RV-15 S-LSA & E-LSA Speculation

[N8DAV8R]

Scattered throughout various interview and articles, comments about plans for the RV-15 to be an S-LSA aircraft are pretty obvious. After watching the 'Homebuilt in Review' video it seemed like it would be worth having a thread to capture some guesses and real info whenever we get some. Along with specifics on the aircraft itself, there may be some traditional RV builders that haven't been exposed to the ELSA process with some questions. I don't think there is any doubt about a factory RV-15. Some of the modifications or configurations have been explained as being important for flight schools which would mean factory built S-LSA. There was also at least 1 job listing that pointed in the direction of factory built RV-15.

The estimated schedule for kit releases lines up well enough with the one year timeline for new aircraft certification built into the new rules, fuselage in the August timeframe of next year. We should have some details on the ELSA options by then.

One curious comment from Rian about the wing kit was about the 51% rule and aileron pushrods. The rule does not apply to E-LSA kits so there are fabrication steps they can eliminate for builders. This also syncs up with the dimpling, pre built fuel tanks, and comments that this will be the easiest RV build yet. That will probably land with mixed reactions, and I wonder about a "<51%" kit impacting people with some reason to prefer EAB (not me).

It also seems that we may have some engine options for an E-LSA which would be new as compared to the RV-12. Brian has been clear about the aircraft being designed around the IO-390EXP. Rian mentioned in the video that a 180HP version would be favorable to flight schools, so it seems like we may have fully supported E-LSA options for 180-220hp.

Avionics have not been discussed much.

Maybe a few of you at Oshkosh asked questions that shed light on the SLSA/ELSA topic?

 

[Alphalpha]

EAB gives you much more flexibility once the aircraft is built and certified. E-LSA has to remain looking just like it's S-SLA sisters for its entire life.

 

[docjjrmd]

EAB gives you much more flexibility once the aircraft is built and certified. E-LSA has to remain looking just like it's S-SLA sisters for its entire life.

Nope, once built and certificate obtained ELSA may be modified. See conversation on the RV-12 list about modifications done. No question about who can inspect, LSRI, LSRM, A&P/IA all good out of the box.

 

[Brantel]

EAB gives you much more flexibility once the aircraft is built and certified. E-LSA has to remain looking just like it's S-SLA sisters for its entire life.

You can do whatever you want to a E-LSA after its paperwork is inked as long as the modifications do not violate the LSA design/performance limitations

 

[N8DAV8R]

Hey @RVbySDI maybe we pick this up over here instead of the light thread? I'm enjoying the discussion but it's about more than lights. I think this thread could eventually catch a number of similar issues as the situation develops.

I have my kit. I have been working on it for over 6 weeks now. There is absolutely no way this wing kit could meet requirements for Vans to use it as a finalized wing kit for an ESLA kit. There are way too many things that will have to change because they are not correct. To say the wing kit I received would meet ESLA requirements is a joke. A joke that is NOT funny.

Like what? What do you specifically think needs to change in the current wing design in order for it to be included in the ELSA process? It sounds like we're in the same boat with some inventory and production problems but that has nothing to do with the design. There are some problems with the KAI and it needs updating, but you need to consider that this is exactly why we are not working from hard copy plans and have been encouraged to keep checking for updates.

Again builders don't have to care about any of this ELSA stuff, but Vans is laying the groundwork right now with the kit that you have.

 

[RVbySDI]

Hey @RVbySDI maybe we pick this up over here instead of the light thread? I'm enjoying the discussion but it's about more than lights. I think this thread could eventually catch a number of similar issues as the situation develops.



Like what? What do you specifically think needs to change in the current wing design in order for it to be included in the ELSA process? It sounds like we're in the same boat with some inventory and production problems but that has nothing to do with the design. There are some problems with the KAI and it needs updating, but you need to consider that this is exactly why we are not working from hard copy plans and have been encouraged to keep checking for updates.

Again builders don't have to care about any of this ELSA stuff, but Vans is laying the groundwork right now with the kit that you have.

The overall design is not the only stumbling block Vans has to deal with in order to provide kits for an ESLA.

