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QB quality

Paul Story

I'm New Here
Hi,

After doing some reading about QBs I am a bit concerned. What has been your experience with the workmanship of your QB? I called Vans and they assured me that the quality is top notch. Since I am fairly inexperienced I figured that a QB would be better than I could do myself. Time is also a factor, but quality is the most important to me. Please advise.

Paul Story
N639PS (reserved)
waiting for 7A QB
 
Very good.

I think the quality of mine is better than I would do myself, not because I couldn't or don't care, but because this is my first build and there is a lot of virgin territory associated with it. For me to do better, I would have to re-do many parts (it would probably end up costing as much as the QB by that time anyway!)

The other thing you learn is that there is almost nothing that can't be fixed. If you find one or two things not to your liking, quality wise, there is nothing to stop you from pulling that piece out and fixing it right (granted, that can be harder in some areas than others), other than frustration for having to re-do something you paid for.

Bigger factors for considering QB vs. SB in my mind are primer desires, float vs. capacitance senders in the tanks, some tasks that are actually harder to do on the QB (i.e. tailwheel mount), and of course time vs. cost.

Overall, I'm quite impressed with the quality of my QB. Perfection may be too much to ask, but excellence seems to have been achieved.
 
QB Quality...

I wish my work on my empennage (which I did) was as good as the QB fuse and wings I have. My work is "adequate"; the work on the QB stuff is "excellent".
 
QB quality is excellent

I think it would be hard for most (not all) first time builders to match the quality of a QB.
 
Agreed......

Rick_A said:
I think it would be hard for most (not all) first time builders to match the quality of a QB.

When we picked up our QB 6, I could not believe the workmanship......blows Cessna and Piper away, in my opinion. Incredibly well done and our skins (that we did), come close, but no cigar.

Regards,
Pierre
 
The QB quality is very good. You might find a few little glitches here and there. (I took some photos of what I'm talking about here).

None of these problems is anywhere near a show-stopper. The value for your dollar is huge.

The tradeoffs I've encountered so far are:

1. Less ability to prime the way you want to, especially on the more "closed" structures like the wings.

2. Much more difficult to run wiring conduit through the wings (if you choose to cut 3/4" holes though the ribs). Can't tell you how many times I wished those silly little holes had been CNC-cut at the factory!

3. It's harder and more time-consuming (for me, at least) to visualize, locate and understand sub-structures that I did not fabricate and/or assemble.

4. For the RV-8 at least, there is no QB builder's manual. The manual is the same one that was written for the Standard kit, and you must spend a lot of time figuring out what's been done and what hasn't. This is not necessarily a bad thing, just a consideration.)

All in all, I'd do the Quickbuild again.
 
I had a 1999 vintage QB 6A kit. The work on the stab and fin were excellent, wings and fuselage only ok. It would never be a show winner.

Move to 2005 and our QB -10 kit. 98% of the work is excellent, just a few things forgotten or not done right. Well worth the extra money if you have it and not a lot of time. Environmentally and practically, most of the priming is done for you too, a huge plus.

Figure your labor in at $5 to $10/ hr. and the QB is probably worth it if you want to be flying any time soon. You'll have enough deburring/ dimpling/ riveting to do to make you sick of it even with a QB.
 
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I'll post a little different perspective. I think probably the QB's are generally of very high quality. They are certainly better than the quality of my empennage which was a steep learning curve for me. Maybe better than my slowbuild wings too, since they were still part of that same earning curve.

That said, last summer at Oshkosh Van's brought an RV-7 quickbuild fuselage that really didn't look any better than my fuselage built from a slow-build kit. I was pleasantly surprised in that regard because I too had made mistakes in the past that, while successfully fixed, left me feeling like this plane-building thing was really tough. I'm definitely not saying I did it better, and I'm certainly no better than the average builder, but I think I've built my fuselage to quickbuild stage almost as well. I think that is a credit not to me but to Van's and his designs--that they can be built well by a reasonably inexperienced builder. Couple things I noticed on the quickbuilds:

1. Their riveting looked just just like mine--some pretty, some not so pretty, all structurally good.

2. They made some different choices than I would have. For example, one thing I didn't like was that they overlapped the side skin's conical bend over the center section bottom skin, rather than tucking it under the bottom skin which is cleaner looking and more aerodynamic. I asked one of the staffers there about it and they said that although the way they did it was different from what the plans indicate, it is easier for the quickbuilders to do it that way. Again, not a big deal, just different and less aesthetically pleasing in my opinion.

