to the Mother Ship and have not received a response yet. Also waiting to hear about my problem. Hopefully it's just new H710 and H714 angles.
MikeyDale
Well Known Member
I could not get the right angle on my angle drill so I drilled out an additional 3 rivets on the skin/spar, besides the two that the instructions call for. This allowed me to insert a short 2x4 wood spacer to hold the skin apart from the angle just enough to get the angle I needed. The three additional rivets are very easy to drill straight and easy to replace.....
wirejock
Well Known Member
Bad holes
Follow up.
Word from the Mother Ship is "if #20 drill does not clean up the hole, engineers recommend replacement". My spar had one hole so I drilled the skin rivets on the effected side and removed the spar. It was no problem. Now I can order new parts and finish the SB.
Follow up.
Word from the Mother Ship is "if #20 drill does not clean up the hole, engineers recommend replacement". My spar had one hole so I drilled the skin rivets on the effected side and removed the spar. It was no problem. Now I can order new parts and finish the SB.
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
The Saga continues...
It seemed to me that the Splice and Reinforcement angles took the brunt of the misdrilling, so I ordered replacement HS-810 and HS-814 parts. They've arrived, but they've added new questions.
1. While the original angles had 18 holes evenly spaced from end to end, these new ones eliminate the fifth hole from each end, so there are 4 rivets at each end intended to capture the spar out beneath the HS skin and 8 rivets to capture the central spar web for a total of 16. The missing holes are very close to the bend in the spar; given all the stresses concentrated there, removing them might make sense, but there is no guidance. Can I leave the hole in the spar web unfilled beneath the now-solid Splice or Reinforcement angle? Should I match drill the undrilled angle to put a rivet there? Suppose the hole in the spar web at that location was enlarged during the removal of the angles? Suppose the Splice or Reinforcement angle hole at that location was buggered up, can I put the angle back unfilled?
2. The pre-drilled holes in the HS-814 Splice angle are no longer aligned, only 4 of 8 central rivet holes will match existing holes in the spar web, and the other 4 holes don't provide sufficient edge distance from the existing holes in the spar.
All questions have been sent off to the Mother Ship, I'll provide answers here as soon as I get them. Has anyone else already gotten answers to this?
It seemed to me that the Splice and Reinforcement angles took the brunt of the misdrilling, so I ordered replacement HS-810 and HS-814 parts. They've arrived, but they've added new questions.
1. While the original angles had 18 holes evenly spaced from end to end, these new ones eliminate the fifth hole from each end, so there are 4 rivets at each end intended to capture the spar out beneath the HS skin and 8 rivets to capture the central spar web for a total of 16. The missing holes are very close to the bend in the spar; given all the stresses concentrated there, removing them might make sense, but there is no guidance. Can I leave the hole in the spar web unfilled beneath the now-solid Splice or Reinforcement angle? Should I match drill the undrilled angle to put a rivet there? Suppose the hole in the spar web at that location was enlarged during the removal of the angles? Suppose the Splice or Reinforcement angle hole at that location was buggered up, can I put the angle back unfilled?
2. The pre-drilled holes in the HS-814 Splice angle are no longer aligned, only 4 of 8 central rivet holes will match existing holes in the spar web, and the other 4 holes don't provide sufficient edge distance from the existing holes in the spar.
All questions have been sent off to the Mother Ship, I'll provide answers here as soon as I get them. Has anyone else already gotten answers to this?
SuperCubDriver
Well Known Member
I messed up the drilling of the rivets too and was preparing a new HS-714 splice angle. I did drill the four holes for the bolts going into the fuselage in the bottom flange with a milling machine using the original angle as a drill guide and was not successful to hit the exact location. The two angles were on top of each other while drilling and the distance of the flanges allowed the drill bit to move or bent slightly.
Also waiting for parts now - I suggest to matchdrill these holes through the fuselage holes or make a matchdrilled one inch wide aluminum or steel bar and use this itself as a drill guide for the angle clamping it tight on the bottom of the angle. I believe it´s a good idea drilling these holes before drilling the angles to the spar - just in case.
Also waiting for parts now - I suggest to matchdrill these holes through the fuselage holes or make a matchdrilled one inch wide aluminum or steel bar and use this itself as a drill guide for the angle clamping it tight on the bottom of the angle. I believe it´s a good idea drilling these holes before drilling the angles to the spar - just in case.
bret
Well Known Member
not at all, I have looked at others build sites along this journy, a picture is worth a lot, for me anyways
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
'Splain me
Fortunately (?) I'm working on an as-yet unassembled airplane. I don't have to re-create fuselage attach points; just re-doing the HS parts is enough. Nothing in this SB is impossible, it's just that so many small details show up unannounced and unexplained. If two rivet holes in each of the two angles (the fifth from the outer end of the angle) can be eliminated, that's fine; just tell me how to proceed: leave the holes in the spar web unfilled beneath the solid part of the angle or match drill the angle from the spar web. I can do either, but not addressing this only generates a call to Van's.
