Primer colored RV(?) -9A debacle at LOE

[sprucemoose]

Did anyone take the time to seek out the builder and offer help? Or did everyone just take pictures and gawk and make comments?

Quite a few of us hung around the thing for a while, waiting for the pilot to show up. I suspect (but cannot prove) that at least part of the time he was lingering nearby but not making himself known. When the impromptu formation demo started flying, most of the crowd wandered out to the flightline to watch. It was during this time that the pilot returned to the airplane, fired up and taxied out (when no one was around to see him.) I also suspect but cannot prove that this was intentional on his part, based on the reaction of the crowd.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I had every intention of having some words with the pilot.

 

[Danny7]

What is LOE?

lots of experimentals

http://www.landofenchantmentflyin.com/

i'm not really positive but i think it used to be in NM and thats how it got the land of enchantment name

welcome to the VAF forums

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

Like someone said before;
It's a testament to the strong and faithful design from VANS.
Some of you are rather alarming with your self righteousness. I frankly don't think the FAA should have as much authority in aviation as they currently have given themselves.
I'm much more in tune with the folks that would offer help. Yet none of you even bothered to leave a note on the plane!!!
That makes all of you Monday Quarterbacks.
Someone built that plane, and if they had availed themselves of help, it would have been better. It's possible that it might be salvagable yet, with some care. Ugly is not always dangerous, I know, I have a Cessna! They have plenty of warts even when new.
The guy may be a jerk and un-helpable, or maybe he just needs some guidance. Any one of you could have left a note and maybe saved a life.
Now maybe you should quit harping and think about your own motivations in this issue.
(Look how good I build, and how bad he builds!!!)
Fer Crying out loud, Some Guy Built this Airplane. Very few people can do that, so don't be the mean 12 year olds that won't talk to the 5 year old that doesn't quite get it yet. Be grown up and help.

 

[gbrasch]

I wasn't there but offer this to the owner if you are reading this thread, make a post or a PM, no need for your name, I am sure there are RV folks nearby that would offer to help......

 

[Danny7]

I love the comments from those who didn't attend and are attempting to defend this guy.

This pile of garbage was was far from airworthy and undocumented too. It should have been grounded even if it required chaining it to a F150.

FWIW, it departed NE out of KOJA.

Phil

don't think i was trying to defend the guy. If i had been there I would always felt i bore some responsibility if the plane crashed and hurt someone and i could have done something about it at some point. Sometimes life throws awkward situations at you and it takes some nerve and conscious decision making to find a path that respects the person flying and everyone else that is being endangered. I wish everyman as much freedom as they can stand, but i hope if i have the chance i could prevent someone from hurting others and infringing on their freedom.

this is my third attempt at a response, i didn't like how hte first one was maybe not in the spirit of the forums

 

[Flying Scotsman]

I wasn't there but offer this to the owner if you are reading this thread, make a post or a PM, no need for your name, I am sure there are RV folks nearby that would offer to help......

If he's reading this thread in this forum, based on some of the comments, I'd say it's highly unlikely he'd ask anyone here for help...unfortunately.

 

[az_gila]

The question might be...

...Some of you are rather alarming with your self righteousness. I frankly don't think the FAA should have as much authority in aviation as they currently have given themselves.
....

...did this plane ever see a FAA Inspector or a DAR?

With no N number the pilot may have just skipped all of bother of Phase I testing....

The usual idea if that your handiwork gets looked at at least once before flying, and your first 25/40 hours are at places where you will do the least damage to others.

I really wonder if this guy did any paper work at all...

What DAR would sign off with no ID plate or N numbers?

 

[roee]

Did anyone take the time to seek out the builder and offer help?

Admittedly I wasn't there, but seems to me the notion of "offering help" to this individual is a bit naive, don't you think? The physical condition of his airplane as described in this thread (again, I wasn't there to see it first hand), and the fact that he actually flew it in that condition, does not indicate lack of skill or anything like that. It shows reckless disregard, to the extreme, both as a builder and as a pilot. What help could you possibly offer him? Maybe a trailer tow to the nearest aluminum scrap yard followed by a visit to the sheriff's department? Somehow I doubt he'd accept that offer...

