This was one of my buddies that we fly with...we call ourselves the flying aardvarks..as you can tell, we dont take ourselves too seriously. Great guy, excellent pilot. Landing W10 to the south is tricky...but he had done it dozens times prior. Awaiting NTSB..but RIP buddy! Good news, though...his wife is doing much better than expected!
Great guy, excellent pilot. Landing W10 to the south is tricky...but he had done it dozens times prior.
True - I confess I have found myself a bit slow in the pattern from time to time, and I can see how this can happen, particularly when a distraction pops up....
In any case this accident resulted in a sad and apparently avoidable loss, the best we can do now is hopefully learn from it.
True - I confess I have found myself a bit slow in the pattern from time to time, and I can see how this can happen, particularly when a distraction pops up.
I have not yet gotten so slow that I got the "angle-angle-push" warning or the beeps, but slower than I wanted because I was not paying close enough attention.
This accident is another sad reminder that we need to bring our best selves to every flight.
Everybody go to 5500 or so this weekend, slow to typical approach speed, drop the flaps, cut power, roll in, and pull for an approximation of a tight base to
final. Now do it again with 5 less knots, then again with 10 less, if you can.
Why? See Richard McSpadden's column in the April AOPA Pilot. Ed Wischmeyer's E3 concept is well worth considering.
4th or 5th landing I made with my RV...I got "angle-angle-push" on a 75-knot base-to-final turn that I overshot a bit, and subsequently made too tight and too low. In 50 years, it's the first time I've ever had a stall warning on approach and it scared the **** out of me. It didn't scare me as much at the time as it did afterward when I'd had time to process the implications.
Everybody go to 5500 or so this weekend, slow to typical approach speed, drop the flaps, cut power, roll in, and pull for an approximation of a tight base to
final. Now do it again with 5 less knots, then again with 10 less, if you can.
Why? See Richard McSpadden's column in the April AOPA Pilot. Ed Wischmeyer's E3 concept is well worth considering.
I slowed the RV-8 down to pattern speed, started a left turn base-to-final, pulled up the nose a bit to tighten the turn, then stepped on left rudder. The -8 immediately shook and started to enter a spin. I didn't need any prompting to recover . Try it (at altitude of course)
AOA? Stall warning? I cannot remember the last time I flew in an airplane with one (probably the 180) but it likely would startle me when it went off, especially in the flare, as I am not used to them. Are they nice to have? I suppose, especially if that is what you are used to having. Awareness of the way your airplane flies and awareness of the attitude at all times shouldn't be replaced by devices. What if you are used to landing by hearing the stall warning or watching the AOA and it fails? How are your landings then? Not sure you can even put one in the J-3..........
I remember not so long ago in training I was taught to fly a nice rectangular pattern, and even got a compliment on my checkride for doing so w/ wind correction.
I wish we would stop teaching that habit. As soon as the training wheels were taken off I quit doing that, and ever since fly a nice easy semicircle from downwind to final, or if I have to fly a true base leg for traffic or towers a big rounded off base to final turn. I always figured if the base to final turn is a danger point, why not eliminate it. I firmly believe I know how to fly a traditional rectangular pattern safely and predictably, but in the back of my mind I know every other pilot that had an accident thought the same thing.
I can't remember the last time an airliner experienced a stall/spin accident, perhaps Colgan 3407 from 12 years ago (many more contributing factors).
I'm quite curious how one could compare statistics of different types of pilots.
-Aerobatic pilots spend their time exploiting the edge of the flight envelope. Frequently crossing into stalled flight intentionally and very controlled.
-Airline pilots spend their flight time avoiding the edges of the flight envelope as much as is possible. They even bring a second pilot with them and a whole bunch of fancy gadgets to help avoid problems such as a stall.
I can't remember the last time an airliner experienced a stall/spin accident, perhaps Colgan 3407 from 12 years ago (many more contributing factors). How often do aerobatic pilots, who are highly experienced in the stall regime, encounter inadvertent stall/spin accidents? I have no idea, and I suspect there's no way to find out.
Most pilots operate somewhere in the middle. Aren't constantly and intentionally practicing various different types of stalls. Also, aren't 2-crew airline, stick shaker/pusher/fly-by-wire envelope protection type fancy gizmos. The direction we seem to be going is adding gizmos to our planes. AoA measuring and indicating devices, visual and aural warnings for stalls and overspeed. The old school of thought, is like Roadjunkie1 where we practice stalls much more frequently. I suppose there's no reason we can't do both? Beautiful nice sunny weekend, go out and explore the envelope. If one is accustomed to stalling, it will be more familiar if...when it happens by accident. We would be more used to the signs of an impending stall, so be more aware of what's happening before losing control.