So far the only potential show-stopper is the angle on the bottom of the HS, the one that attaches to the Fuse. The new part has staggered the 8 holes which attach to the central spar web so that 4 of them no longer line up with the holes drilled into the spar web. I'm hoping that the code still exists within Van's CAD/CAM world so that I can get a new version of the old angle with holes in a row. The question has been asked; I'll report back.
Fortunately (?) I'm working on an as-yet unassembled airplane. I don't have to re-create fuselage attach points; just re-doing the HS parts is enough. Nothing in this SB is impossible, it's just that so many small details show up unannounced and unexplained. If two rivet holes in each of the two angles (the fifth from the outer end of the angle) can be eliminated, that's fine; just tell me how to proceed: leave the holes in the spar web unfilled beneath the solid part of the angle or match drill the angle from the spar web. I can do either, but not addressing this only generates a call to Van's.
So far the only potential show-stopper is the angle on the bottom of the HS, the one that attaches to the Fuse. The new part has staggered the 8 holes which attach to the central spar web so that 4 of them no longer line up with the holes drilled into the spar web. I'm hoping that the code still exists within Van's CAD/CAM world so that I can get a new version of the old angle with holes in a row. The question has been asked; I'll report back.
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
The Plot thickens
Having buggered up the HS 814 Splice Angle and HS 810 Reinforcement Angles while removing the rivets, I ordered replacements to be installed during the completion of the SB. Well...
Issue #!: It turns out the replacement HS 814 angle (the one on the bottom) isn't exactly the same as the one I removed; the holes for riveting to the center spar web are "staggered" a bit while the ones on my original angle and the spar are all in a line. I wouldn't have sufficient edge distance from the original holes to the new location from the new HS 814. I'm not sure if the part changed over time, I'm building a kit from about 2002, or if the change is part of the SB. A note has been sent off to the Mother Ship with photos asking whether I can fab up a new HS 814 with holes aligned to match the existing holes in the spar web and still complete and be in compliance with the SB. If I must use the new HS 814, then my spar web will have to go and I might as well do a new HS from scratch.
Issue #2: I'm finding that holes third from the center on top and bottom of the new HS-00003 Doubler will be very close to the Relief Notches I created in the spar web. Figure 7 of the SB instructions show Doubler installation, but the figure doesn't show the notches, it shows the central spar web "un-notched" so the edge distance conflict isn't apparent.
I can't be the only guy doing this SB on an older -8 kit, but I haven't heard of anyone else having these problems with edge distance.
I'm hoping to hear back from the Master Base, but I always ask here too: can anyone confirm or deny these problems?
Having buggered up the HS 814 Splice Angle and HS 810 Reinforcement Angles while removing the rivets, I ordered replacements to be installed during the completion of the SB. Well...
Issue #!: It turns out the replacement HS 814 angle (the one on the bottom) isn't exactly the same as the one I removed; the holes for riveting to the center spar web are "staggered" a bit while the ones on my original angle and the spar are all in a line. I wouldn't have sufficient edge distance from the original holes to the new location from the new HS 814. I'm not sure if the part changed over time, I'm building a kit from about 2002, or if the change is part of the SB. A note has been sent off to the Mother Ship with photos asking whether I can fab up a new HS 814 with holes aligned to match the existing holes in the spar web and still complete and be in compliance with the SB. If I must use the new HS 814, then my spar web will have to go and I might as well do a new HS from scratch.
Issue #2: I'm finding that holes third from the center on top and bottom of the new HS-00003 Doubler will be very close to the Relief Notches I created in the spar web. Figure 7 of the SB instructions show Doubler installation, but the figure doesn't show the notches, it shows the central spar web "un-notched" so the edge distance conflict isn't apparent.
I can't be the only guy doing this SB on an older -8 kit, but I haven't heard of anyone else having these problems with edge distance.
I'm hoping to hear back from the Master Base, but I always ask here too: can anyone confirm or deny these problems?
BillL
Well Known Member
Have you looked at this video? It seemed to cover the subject pretty well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgE0T8EMaZk.
It was posted in the primary thread on this bulletin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgE0T8EMaZk.
It was posted in the primary thread on this bulletin.
wirejock
Well Known Member
HS SB
I buggered one hole past the #20 repair threshold. Since the repair required a new forward spar and reinforcement angles, I elected to completely disassemble and replace both forward spars, inboard ribs and reinforcement angles. I've got it all clekoed together now. It's not something a builder with a nice pretty flying plane would want to do. Mine was not assembled yet and I'm glad I went this route. It wasn't difficult to disassemble and it's like a new HS now.