 

[Danny7]

hard to tell exactly what kind of response you might have gotten, but at the proper time the wetherford police station is 4 miles down the freeway, and if there was a chance anyone was there the investigaton bureau is nearly on the airport itself on lera dr. The Police could have taken down some personal info pdq i think almost anytime they get called leo does that at minimum

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Admittedly I wasn't there, but seems to me the notion of "offering help" to this individual is a bit naive, don't you think? The physical condition of his airplane as described in this thread (again, I wasn't there to see it first hand), and the fact that he actually flew it in that condition, does not indicate lack of skill or anything like that. It shows reckless disregard, to the extreme, both as a builder and as a pilot. What help could you possibly offer him? Maybe a trailer tow to the nearest aluminum scrap yard followed by a visit to the sheriff's department? Somehow I doubt he'd accept that offer...

We'll never know, will we?

 

[roee]

We'll never know, will we?

Unfortunately no, we'll never know.

But my point wasn't to second guess those who were actually there. My point was that given the opportunity, I think a more realistic objective would be to persuade him to remain on the ground (by what means I'm not sure), not to offer him "builder's assistance". I think we can all see that this particular situation is quite far beyond that.

 

[Bob_pipedream]

Kind of reminds me of the Chinese tool syndrome - put in almost the same amount of effort as it would take to make something properly, but scrimp on the obvious easy bits so that it will break just to save a few pence...

 

[videobobk]

There are non-destructive ways to ground an airplane, at least temporarily. A chain around the prop requires either some time with a hacksaw or removing the prop. I don't know if the airport had one or not, but some do. I knew an A&P who did this until the bill was paid, "To keep someone from stealing it." In a case like this, I think I would risk at least letting the air out of the nose tire and calling the police if I could not find and talk to the owner. Do you really think the owner would call the authorities? I doubt it.

Bob Kelly

 

[terrykohler]

Talk to this Guy?

Judging from the stains on the outside, I'd suspect that this wasn't the first, or second, or third time this plane had been in the air. From all the first-hand comments re. workmanship, it kind of makes you wonder what's "under the hood". The local DAR here has seen tube and fabric construction so bad that the welds were nothing more than splatter. On another inspection, the composite fuel tank was held on (to hardware store aluminum angle braces) with zip ties, and the builder had used bread ties in place of safety wire. Airworthiness certs were not issued.
Yup, Vans has a great design and the kits are "nearly" bulletproof, but this is a great reminder that they really can be screwed up. What's left is NOT an aircraft. It's a 155kt, 1750 pound bomb, capable of carrying 200+ pounds of highly explosive material. But come on now. You can't consider yourself a real pilot if you're willing to turn in a fellow aviator and builder.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP

 

[Auburntsts]

Well,
I think we have every right to be indignant and self rightous, although not to the point of phyiscally damaging his aircraft. Why? Because like it or not when he's out and about he's representing all of us to the public. That kind of publicity we can do without. Based upon the condition of his aircraft, blatant disregard for regulations and procedures, and said departure from LOE I question his judgement and decision making ability--basically he's a menace to our community. E-AB's, and RV's in particular, get singled out by the rest of GA as the root of all evil. Don't believe me, go hang out on the Red Board (aka the AOPA Forums) and you'll see what I mean. We need to be good stewards of aviation and this guy is doing us absolutely no favors what so ever.

 

[Brantel]

What amazes me more than the condition of this plane is the fact that there were at least 115 RV pilots there and nobody managed to see this guy up close....

I know sometimes it is hard to know who the owner of an airplane is...stand around your own airplane a while at a flyin and you will hear tons of comments from people that don't know you are the owner/builder (both good and bad). Maybe this guy was overhearing some of the comments and decided he better get the heck out of Dodge when the coast was clear.

Some friends of mine stated that they saw a similar aircraft (maybe the same one??) at Sun N Fun a couple years ago.

Hope this guy gets some help...lots of help! If he truly is this uneducated about the condition of his bird, I sure hope he seeks out some help as I would hate to hear of him killing himself or an unsuspecting passenger.

 

[Jamie]

But come on now. You can't consider yourself a real pilot if you're willing to turn in a fellow aviator and builder.

Sorry Terry, this guy is not a fellow aviator and builder. We should distance ourselves from people like this, not shield and protect them. Simply put, he makes us all look bad and he endangers my ability to do what I am passionate about. That makes it my business and the business of every other RVer out there.

