RV12 VFR to IFR - Dynon SkyView equipped

[mmahony1]

I've resolved to start working towards my instrument rating and am looking for the most economical way to set up my RV12 (E-LSA with the appropriate operating limitations verbiage) to be both IFR legal AND appropriately equipped for a checkride. Less concerned with being equipped for actual as I doubt I'll ever intentionally take this plane into IMC.

Current panel includes:
- Single SkyView Classic display
- Garmin SL40 Com
- Dynon AP with the two panel-mounted control modules

For the checkride I anticipate needing to add the following:
- Backup AI
- NAV radio for ILS
- IFR GPS navigator

I started going down the rabbit hole of SL40 > GNC 255 (or similar NAV/COM), GPS 175, G5 (or similar backup AI) but that approach pushes the cost up pretty quickly.

Which leads me to questions for the community:
1. Are there any downsides to just going with an old GTN430W NAV/COM/GPS and removing the SL40 altogether?
2. Assuming it all fits in the panel, I assume I would be better off just adding a secondhand SkyView Classic/Touch display and removing my map box (edit: instead of going with a small backup AI like a G5). Basically plug and play integration with existing SV, more real estate, etc., for roughly the same cost of a G5. Any gotchas here?

Would love to hear from anyone who has done similar in a -12.

 

[Benjamj]

I've resolved to start working towards my instrument rating and am looking for the most economical way to set up my RV12 (E-LSA with the appropriate operating limitations verbiage) to be both IFR legal AND appropriately equipped for a checkride. Less concerned with being equipped for actual as I doubt I'll ever intentionally take this plane into IMC.

Current panel includes:
- Single SkyView Classic display
- Garmin SL40 Com
- Dynon AP with the two panel-mounted control modules

For the checkride I anticipate needing to add the following:
- Backup AI
- NAV radio for ILS
- IFR GPS navigator

I started going down the rabbit hole of SL40 > GNC 255 (or similar NAV/COM), GPS 175, G5 (or similar backup AI) but that approach pushes the cost up pretty quickly.

Which leads me to questions for the community:
1. Are there any downsides to just going with an old GTN430W NAV/COM/GPS and removing the SL40 altogether?
2. Assuming it all fits in the panel, I assume I would be better off just adding a secondhand SkyView Classic/Touch display and removing my map box. Basically plug and play integration with existing SV, more real estate, etc., for roughly the same cost of a G5. Any gotchas here?

Would love to hear from anyone who has done similar in a -12.

I equipped our -12 similarly. I was tearing out a D180 system, and replaced it with a dual skyview classic setup, alongside a G430W and a D10. I'll PM you my phone number.

 

[lucas2696]

A 430W is a solid unit, but keep in mind that Garmin is no longer supporting them. I'd find it to be a tough pill to swallow to spend all the time and money to put one in the panel knowing I'm SOL if it has a problem.

 

[snowsam]

We did the upgrade from a classic skyview to a Skyview Touch. Dynon has/had an upgrade program where they gave you credit when you buy from them and then sent the old unit back.

Besides resetting up all the items that did not transfer via the backup, it was plug and play.

 

[uk_figs]

You might check with your local DPE but there are a number of threads on this site about whether you actually need a Nav/Com for ILS to complete a IFR check ride as many people are just putting in GPS based systems these days. Could add a Garmin 175 and a G5 or AV-30 and be good.
Figs

 

[mmahony1]

A 430W is a solid unit, but keep in mind that Garmin is no longer supporting them. I'd find it to be a tough pill to swallow to spend all the time and money to put one in the panel knowing I'm SOL if it has a problem.

Hi Lucas, yeah, well aware they are out of support but the cost vs alternatives is compelling. A used 430W is about $3.5k, while a dedicated nav/com and GPS175 pushes up near (or past) $10k pretty easily. The way I look at it, I can replace the 430W twice before it becomes more expensive.

I equipped our -12 similarly. I was tearing out a D180 system, and replaced it with a dual skyview classic setup, alongside a G430W and a D10. I'll PM you my phone number.

Ben, very interested in seeing a photo of your panel. Why did you choose to go with a D10 in addition to a second skyview display? I'm under the impression that second display can be your backup instrumentation as they are basically independent (but networked) systems.

 

[Dugaru]

A 430W is a solid unit, but keep in mind that Garmin is no longer supporting them.

You guys are trolling me, right?!?

This is wildly false, at least according to.... Garmin.

There is only one limitation, currently -- a GNS 430W display module can no longer be replaced. Garmin otherwise hopes to continue to support the 430W for "decades," unquote.