I buggered one hole past the #20 repair threshold. Since the repair required a new forward spar and reinforcement angles, I elected to completely disassemble and replace both forward spars, inboard ribs and reinforcement angles. I've got it all clekoed together now. It's not something a builder with a nice pretty flying plane would want to do. Mine was not assembled yet and I'm glad I went this route. It wasn't difficult to disassemble and it's like a new HS now.
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claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Video!
Thanks, BillL, that video had one enormous help for me. I hadn't realized there was some flexibility in positioning the Doublers to allow one to avoid edge distance issues. I'll erase all my sharpie marks and go back to the start and see if I can find a "happy place"
I'm also going to try the spring punch method of removing rivets. Seems like just drilling a partial hole into the rivet weakens the rivet enough that it can be broken by the spring and punched thru? Never thought of that!
Whether I can solve the hole alignment issues with the new HS 814 is another issue.
Thanks, BillL, that video had one enormous help for me. I hadn't realized there was some flexibility in positioning the Doublers to allow one to avoid edge distance issues. I'll erase all my sharpie marks and go back to the start and see if I can find a "happy place"
I'm also going to try the spring punch method of removing rivets. Seems like just drilling a partial hole into the rivet weakens the rivet enough that it can be broken by the spring and punched thru? Never thought of that!
Whether I can solve the hole alignment issues with the new HS 814 is another issue.
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
Relief!
I heard from Van's today, and generally good news. To recap, I have two distinct but related problems:
1. Insufficient edge distance between the Relief Notch created by the SB and the third hole from the center of the HS on the Doubler on top and bottom. The answer received today (1/19) was, quoting:
"This short ED on the doubler hole directly under the relief notch is a known problem and will be acceptable."
So, it's acceptable. I'm not crazy about that answer, it feels like I'm planting the seeds for the next SB. I will attempt to slide the Doubler around (as shown in the video ahead of this post in this same thread) in an attempt to get the greatest reasonable edge distance.
2. Due to buggering up the HS-814 during rivet removal, I ordered a new one only to find that the hole pattern didn't match my original HS-814 and therefore the holes in the central spar web. Van's has confirmed that my kit (#81651 ordered sometime in 2002) didn't include a finished HS-814. Kits of my vintage came with a section of aluminum angle to be fashioned into the HS-814. I'm now cleared to get another piece of angle and fashion a new "old school" HS-814.
Summing up: I can grudgingly accept less than normal edge distance between this one hole in the Doubler/Spar web and the Relief Notch: it's a known "problem" and is "acceptable." I can also fab my own new HS-814 to replace my buggered up HS-814 so it will fit my current H Stab without having to move holes around.
Overall pretty good news. Confidence is High, I repeat, Confidence is High.
I heard from Van's today, and generally good news. To recap, I have two distinct but related problems:
1. Insufficient edge distance between the Relief Notch created by the SB and the third hole from the center of the HS on the Doubler on top and bottom. The answer received today (1/19) was, quoting:
"This short ED on the doubler hole directly under the relief notch is a known problem and will be acceptable."
So, it's acceptable. I'm not crazy about that answer, it feels like I'm planting the seeds for the next SB. I will attempt to slide the Doubler around (as shown in the video ahead of this post in this same thread) in an attempt to get the greatest reasonable edge distance.
2. Due to buggering up the HS-814 during rivet removal, I ordered a new one only to find that the hole pattern didn't match my original HS-814 and therefore the holes in the central spar web. Van's has confirmed that my kit (#81651 ordered sometime in 2002) didn't include a finished HS-814. Kits of my vintage came with a section of aluminum angle to be fashioned into the HS-814. I'm now cleared to get another piece of angle and fashion a new "old school" HS-814.
Summing up: I can grudgingly accept less than normal edge distance between this one hole in the Doubler/Spar web and the Relief Notch: it's a known "problem" and is "acceptable." I can also fab my own new HS-814 to replace my buggered up HS-814 so it will fit my current H Stab without having to move holes around.
Overall pretty good news. Confidence is High, I repeat, Confidence is High.
claycookiemonster
Well Known Member
...oh, and there's just one more thing.
I chatted briefly with Van's today. It occurred to me to see if they could send me a new HS-814 before they drilled the holes to save me from the fab time. Turns out these are sent out to a CNC mill for creation, so the milling and drilling happen together and outside of Van's.
Would've been nice, but it's going to be an old school HS-814 for me.
I chatted briefly with Van's today. It occurred to me to see if they could send me a new HS-814 before they drilled the holes to save me from the fab time. Turns out these are sent out to a CNC mill for creation, so the milling and drilling happen together and outside of Van's.
Would've been nice, but it's going to be an old school HS-814 for me.
