Well excuse me
skelrad said:
Just FYI George - read carefully before you attack and call someone a liar. Alan's not building an ES, he's building a modified, fixed gear Legacy if I remember correctly. He just offered to find out some Lancair ES numbers for us (which I'd like to hear about). The all-knowing George gets it wrong.
FYI skelrad, what are you talking about? Yea I guess I was talking 4-place RV-10 vs. Lancair ES and heard that the ES is 10-15 kts faster than what was published. Than I hear the "FG-6" is 50 kts faster than a RV-10? OK fair enough, but we are talking two place and four place and 50 hp differnce. Regardless I kind of doubt the 50 kt number. Liar is such a strong word, I prefer exaggeration or over enthusiastic estimate.
aadamson: "If you were, you'd have seen that I'm *not* building an ES, and you would have seen that I'm not 10-15kts faster, I'm about 50kts faster! My comment on 10-15kts faster that book, would also put the ES about 20-25 kts faster than an 10. I also said, I did not know for sure, but would check with those that own them to see what their performance numbers are. "
Take his 15 kts faster than (ES) book? Add 15 kts to the 225 mph I get 242 mph. That is real fast for a fixed tri-gear 4-place'er. First, I doubt Lancair's published numbers are under that much.
Than he says
I'm 50 kts faster than a RV-10. That is 224 kt or 258 mph!! I guess NOW he wants to compare the FG-6, 2-place with more HP to the RV-10. The FG-6 is Lancair Legacy FG, fixed gear with the carbon fiber option and IO-550 (310hp) engine. Got it. I was talking RV-10's vs. ES per the thread, but now it is the FG-6 vs. RV-10, OK.
A FG-6, a normally aspirated 2-place airplane with 3 gear legs sticking out is faster than Reno racers with just two gears sticking out. I can believe 243 mph. Lancair says a Legacy FG with 200 HP goes 210 mph at 8,000 ft. Doing a little math 310 hp would be worth 243 mph. 258 mph? Sounds high. Gear sticking out over 250 mph is tough. When he actually flys he will know. I guess there are none flying?
Originally I was comparing the Lancair ES 4-place with the RV-10. The "FG-6" compared to the RV-7 or RV-8 with 200 HP is a better comparison. The RV-7/8 is 10-12 mph faster than the RV-10. Now we are comparing two place planes, but the Lancair FG-6, has 110 HP more! I can tell you 310 HP in a RV-7/8 would (in theory) go 256 mph! A little over Vne so that's a no-no. However that's what a Rocket does; they do go 250 mph. So who knows may be the FG-6 will win the silver class at Reno? I don't know.
Looking at the race results from
Reno 2005 sportsman class:
Fastest Fixed gears (taildragger no nose gear):
Earl Hibler 7 Glasair II S TD 40 Baby Doll N/A 266.702 mph
John Harmon 3 HR-III 54 N/A 251.473 mph (fixed gear)
Mark Frederick 4 F-1 Rocket 84 Re-Do N/A 249.622 mph (fixed gear)
If you want to go fast, approaching the mid 200's and higher, retracts are the way to go.
Darryl Greenamyer 1 Lancair Legacy 33 N/A 364.950 mph *
John Parker 2 Thunder Mustang 88 Blue Thunder N/A 356.738 mph
Kevin Eldredge 3 NXT 42 Relentless N/A 343,126 mph
*Winner of gold class. NXT's of John Sharp (DNF) and Kevin Eldredge are new airframes.
LANCAIR'S
Lancair's are cruisers, albeit fast cruisers, they are primarily made for cross country, to fly from one super slab to another super slab airport. Nothing wrong with that, but they SUCK for acro and short field. Don't be offended that I say the Lancair SUCK's for acro. Its like a Pitts S2 or Extra 300 pilot saying RV's suck for acro. Lancairs are also over the fence at least 10 mph faster. RV's are special aircraft that, to coin a phrase, have "total performance". So lets just establish that.
Normal flying most of us can afford or want to pay for (fixed gear, less than 300 hp, no turbo or pressurization) has top speed is around 200-250 mph below 8,000 ft. Once you go near or above 250 mph you really need to suck the gear. However at $3.00/gal I am happy to fly at 195 mph, below 12,501 ft with my slow RV-7. The funny thing is the Legacy FG with 200 hp has the same listed cruise as a RV-7/8 with 200 hp.
FLYING HIGH
A turbo Cont. TSIO-550-E Horsepower 350 h.p. @ 2700 rpm fixed gear model (with pressurized cabin) is what Lancair calls their ES-P. Lancair list only speeds at altitude: 270 mph @ 17,500 ft; 293 mph @ 24000 (typical). That is great, but at 8,000 ft you will not see 270 mph, may be 234 mph at great cost in gas. We are talking a $97,000 kit, plus say $70,000 for engine and prop. I guess finish price is pushing a quarter MIL!
Now if you all think FL240 is fun without pressurization, I disagree. O2 is a pain and drys out your nasal passages. I flew an unpressurized Ted Smith (later Piper) Aerostar twin with turbocharged 350hp a side for a few years. Often, to get over weather I went into the flight levels. I hated it. That's not FUN flying to me. If FL240 impresses you, OK, but most RV pilots have a different mission. I just don't have to go that many places in my own plane or need to climb that high.
If all you're going to do is fly @ flight levels and cruise straight & level sucking O2, than NO THANKS. I do that at work. I want a fun plane that's easy to maintain (no turbo), economical and does aerobatics, short field, local flying and X-C equally well, with out needing to sell a kidney. Except for the acro, all RV's do this. The exception is the RV-9/10 which are not acro rated. Lancair's don't handle as well as RV's. Fast, yes I give them that.
I am not into BORING cruising at can't see much altitudes, its, BORING!
Conclusion
The RV-10, is best bang for the bucks 4-place, without the complications of turbo or pressurization. It fills a REAL nice spot for most pilots. A 260 hp RV-10 cruises at 201 mph (or 208 mph). The Lancair ES does a claimed 225 mph. Is an extra 17-24 mph going to make your day. Lets say you fly 6 hour cross country day. That's less than 40 minutes to cover the same distance as the Lancair ES.
As far as two place obviously the RV-7 is my choice. The Legacy FG or FG-6 of Alan's is nice but I like the metal better and much cheaper.
Mr. Lancair: "Let's just take a RV-10 all dolled up and put it next to a Lancair (of any type) all dolled up. Then invite the crowds.... Winner will be determined by which draws the larger crowd ...."
FYI, I don't have a problem with the Lancair's or Mr. Lancair, but I do have a problem with snobbishness. I think the Lancair is ugly plastic with no soul. Hey but this is my taste in dogs.
My Dog
The RV's are a totally different kind of plane, for different flying, for differnt kinds of pilots. I have no problem with anyone, but come on its VANSAIRFORCE.NET, not Lancairforce. Not to mention the Lancair is sooooo much more money. By the way the time to climb records are being set by a modified RV-4/Rocket/Exxon Tiger.
The reason guys with "other" planes come to this forum is because RV's are the most popular and active group. I like to think that's because RV's are the best overall plane and happen to also be the best value. So sue me for my opinion. If you are going to advertise how wounderful and superior your "super sky scooter 3000" is over a RV, expect the cons of your design to be discussed and don't cry. Goodbye.
Have a nice day. G