Hi Lucas, yeah, well aware they are out of support but the cost vs alternatives is compelling.

Again, the 430W is not even remotely "out of support."

AND it is freaking awesome. You are of course correct that the cost of a 430W vs. alternatives is eye-watering.

 

[mmahony1]

Evangelist for In-Ear Headsets and the Trusty Garmin 430W

True to form lol!

Thanks for pointing that out, Doug. I didn't realize it was only the screen module and had thought it was any repair.

My only reservation with the 430 now is that if I get rid of my COM radio the 430 doesn't have the capability to monitor standby. Maybe not that big of a deal but I've never flown a plane without the ability to monitor a second channel. If I kept both COM radio and 430 is there a way around adding an audio panel? Space in the RV12 center stack is tight.

 

[mmahony1]

And, Benjamj, thanks for the photos of your panel and input on your thought process!

 

[Dugaru]

I didn't realize it was only the screen module and had thought it was any repair.

No worries, it's a shockingly common misconception.

Now, I'm not going to say that any needed repairs will be cheap. Garmin's minimum shop charge is... aggressive. But you'd face that with any Garmin product, and I think Avidyne has instituted similar policie$.

If I kept both COM radio and 430 is there a way around adding an audio panel? Space in the RV12 center stack is tight.

Above my pay grade, but my guess is that you will need an audio panel of some sort to run an SL40 and a 430W simultaneously. I would be delighted to be wrong about that.

We recently sourced a used audio panel for our Zenith 801 project, and deals are to be had out there. You might also be able to source/trade for a second comm that's smaller or has a different footprint (e.g. a Trig), allowing an easier audio panel install.

I do get that panel space is limited. You're on the right track with the 430W, it's a ton of bang for the buck and the real estate. In addition to being generally awesome and well-supported by Garmin.

By the way, great idea to get your instrument rating. It's just hugely useful, it will make you a better pilot, and the old saying is doubtless true: the best upgrade to any aircraft is pilot training.

 

[rcarsey]

You either NEED the NAV or you need a WAAS capable GPS - not both; nothing more.

Your three approaches could be ILS, LOC, and VOR-A; or a LPV, LNAV, LNAV/VNAV. A lot of the confusion that you read comes from the recently changed ACS standards; the 2023 (latest) edition allows a waas-only aircraft.

If you equip with a standby AI; like a G5 standalone unit, then its fair game for the DPE to fail your screen and make you use the G5 to fly the approach. In my plane, I mounted in in the farthest possible spot from me and it was a little difficult to see.. I was leaned over him as I was flying.

 

[BobTurner]

Above my pay grade, but my guess is that you will need an audio panel of some sort to run an SL40 and a 430W simultaneously. I would be delighted to be wrong about that.

I run an SL30 and a 420W, no real audio panel. I do have an intercom, plus a single DPDT toggle switch that moves the mike and PTT lines between radios. The SL30 has a panel switch that sends the vor morse code ID down the com audio output.

 

[BobTurner]

I've resolved to start working towards my instrument rating and am looking for the most economical way to set up my RV12 (E-LSA with the appropriate operating limitations verbiage) to be both IFR legal AND appropriately equipped for a checkride. Less concerned with being equipped for actual as I doubt I'll ever intentionally take this plane into IMC.

Current panel includes:
- Single SkyView Classic display
- Garmin SL40 Com
- Dynon AP with the two panel-mounted control modules

For the checkride I anticipate needing to add the following:
- Backup AI
- NAV radio for ILS
- IFR GPS navigator

I started going down the rabbit hole of SL40 > GNC 255 (or similar NAV/COM), GPS 175, G5 (or similar backup AI) but that approach pushes the cost up pretty quickly.

Which leads me to questions for the community:
1. Are there any downsides to just going with an old GTN430W NAV/COM/GPS and removing the SL40 altogether?
2. Assuming it all fits in the panel, I assume I would be better off just adding a secondhand SkyView Classic/Touch display and removing my map box (edit: instead of going with a small backup AI like a G5). Basically plug and play integration with existing SV, more real estate, etc., for roughly the same cost of a G5. Any gotchas here?

Would love to hear from anyone who has done similar in a -12.