I often times hear people say that the quality of the quick builds can't be beat. Perhaps not by most builders, but I think by the time most builders get to this stage, they can probably get pretty close to matching the quality of the quickbuilds. Plus, as others have mentioned, some decisions have already been made for you which limits your opportunities if you go the quickbuild route. Also, for me, some of the most challenging of steps, and places where I have made mistakes, have come after passing the quickbuild stage. Thus, the quickbuild would not have helped me in those cases.

Bang for the buck, though, quickbuilds can't be beat. If I charged for my labor there's no way I could afford NOT to buy a quickbuild. Van's does a great job! Just go whichever way your time, money, interests, and personal satisfaction allow.
 
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RV-7ers,

Thanks for all the input. Seeing actual pics of the oops was a bit of a surprise. The QBs are supposed to be inspected, twice. I guess there is an acceptable amount of mistakes. I certainly will allow myself some. I am a perfectionist at heart but will try to let go of some of that during the build. I have the good fortune of building mine in a shop under the supervision of a 20+ RV builder.

paul
N639PS (reserved)
7AQB
 
From what I've read the 1st QB's were of average quality, while the newer stuff is excellant quality & workmanship. The workers are getting the hang of it I guess. lol
 
qb quality

My father in law and myself were in awe of the quality of the 2007 qb wings and fues. Being new to all of this...doing the tail feathers was a pile of fun, and no real mistakes. BUT, when you spend an hour or two (thats 3-4beers) looking over someone elses work, it very impressive. The rivets are beautiful the hard to get tricky stuff is done well, the rounding out of fab'd pieces is great, no scratches, no gouges. The only two issues I have are that they put several rivet and nut plates in places that had to be drilled out...they just did a run and forgot where to stop. Not a huge issue. BUT most importand to me is that VANS could so easily adjust the prints and manual to help the QB builder. So much time wasted going over steps, finding the material needed..starting to mark it...going to the fues and looking were it goes and saying DOOOOP, already done. I think they just let us waste time for fun. You want to be careful and not miss a thing...but no way of knowing until you look at everything and every plan.

Get it ordered
 
The truth is that the average QB is better quality than the average slowbuild....but the best of the slow builds are better than the best of the QBs.

I've seen a few QBs with areas of workmanship I would not personally accept...but I'm very fussy. On the other hand I've never seen anything on a QB that I considered to be unsafe. I can't honestly say that for every slow build I've seen.

In the end the QBs are of relatively consistent quality commensurate with a factory mass production environment....whereas the slowbuilds vary absolutely enormously depending on the hand skills, patience, and attitudes to quality, of the individual builder.

In reality, for a slow build to equal or exceed the quality of a QB, the bucked rivetting all needs to be done 2 up by experienced operators (that's how they do it on the QBs). And to get really high quality you need to back rivet crucial areas.

For most RV builders it is very difficult to get a partner to assist with all bucking...and getting an EXPERIENCED partner is a degree MORE difficult.

Many slow builders don't think of that when they order. Eventually many of them end up bucking rivets on their own in order to keep moving forward...that's what really results in lots of dings and questionable workmanship.

If you haven't got good access to experienced rivetting partners (or partners that you can train up and re-use)...go QB.

Personally I went slowbuild because I wanted to do a complete Boeing spec prime job. And finally, I figured that if I bingled the plane I'd have to be the one to repair it so it was best if I built it in the first place. :p
 
A review of my QB

I went QB, and I'd have to say Bob's comments are spot on. The overall quality is not superb, but pretty good. Definitely better than most slow builds but not all, and better than the average spamcan out of Wichita.

However, here are some more observations: My QB fuse & wings (received April 2005), while very well constructed overall, had at least two dozen errors and defects in various places. Nothing that would seriously compromise airworthiness, and nothing that I couldn't remedy (although sometimes quite painfully). But they were almost all the kinds of screw-ups caused not by lack of skill or slip of a tool, but rather by lack of attention to detail. I guess that's just the difference between something mass manufactured at a factory vs. something made by a scrupulous craftsman.

Having said all that, I'm an engineer and a perfectionist, and I would choose QB again in a heartbeat. Best $8K I could ever spend on this project. I must humbly say that my emp and other non-QB parts are better made than the QB. But at the pace I've been going in order to achieve that, QB probably saved me 3 years. And it would be nice to fly this thing one of these days.

So my only advice to anyone getting a QB: go through it with a flashlight and mirror, piece by piece, drawing by drawing, step by step as if you were building it. Take your time (took me over a month of evenings and weekends). Find all the screw-ups, and fix them. You'll end up with one nice airframe.