First, before anyone outside of Vans can build an ELSA, Vans has to produce, and have the FAA sign off, a completed FAA inspected SLSA that builders will have to replicate part for part without exception.

Second, in order for builders to build that ELSA part for part without exception, Vans will have to be able to provide ALL the correct parts for that ELSA. These current RV15 wing kits, at this point, are not being provided with ALL the correct parts, and I am NOT referring to the backordered parts.

Third, they need to produce instructions that will better explain in more detail, whether in the drawings, text directions, or both, how all the individual parts go together in the greater scheme of the overall kit so that builders are not installing parts backwards, inverted, upside down, inside out, etc. because there is limited information detailing orientation, correct parts, and such.

I fail to see how these things are not as important to Vans, or a builder, as is the overall design of the airplane. One cannot build to the exact specifications of an SLSA if the component materials and construction documents do not match those specifically called out for with the expressed purpose of matching those of the SLSA it is supposed to match.

The early adopters of these wing kits will, in all likelihood, have multiple parts installed in their wings that will not match those that will end up as parts that will be installed in an approved SLSA.

 

[N8DAV8R]

First, before anyone outside of Vans can build an ELSA, Vans has to produce, and have the FAA sign off, a completed FAA inspected SLSA that builders will have to replicate part for part without exception.

Overall, you are describing a level of perfection that is not practical, required, or reflected by what is now a long history of SLSA and ELSA development. The good news is that there are a lot of legacy builders in the same boat and this was kind of the purpose of this thread.

Van's needs to build an SLSA. The FAA does need to sign an airworthiness certificate for that SLSA. This process is nothing like a type certification where the FAA tests and approves the design of the aircraft. They take Van's word that it's designed and tested in-house and meets the ASTM standard. The currently flying engineering prototype has been explained as the 'test bed' to meet and verify the standards. The wing was the first thing finalized for that design, then the tail.

Later this year we see a final fuselage design. That fuselage will go on sale some time after the new rules for aircraft production are final. This is not a coincidence.

Second, in order for builders to build that ELSA part for part without exception, Vans will have to be able to provide ALL the correct parts for that ELSA. These current RV15 wing kits, at this point, are not being provided with ALL the correct parts, and I am NOT referring to the backordered parts.

Which part do you think is incorrect, and not replaceable?

Remember that nut-plate in the aileron that they caught and published a notice and revision? That's your model for how this works. They can issue revisions, they can send new parts. None of this is written in stone, or needs to be in order to support the SLSA.

Third, they need to produce instructions that will better explain in more detail, whether in the drawings, text directions, or both, how all the individual parts go together in the greater scheme of the overall kit so that builders are not installing parts backwards, inverted, upside down, inside out, etc. because there is limited information detailing orientation, correct parts, and such.

I would agree there is room for improvement but the instructions are quite good. In a lot of ways they are already much better than the RV-12is ELSA KAI (I prefer a few more steps on each page but that's just a preference). It sounds like we struggle with the same thing, and would benefit from seeing more of the structure at once as opposed to two or three parts going together on a page. That said, the information is there and it is well documented aside from a few errors that need to be corrected.

The RV-12is KAI has it's fair share of errors and missing information. Some have been updated over the years, others have not. Contrary to the belief of legacy builders who like to make fun of the -12 for 'building itself', there are things that builders have to figure out on their own. It's a learning process. There are forums and groups where -12 builders share the frustration of 'gotchas' just like any other RV model. Your expectation of perfection in an SLSA/ELSA is unrealistic.

The early adopters of these wing kits will, in all likelihood, have multiple parts installed in their wings that will not match those that will end up as parts that will be installed in an approved SLSA.

Which parts are you so certain will change? It seems like you know something that the rest of don't. Spill the tea.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

“ Not being provided with all the correct parts”

If the intent was to say not yet being provided with all of the correct parts, then I could agree. But I have seen zero evidence of anyone working on their wings and installing a part in a location that should not have even been supplied in the kit, let alone installed in the wrong place.

As long as anyone hoping to certify as an ELSA, builds exactly per the KAI that they were provided, their Aircraft should be fully eligible for that certification, assuming Vans completes all of the SLSA certification process prior to their Aircraft’s completion.