If you are dead serious (and I use the word ‘dead’ on purpose) about no actual IMC then the cheapest route to the rating is to swap your SL40 plus some cash for an SL30 (I think you need to swap racks too). You will have everything you legally need for the test. Note the SL30 is, imho, the best nav ever made, but they are getting old. Now, I personally would never enter IMC without a second attitude source, at a bare minimum. Plus, in today’s GA world, an approach-TSO’d gps is so useful as to be almost ‘needed’. A used 430W is a good buy. You might be able to save a few dollars with a 400W (gps only) and keep your SL40 but 400W’s are tough to find. Same for a 420W (no vor).

 

[blaplante]

Something to consider along the 430 route... if you already have a COM, and have the space, the 400W is often cheaper. That's a GPS *only*. If it dies... you are out less $. Also check out the 420W (GPS+COM), no VOR/NAV.

Also for the upgrade 'path' the IFD440 is basically a slide in new replacement. Just don't look up the price ;-)

I'm currently putting together a basic switch panel that will fit to a 2" instrument hole for a client - CAD model picture, obviously the colors are your choice.... just got some of the parts in, I can provide more pics in a few days. It will be used with an AP-60 mixer (~$100 for the mixer).

(EDIT) - this works when you have a standalone intercom, like a FlightCom, etc., the output of the mixer goes to the intercom input that the single radio used to go to.

 

[mmahony1]

If you are dead serious (and I use the word ‘dead’ on purpose) about no actual IMC then the cheapest route to the rating is to swap your SL40 plus some cash for an SL30 (I think you need to swap racks too). You will have everything you legally need for the test. Note the SL30 is, imho, the best nav ever made, but they are getting old. Now, I personally would never enter IMC without a second attitude source, at a bare minimum. Plus, in today’s GA world, an approach-TSO’d gps is so useful as to be almost ‘needed’. A used 430W is a good buy. You might be able to save a few dollars with a 400W (gps only) and keep your SL40 but 400W’s are tough to find. Same for a 420W (no vor).

Hmm it looks like an SL30 and 400W may be the best of both worlds here. I’d be about to avoid an audio panel if I went that route and an (unlikely) upgrade to a GPS175 would be possible in the future while still retaining ILS.

And I’ll almost certainly put in a backup AI. Just wanted feedback on a second used SV display vs something like a G5.

 

[j4cbo]

Do you have a separate intercom (e.g. Flightcom 403) or are you using the SL40's intercom functionality?

 

[mmahony1]

Do you have a separate intercom (e.g. Flightcom 403) or are you using the SL40's intercom functionality?

Using the flightcom 403 currently

 

[mmahony1]

@blaplante @Dugaru Any thoughts on the GNS480? Seems to hit all of the asks: WAAS GPS / NAV / COM with standby monitoring in one box. Downsides?

More generally, how do you generally handle the case where a box you bring in has redundant features you don't want to enable? I.e., the 480 has a transponder feature. Just don't wire up those pins and placard it INOP?

 

[blaplante]

@blaplante @Dugaru Any thoughts on the GNS480? Seems to hit all of the asks: WAAS GPS / NAV / COM with standby monitoring in one box. Downsides?

More generally, how do you generally handle the case where a box you bring in has redundant features you don't want to enable? I.e., the 480 has a transponder feature. Just don't wire up those pins and placard it INOP?

Funny you should ask about the 480. Just installed one for a fellow doing IFR on a budget. A downside is the 'buttonology' will be unfamiliar to any CFII. Price is right. I'm not aware of the transponder in the 480... maybe transponder control? It doesn't have a transponder antenna connection, so it can't be a transponder itself. Database updates are still available for it. It even has some sort of voice annunciations --- we don't have it wired to the audio system yet so I don't know what that does.

 

[Dugaru]

@blaplante @Dugaru Any thoughts on the GNS480? Seems to hit all of the asks: WAAS GPS / NAV / COM with standby monitoring in one box. Downsides?

More generally, how do you generally handle the case where a box you bring in has redundant features you don't want to enable? I.e., the 480 has a transponder feature. Just don't wire up those pins and placard it INOP?

Okay obviously this is heresy given my signature block and obsessive advocacy but...

...I should have thought of that option. The 480 actually has some great features that the 430W lacks. And not just standby monitoring. The 480 can decode airways, which is not essential if you have Foreflight with your 430W, but it can still be quite handy, especially if you fly IFR in the northeast US as I sometimes do. I also like the screen much better as well.

It's just a very well-designed box, really ahead of its time in most ways.

It will also work well with an SL40 because that's also a legacy Apollo gadget. If i remember correctly, a 480 will actually load frequencies to an SL40 from its database, which is a pretty slick trick for a box that old. As is control of a transponder. If you don't want to use that feature, I'd just leave it disconnected and wouldn't bother with the INOP as few people would ever think such a thing was even OP. I also suspect that if you don't configure it to operate a transponder, it won't offer you any opportunity to do so, aside from the button.