P.S. Yes, you'll have to live with that crappy primer Van's uses. I use 2-part epoxy everywhere else, and on any QB part that for one reason or another I have to remove...
 
RickWoodall said:
<snip> ... BUT most importand to me is that VANS could so easily adjust the prints and manual to help the QB builder. So much time wasted going over steps, finding the material needed..starting to mark it...going to the fues and looking were it goes and saying DOOOOP, already done. I think they just let us waste time for fun. You want to be careful and not miss a thing...but no way of knowing until you look at everything and every plan.

Get it ordered

I'm a year or so away from beginning [so who am I to ask] but I wonder if there could be a thread started here and those who experience these print & manual gliches post their discoveries. I know it won't help the one discovering but it would be a tremendous benefit to those who come after.

John
 
QB - yes!

Besides a couple of rivets that were installed that didn't need to be there, I only found a couple of very minor "mistakes" on my QB. I can honestly say that the QB work on mine is really outstanding. The way the "turtledeck" overlaps the lower fuse skins so tightly and straight is really impressive. However, I would have happily paid extra money for a 2-part epoxy primer instead of the so-called "wash primer" that came on the QB.
 
QB

If you have the funds go for the quick build. My idea was to fly not build. I went to a school to build the empenage - money well spent. Learned the techniques I needed to finish. Just finished putting the last metal piece on two weeks ago. Now have commetic plus fairings. I didn't think it would take 5 years to get this far.
 
Fuse better than wings

I think that the fuse quality of mine was quite good, however I think the skins on the wings could have been done a little better.

I have seen some slow build wings that look amazing, however my top skins don't look that great IMO.
 
QB Quality

My QB fuse and wings are very, very good quality. This IS extra money well spent. A few of the rivets have been shaved to maintain that smooth skin.
I would go QB next time (wait a minute, I can't believe I just said that :eek: )
 
Re: Fuse better than wings -- surprising

morris said:
I think that the fuse quality of mine was quite good, however I think the skins on the wings could have been done a little better.

I have seen some slow build wings that look amazing, however my top skins don't look that great IMO.

Huh. On my QB, the wings were near perfect (except for a couple of minor scratches on the spar). Almost all the problems were in the fuselage. I attributed that to the wings being mostly cookie-cutter, whereas many parts of the fuse take more finesse to fit well. But there goes that thoery. Maybe it just depends on who was working fuselages and who was working wings at the factory the day yours got built...

Anyway, I would definitely go QB again next time. (By then though there will probably be an RV-22 or something... :cool: )
 
Reassurance ?

Paul Story said:
Hi,

After doing some reading about QBs I am a bit concerned. What has been your experience with the workmanship of your QB? I called Vans and they assured me that the quality is top notch. Since I am fairly inexperienced I figured that a QB would be better than I could do myself. Time is also a factor, but quality is the most important to me. Please advise.

Paul Story
N639PS (reserved)
waiting for 7A QB

From your signature it looks as if you have already ordered your QB - if so have you ordered both the wings and fuselage as QB ?

Both is what I ordered in 2005 and they arrived with the finish kit here in Germany in Nov 2005.....

My experience (as a complete novice builder)
and situation (work full time in the UK but live and build "off duty" in Germany)
and age :eek: (just moved into next 1/2 century !) so eyesight going, back aches, memory getting - whats the word I am looking for ? etc etc
and solo builder (wife very busy with her large/dangerous 4 legged friends - son only interested in Soccer - Liverpool FC :p and LOTR)

Overall - I am very pleased with QB quality and everytime I think about it I recognise the amount of building time it has "saved" me - as others have mentioned there are some things that need to be tweaked/fixed but you should pick these up whilst going through the SB manual.
Also the QB route cuts down the number of your own mistakes/**** ups that you need to fix !

The acid test for me in my particular situation is that I would not hesitate for a second to go the QB route again -
One day I hope to fly this thing and I have no regrets with choosing QB route :D :D :D
 
David.

Yes, I already ordered my QB fuse, wings and finish kit all at once. I needed to spend all the money before I thought of a reason not to. My only concern is that I am somewhat of a perfectionist. I fully realize that I'll have to let go of most of that if I want to fly sooner than later. I will be spending quite a bit of time doing the panel. My RV6A panel took me about 160 hours and it was fairly simple (2 GRTs/EIS, 396, SL40, 327, 3000 intercom, breakers and switches).

paul story
RV-7A QB on order
N639PS (reserved
Stein Air minion
 
Got my -8 QB last September . Quality is perfect. Use Tony Partain Transporataion for shipping if you can , He is the best.
 