 

[RVbySDI]

Which parts are you so certain will change? It seems like you know something that the rest of don't. Spill the tea.

W-15011E-001, W-15011E-002

As long as anyone hoping to certify as an ELSA, builds exactly per the KAI that they were provided, their Aircraft should be fully eligible for that certification, assuming Vans completes all of the SLSA certification process prior to their Aircraft’s completion.

That part, in its current form and installed per the KAI, will need to be altered or replacement parts sent to current builders. Until that part is appropriately manufactured and sent out to builders these existing wing kits will not qualify. Sure the part can be changed. I am sure it will be addressed and remedied. However, in terms of this discussion, if those parts are permanently installed in the existing wings without changing them, those wings will not meet ESLA requirements.

 

[JoeB15]

W-15011E-001, W-15011E-002


That part, in its current form and installed per the KAI, will need to be altered or replacement parts sent to current builders. Until that part is appropriately manufactured and sent out to builders these existing wing kits will not qualify. Sure the part can be changed. I am sure it will be addressed and remedied. However, in terms of this discussion, if those parts are permanently installed in the existing wings without changing them, those wings will not meet ESLA requirements.

As someone who has that part installed on one wing that I hope get skinned next week......tell me more about what's wrong with that wing rib?!

 

[N8DAV8R]

W-15011E-001, W-15011E-002
That part, in its current form and installed per the KAI, will need to be altered or replacement parts sent to current builders. Until that part is appropriately manufactured and sent out to builders these existing wing kits will not qualify. Sure the part can be changed. I am sure it will be addressed and remedied. However, in terms of this discussion, if those parts are permanently installed in the existing wings without changing them, those wings will not meet ESLA requirements.

In a way, you picked a good example because it will highlight that your expectation of perfection is just not how ELSA works in the real world. KAI are not going to be perfect, they never have.

Most builders have figured out that this rib is just labelled incorrectly in the KAI. It takes about 20 seconds to look at the drawings, hold each of the 11E ribs in your hands and use the one with the correct flange orientation as reflected in the drawing.

Nobody needs new parts. It would be smart for Van's either change the labeling in the drawing or change the sticker that they put on the part.

 

[RVbySDI]

In a way, you picked a good example because it will highlight that your expectation of perfection is just not how ELSA works in the real world. KAI are not going to be perfect, they never have.

Most builders have figured out that this rib is just labelled incorrectly in the KAI. It takes about 20 seconds to look at the drawings, hold each of the 11E ribs in your hands and use the one with the correct flange orientation as reflected in the drawing.

Nobody needs new parts. It would be smart for Van's either change the labeling in the drawing or change the sticker that they put on the part.

Nate,
I am not interested in debate. I am pointing out an issue with that part. You asked. I answered. You build how you wish. Your prerogative. I live by my moto in my signature line below. I am not building for an ESLA. I should have never brought up my concerns about ELSA. That is my error.

JoeB15

As someone who has that part installed on one wing that I hope get skinned next week......tell me more about what's wrong with that wing rib?!

I also have it installed in my wing. I thought I was ready to skin my left wing this week too. I am not doing so until I here from Vans engineers. The drawing is correct for this part. The part delivered is not. The part has a single tab with one rivet. That is NOT what the drawings call for. It is not what will work in that position. In that position you will note there is a gap in the bottom flange of the forward spar. That gap is to accommodate the strut bracket that bolts to the spar and penetrates through the bottom skin. I received (2) W-15011E-001 and (2) W-15011E-002 ribs. They all have that tab. I am sure I can cut away that tab on the rib. That will allow clearance for the strut bracket. But, I am not going to do so until I get the all clear to do so.

To address my comments about ELSA, If I do cut that tab off, I will have a non-conforming rib in that position concerning registration as an ELSA. So, as mentioned, I am waiting to skin my wing for confirmation of my plan to cut the tab off. I am building as an EAB so my remedy for this issue does not cause me heartburn. I am just awaiting confirmation to go forward before I install the bottom skin.