Not sure how it stacks up size-wise, but if you can eliminate the second comm, you're likely ahead of the game. And heck, the sale of a used SL40 will take a nice chunk out of a GNS 480 acquisition.

 

[mmahony1]

Ok, thanks for the input, everyone. At this point I'm leaning towards removing the SL40, adding a 480 and a second SV Classic / Touch screen. This seems to meet all the asks, the 480 seems to integrate well with SV, and it's pretty economical.

 

[blaplante]

Also the 480 COM connector is pin compatible with the SL40 COM connector. [I suspect it is basically an SL40 board inside.] I didn't cross check the pins but I'd sure expect that 15 pin com connector is same pin-out between the SL40 and SL30.

 

[BobTurner]

The 480 was the best TSO’d GPS - 30 years ago. It is still an excellent choice for a budget panel. But remember it has been an ‘orphan’ for well over 2 decades, meaning repair may be difficult or impossible. Price should reflect that.
Different topic: you didn’t mention ADSB-out. If that is in your future you’ll need to check and see if the 480 can output gps data in a format that can be read by your UAT or mode S-ES transponder. When the 480 was built that was never a consideration. Nor do I know if updated software is available to make that happen.

 

[mmahony1]

Different topic: you didn’t mention ADSB-out. If that is in your future you’ll need to check and see if the 480 can output gps data in a format that can be read by your UAT or mode S-ES transponder. When the 480 was built that was never a consideration. Nor do I know if updated software is available to make that happen.

Hi Bob, I already have ADSB-out via SkyView and a Trig TT22 remote transponder. ADSB-in via a separate Dynon module. I do see ADSB-relevant configuration instructions in the SV manual's 480 configuration instructions but I haven't really wrapped my head around what they mean. Presumably this is for using the 480 as a GPS source for ADSB?

I had assumed (maybe erroneously) that I could just continue to use the existing GPS feed for ADSB?

 

[BobTurner]

Hi Bob, I already have ADSB-out via SkyView and a Trig TT22 remote transponder. ADSB-in via a separate Dynon module. I do see ADSB-relevant configuration instructions in the SV manual's 480 configuration instructions but I haven't really wrapped my head around what they mean. Presumably this is for using the 480 as a GPS source for ADSB?

I had assumed (maybe erroneously) that I could just continue to use the existing GPS feed for ADSB?

Okay. Presuming you have the Dynon-approved gps for adsb-out, you can just keep it. It sounds like the Dynon can read and extract the needed gps data from a 480, so that would be a second option, if you wanted to sell the dynon gps (I’d keep it). BTW, the TT22 has a remote ‘ident’ line, which I run to a button on the stick, and I find it handy.

 

[mmahony1]

@Dugaru I see what you did there

 

[blaplante]

If only the 480 would display GDL90 format traffic ...

 

[Tony_T]

OP, may want to check space behind the 12 panel, the 480 is an inch longer than the SL40 and, as I recall, the SL40 was a close fit in the 12.

 

[mmahony1]

OP, may want to check space behind the 12 panel, the 480 is an inch longer than the SL40 and, as I recall, the SL40 was a close fit in the 12.

Thanks Tony, I'm tracking - definitely going to measure before buying anything

 

[bbaggerman]

OP, may want to check space behind the 12 panel, the 480 is an inch longer than the SL40 and, as I recall, the SL40 was a close fit in the 12.

The SL40 is pretty tight right now. Here is what I measured on my -12 when I took my SL40 out. If the 480 is an inch longer I don't think it will fit.

 

[DavidHarris]

A contrarian view: if you truly will never fly actual IFR in your plane, you would save a lot of money and bother by training in a rental aircraft. If you are going to upgrade the panel anyway, be thoughtful about installing obsolete units this will be difficult or impossible to repair now or soon and that will require cutting new holes in the panel or rewiring to replace when they eventually fail. It’s ok if you enjoy panel work, but getting grounded until I redo my panel is not my idea of a good time.

 

[mmahony1]

A contrarian view: if you truly will never fly actual IFR in your plane, you would save a lot of money and bother by training in a rental aircraft. If you are going to upgrade the panel anyway, be thoughtful about installing obsolete units this will be difficult or impossible to repair now or soon and that will require cutting new holes in the panel or rewiring to replace when they eventually fail. It’s ok if you enjoy panel work, but getting grounded until I redo my panel is not my idea of a good time.