Considering the QB -8, do you end up with floats for fuel qty or can you install capacitors type qty system. I want to use some of the new Dynon instruments and am no sure what type of fuel qty indicators are required. Not having to build the tank and wing is appealing but I don't want to give up the toys i want in the airplane to save time.

Thanks to anyone who can address this

Cheers
Mike
 
fuel senders, I guess it's all about voltage

Mike, with the QB wings, you won't be able to install capacitive fuel senders. All is not lost though. I was just on the Dynon site and read that their system can read both float and capacitive senders. Order floats from Van's with your QB wings.
 
slooooow build this time!

I am choosing to go sloooow build this time,... for this airplane. This is truly a learning process for me. All of it! The drilling, the deburring, the priming, the riveting.... For me, I wanted to put in my time learning this entire process so that I would have a good knowledge base of what building a metal airplane is all about. And yes.. this is with the matched hole technology! Thank God for that!! The early RV builders truly have something to crow about!

That being said, the parts still need the usual mundane chore of deburring , priming, and riveting! I really enjoy the journey so far, as it is great therapy! As things go along though, I've had to sell my classic 1960 C-172 spam can for financial reasons, and in order to continue this project! So now I miss flying little airplanes a lot, and as such, am more motivated than ever to press on with this project! So I press on, as if there is a personal challenge to myself to see this thing through to it's completion!

Once this bird is done and flying, no doubt in my mind I would do a QB next time! The time involved versus the cost of the QB is a NO BRAINER!. With the tail feathers done and mid point on the wings, I've been at this for 6 1/2 years..... airline bankruptcy, pay cuts, moving several times and having to once again set up your shop, and ..oh yes...chasing my young children all over town for all the things they do! ...I'm sure many of you know this drill. But that's OK.

A perfectionist?... not able to prime the way you might have if it had been a slo-build. Not to worry.. there will be plenty of areas to practice your perfectionism! ...and after owning a 47 year old classic metal airplane with NO primer( with wickedly clean inside the wings ) , once you are up there screwing holes in the sky...well,... you won't be thinking much about primer! After all, there's always Corrosion X!
 
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We had a choice - Phillipines or Czech.

As I had a Zlin 526F at the time, we chose Czech but that was a couple of years ago.

Quality was superb, no problems, no marks, rivetting was excellent. 2 pack epoxy primer - bulletproof.

Shame they stopped using them :rolleyes:
 
Well worth the money

... but they're not perfect. I set the incidence on my QB wings/fuse today and noticed that there's a very slight twist in the wings (0.2 degrees root->tip). This is hardly anything to worry about, but still. :rolleyes:

I would do the QB again and would only consider the slow build if I managed to get a LOT more free time in my life. I haven't felt limited at all in terms of options with respect to the QB.

-Rick
 
I've noticed a couple things with my QB fuselage. First was the angle under the deck plate that you bolt the forward Horizontal Spar to. The angle is supposed to go all the way across and touch the "vertical" parts of the Longerons. Mine are about 1/8" too short on each side. That makes my edge hole distance a little too close. I called Van's and they checked with the engineers and said it was "OK".

Second problem is that the UP elevator stop was put in backwards. The top of the T shaped plate is supposed to be toward the forward fuselage just in front of the 2 vertical bars protruding from the deck plate. Mine is facing toward the aft with the top of the T behind the vertical bars.

They must've had a rookie working that day.

On a side note, how do you check for twist in the QB wings?
 
lostpilot28 said:
On a side note, how do you check for twist in the QB wings?

Simple ... when you measure the incidence just check it at the wing root as well as the tip. If everything is true they should read the same value at the root and the tip. Here's what I got with my QB wings (starboard shown but port was similar):


Longeron
longeron.png


Wing Root
wing_root.png


Wing Tip
wing_tip.png
 
I just bought a quickbuild 8 and it is perfect.

I had the very first tail kit for an 8 back when it was first released. I built the tail and the wings before selling the project. I was detail oriented (anal) in the construction, doing the multi step priming/alodyne/etc treatment.

I was worried about getting a quickbuild. Would it stand up to my scrutiny? I used to literally check every rivet with a go-no go gauge, just for context. So I actually flew down to Van's to check out my project before buying it, just to make sure it would be good enough.

It's way better than anything I had ever built myself. And you get the added benefit of having people come by and check out your project and you can point to an airplane rather than a horizontal stabilizer. :)

-Mike Angiulo
RV8QB
 
Mine's good too

hi,

Since I started this thread in April I got my QB and it looks good. No problems so far. I'd recommend one to anyone who needs to get going quickly.
 
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