Finally, I make comments about things I do know about after building multiple RVs. Many times I should just think twice before posting on topics that, if I step back a minute, I can resolve with just a few communications with Vans and other well healed builders I know. I do not need to get caught up on speculations on a Social Media site. Given that, I will continue to read everyone’s post on this one and only Social Media site I monitor but I will endeavor to refrain from interjecting into never ending debates.

Now, finally finally: LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!!

 

[N8DAV8R]

I also have it installed in my wing. I thought I was ready to skin my left wing this week too. I am not doing so until I here from Vans engineers. The drawing is correct for this part. The part delivered is not. The part has a single tab with one rivet. That is NOT what the drawings call for. It is not what will work in that position. In that position you will note there is a gap in the bottom flange of the forward spar. That gap is to accommodate the strut bracket that bolts to the spar and penetrates through the bottom skin. I received (2) W-15011E-001 and (2) W-15011E-002 ribs. They all have that tab. I am sure I can cut away that tab on the rib. That will allow clearance for the strut bracket. But, I am not going to do so until I get the all clear to do so.

Steve - Without meaning to disrespect your desire to exit the ELSA conversation, I would point out that this may a problem with what you were as an individual were provided and not with the kit parts/plans in general. I would say maybe you got some of the ribs mixed up but you say that all your ribs have that tab.

My 11E ribs to not have the tab and the appropriate clearance for the strut attach is there. Does your 11E rib match the hole shapes and location in the drawing at the aft end of the rib? If it's otherwise the same as the drawing shows and only has that tab, what you describe would not match any of the ribs I received.

 

[JoeB15]

My 11E ribs look like Nate’s also.

 

[RVbySDI]

 

[Jetmart]

View attachment 112261View attachment 112262

I would suggest that those rivets should be evaluated.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Weird. You got a unicorn. I don't have any rib with that configuration.

 

[TShort]

This is interesting to me as it suggests that there may be parts are mislabeled as delivered.

I am pretty sure I had an aileron rib with the wrong part number on it, as my inventory list was checked off correct but when I went to build the R aileron I had 2 same ribs with different part numbers on them. Sharpie, so admittedly it could be my error but I think that is very unlikely, as I was very meticulous with inventory. Also, it would be unlikely to coincidentally mislabel a rib that way.

Gonna go look at my wing ribs now.

 

[RVbySDI]

I would suggest that those rivets should be evaluated.

You are cordially invited to come evaluate them and all others. However, as much as I welcome your critique, that is not the point of me showing them on this thread.

This is interesting to me as it suggests that there may be parts are mislabeled as delivered.

I am pretty sure I had an aileron rib with the wrong part number on it, as my inventory list was checked off correct but when I went to build the R aileron I had 2 same ribs with different part numbers on them. Sharpie, so admittedly it could be my error but I think that is very unlikely, as I was very meticulous with inventory. Also, it would be unlikely to coincidentally mislabel a rib that way.

Gonna go look at my wing ribs now.

I have had another “mislabeled” part elsewhere that was delivered with the correct label from Vans but when placed where it belonged, it had the flange and rivet holes reversed. It absolutely would not fit where it was supposed to go. It turned out the part number for the right wing, which was labeled correctly for the right wing, turned out to actually be oriented for that position for the left wing.

 

[N8DAV8R]

I have had another “mislabeled” part elsewhere that was delivered with the correct label from Vans but when placed where it belonged, it had the flange and rivet holes reversed. It absolutely would not fit where it was supposed to go. It turned out the part number for the right wing, which was labeled correctly for the right wing, turned out to actually be oriented for that position for the left wing.

I think this 11E rib that you got is more than just mislabeled. At least in the sense that it's meant to go somewhere else or that you lost track. I think that rib you received is not supposed to exist at all in the RV-15 universe.

 

[RVbySDI]

I think this 11E rib that you got is more than just mislabeled. At least in the sense that it's meant to go somewhere else or that you lost track. I think that rib you received is not supposed to exist at all in the RV-15 universe.

No losing track on that rib. It was the very first rib that was attached to the very first instruction in Section 22. Since that is the section one starts with if one has pre-built fuel tanks. It (along with all the other labeled W-15011E-XXX ribs) is shown in that section 22 correctly according to the drawings. All of those labeled parts in my kit have that tab.