Re saving money:
My thought with upgrading the panel here is that, assuming I'm doing the work and avionics are acquired cheaply enough, any money spent is essentially just going into equity in the plane. I'd rather spend the money on an upgrade than pay a flight school.

Re saving bother:
Probably true, but I think everyone here loves a project. My father is a retired A&P and we haven't had one to work through for a while.

Re obsolete units:
Yes, I think I'm backing off of the 480. They really do seem scarce and while it seems like the right combination of features in one box, I don't like the idea of introducing a white elephant. Given ILS seems to no longer be required for check rides I think I will probably focus on a 400W or spring for a GPS 175 and keep my current COM in either case. 400W motivated as much by price as getting to know the defacto GA fleet wide standard.

I don't know if I'll ever do it, but I dream of escaping my current line of work and making it to the airlines. It would be a long road, but I feel like cheap IFR hours wouldn't hurt and there's hardly a less expensive way to operate than in a -12.

 

[Amadeus]

Given ILS seems to no longer be required for check rides I think I will probably focus on a 400W or spring for a GPS 175 and keep my current COM in either case.

This is the route I took. Take out the GPS20A (for which there is a big resale market) and put in a GPS175. Center piece is only modification to the panel.

 

[mmahony1]

Here's the layout I've put together. Exact measurements are close but not yet final. I'm going to cut this as a single piece but have overlaid the base three piece panel to allow reference to the existing throttle quadrant flange, which will be retained so we don't have to disconnect the cables. The remainder of that center panel will be removed.

Any thoughts on the AP / Knob flange below the left side SV? I think it's about the only spot they would be able to fit unless I went with a 7" screen on the right, which I would prefer not to do. The bottom of this flange will have a 90 degree bend backwards and rounded corners.

The reference lines obscure the modules in the top right but they are the Flightcom 403 intercom and the ELT remote switch.

 

[bbaggerman]

I pulled out the SL-40 and standard fuse / switch panel, and replaced it with a Dynon remote radio and VP-X to liberate some more panel space for a GPS 175. As you can see from the photos I am not finished yet but it should eventually give me enough panel space for the 175 when I am ready to pull that trigger. Also, I had enough issues with the cheapo automotive fuses that I am glad they are gone. So far the VP-X has been great. Because of the modular, connectorized wiring system of the RV-12 it was actually a pretty easy mode to install the VP-X.

 

[chadrees]

Here's the layout I've put together. Exact measurements are close but not yet final. I'm going to cut this as a single piece but have overlaid the base three piece panel to allow reference to the existing throttle quadrant flange, which will be retained so we don't have to disconnect the cables. The remainder of that center panel will be removed.

Any thoughts on the AP / Knob flange below the left side SV? I think it's about the only spot they would be able to fit unless I went with a 7" screen on the right, which I would prefer not to do. The bottom of this flange will have a 90 degree bend backwards and rounded corners.

The reference lines obscure the modules in the top right but they are the Flightcom 403 intercom and the ELT remote switch.



View attachment 100760

Would love to see some updates photos if you have finished this project. Dashboard space seems like such an issues, relocating those panels below the dash seems like such a smart move.

 

[bbaggerman]

Would love to see some updates photos if you have finished this project. Dashboard space seems like such an issues, relocating those panels below the dash seems like such a smart move.

I know this wasn't directed at me but here goes anyway. I got rid of that automotive fuse panel to free up space. It was a fair amount of work but I am glad I did. The GPS 175 display is small but I mostly only use it for entering and managing flight plan information.

mmahony1's panel looks great also! My only worry is that even though there is a lot of space under the panel for extra stuff like Dynon control panels, it is pretty far outside of the pilot's field of view.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure prefer the countersunk flat head screws over the button head screws that protrude. I just think it gives it a neater finish.

 

[chadrees]

I know this wasn't directed at me but here goes anyway. I got rid of that automotive fuse panel to free up space. It was a fair amount of work but I am glad I did. The GPS 175 display is small but I mostly only use it for entering and managing flight plan information.

mmahony1's panel looks great also! My only worry is that even though there is a lot of space under the panel for extra stuff like Dynon control panels, it is pretty far outside of the pilot's field of view.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure prefer the countersunk flat head screws over the button head screws that protrude. I just think it gives it a neater finish.

That is interesting, with changing to that panel, how do you access your fuses? Are you still able to pull a fuse or replace it mid flight if need be?