Only trouble is if there is some guy sneaking in on final you won't have a chance to see him. It always seemed prudent to me to level the wings on base and have one last good look that final was clear. There are still quite a few folks that don't believe in radios and fly around unannounced.
This type of accident is entirely avoidable. Anyone with training in upset recovery or basic aerobatics can recognize the onset of a stall and make the appropriate control inputs to regain normal flight. Absent such training the natural response to a stall is to pull back on the stick and fly deeper into the stall. Please, please, please get some training in aerobatics or stall/spin avoidance. You might even enjoy the training and one day become one of the very few RV pilots who enjoy aerobatic competition!
There was also the Korean plane that hit the sea wall in SFO. Not a stall, but if I recall the facts correctly, probably done due to unfamiliarity with and fear of the edge of the envelope and stick and rudder skills.
Tim
For a Canadian Private license, spins are demonstrated in training and stalls are a flight test item*.
For a Canadian Commercial license, spins are a flight test item*.
For what it's worth, multi-engine training in Canada used to require a full engine shutdown in flight, but that requirement changed some time after I completed my training. I was lucky enough to shut down an engine for demonstration purposes twice in a Piper Seminole and once in a King Air.
In my day job, the 6 month sim training requires approach to stall training in various scenarios. Clean, level stalls, departure stall and approach stall. Every 6 months I see the warning signs of an impending stall in various situations. Why we don't actually stall the plane (actually a sim)? I'm not sure, perhaps it's got something to do with being in a simulator.
*Disclaimer: that was as of 2008 when I got my licenses. If it's changed, please correct me
Well said, Michael.I wish this thread had another title. There is a great exchange of ideas happening here that should be read by people who may not read this as they don't want to hear about an airplane crash. We are all devastated with what happened and that we lost one of our own. And there but for the grace of our talents as pilots and our instructors we all go. How many times have we all said, Oh, woops.... and corrected in time something we were not doing correctly? This thread gives us a chance to think about what we do in the pattern (and elsewhere) that will improve our skills as pilots. It is a constructive exchange of ideas that needs to be shared to honor our lost friend. And it is what he likely would have wanted to come from this.
I remember watching the Olympics one year and wondering what they had to do with me. I certainly was never going to be at that physical level. But they were demonstrating a perfection of their skill for all of us to see. They did not come off the parallel bars and land somewhere, bouncing, if they were to podium. They would come off and land THERE and STICK IT. How can I apply that to my life? I can maybe be a little more perfect in my piloting. When I enter downwind, I have a specific speed I need to be. Downwind to base: same thing. How close am I? Is 5 knots over OK? Nope. I mean yes, but it isn't. How close to my final speed am I? Right on? That is perfection. Were do I land? Just there, somewhere on the runway? Or do I try to land THERE and STICK IT?
Perfection. Practice. Honing our skills as pilots. Not taking for granted that we know it all already. Reviewing the basics we may have forgotten. Knowing as much as you can learn about this amazing airplane that keeps you in the air. How does it feel on the edge of the "safe" envelope of our airplane? How much can one pull at a certain speed before the wing quits flying? We don't all have to be aerobats but knowing as much as we can about our airplanes, and, thus, ourselves as pilots may keep us out of situations we and our families would like us to avoid. Our ability to fly is a gift. That we fly the airplanes that we (mostly) built ourselves is a special gift. We need to honor those gifts.
For a Canadian Private license, spins are demonstrated in training and stalls are a flight test item*.
So I wonder: How does the stall-spin fatality rate in Canada compare to that in the US?
One of my instructors taught me the three rules of flying:
1. Don't go too slow.
2. Don't go too slow.
3. Don't go too slow.
I dunno. I think that advice is why I fly a bit faster on approach than most people until I'm on short final.
So I wonder: How does the stall-spin fatality rate in Canada compare to that in the US?
For a Canadian Private license, spins are demonstrated in training and stalls are a flight test item*.
For a Canadian Commercial license, spins are a flight test item*.
For what it's worth, multi-engine training in Canada used to require a full engine shutdown in flight, but that requirement changed some time after I completed my training. I was lucky enough to shut down an engine for demonstration purposes twice in a Piper Seminole and once in a King Air.
In my day job, the 6 month sim training requires approach to stall training in various scenarios. Clean, level stalls, departure stall and approach stall. Every 6 months I see the warning signs of an impending stall in various situations. Why we don't actually stall the plane (actually a sim)? I'm not sure, perhaps it's got something to do with being in a simulator.
*Disclaimer: that was as of 2008 when I got my licenses. If it's changed, please correct me