 

[Bill Wightman]

The VAF community is known - if for no other reason - as a community ready willing and able to help on anything related to building and flying RV airplanes. I've never ever seen a single member here withhold their advise or even their time when it came to helping another builder. Mr Vangrunsven will be among the first to tell you how great the builder community is.

The guy who built this thing undoubtedly had all the resources he needed to get it at least close to right, but he did not. He surely had to know there's a need to register the airplane and apply markings; a need to follow the plans; a need to keep air in the tires; a requirement for a current medical - and the list goes on.

What we have here is an idiot who could care less about his airplane, himself, his passengers, and those who live beneath his flight path. Yeah, he needs help but he also needs to be prosecuted. Freedom isn't free. Sometimes it has to be protected.

 

[airguy]

Sorry Terry, this guy is not a fellow aviator and builder. We should distance ourselves from people like this, not shield and protect them. Simply put, he makes us all look bad and he endangers my ability to do what I am passionate about. That makes it my business and the business of every other RVer out there.

Agreed. We are putting forth the time, effort, and expense to do it right, and people like this are threatening our very ability to continue to build experimentals. I wasn't there, I didn't see the airplane - but I still claim my right to say someone else is wrong when it is blatantly obvious that they are wrong. I have asked for help on many occasions, and I've given it when asked. There is no excuse for what I saw in the pictures posted.

 

[RV7Aflyer]

You missed the point

Sorry Terry, this guy is not a fellow aviator and builder. We should distance ourselves from people like this, not shield and protect them. Simply put, he makes us all look bad and he endangers my ability to do what I am passionate about. That makes it my business and the business of every other RVer out there.

Terry is saying that anyone who observed the subject aircraft should have the kahunas to confront the owner.

Dave Pohl
RV7-A

 

[apkp777]

Reminds me how much I appreciate Tech Counselors. Unfortunately, I was late into my build getting involved with EAA and VAF. Once I realized how important they are I used them (and still do).

Certainly from the photos the plane looks to be in ruff shape, I am sure there is more hidden than what is revealed, but most things can be fixed. I bet if the fellow fessed up, that he "got himself in over his head" and building was beyond his technical abilities, he could get some help and salvage the project.

I know how easy it is to make mistakes, justify rather than rectify them and continue and then get to a point where you have to go back and rework. On the other hand, maybe he has a death wish and has his mind made up that the plane is airworthy and doesn't want to be confused by any facts. In which case, I hope he lives in the desert.

 

[Rick6a]

Are you guys talking about this "exceptional" example of RV-6A craftsmanship I happened to spot at AirVenture some 5 or 6 years ago? The picture does not begin to showcase how poorly it *appeared* to be constructed. Parked among so many beautiful RV's, I thought the guy was making a statement. Smeared grease? C'mon. Documents I read through its closed canopy suggested it was from the San Francisco area.

 

[vic syracuse]

Please don't do that...

OK, all comments aside, the most frightening thing I read in ALL of these posts is that someone actually turned an aileron push tube due to the lock nut not being tight or missing. PLEASE, if you ever do that again to ANY airplane, regardless of what you think about the airplane, you need to find a way to inform the pilot/owner before it flies again. That pushrod could have been on its last thread and could have then completely backed out once airborne, leading to potentially fatal results. And the reality, is that it could happen to any of us. If it were mine, I would certainly hope that you would move heaven and earth to find me while I was still on the ground. Or at least write a note and stick it to the airplane in a very visible spot.
Please don't take this personally, but do stop and think about anything that you touch on any one else's airplane and the potential consequences.

Respectfully,

Vic

 

[Auburntsts]

OMG! I almost threw-up on the screen just now. Boy, that's bad. The only good thing about that pic is it makes me feel real good about my project, warts and all, and it's no award winner for sure.

 

[hydroguy2]

Maybe he heard... "building a tractor, not a spaceship" and quit listen after that.

or possibly was a car guy who preferred the "rat rod" look.

 

[1Oldguy]

Self Rightous

Let's all back up and read what "Ship Chief" had to say. The man was right on the mark. In this day of more lawers than ambulances I could not believe what Delta Romeo posted "I spun the aileron pushrod" paraphrased but let some lawer get a hold of that statement if the airplane in question had an accident after leaving LOE. Lots of rocks being thrown here by folks that show a real lack of a good aviation background. "Cowling held on by screws", "oil door location", "cowling over lapping firewall", come on folks. The builder of this plane was like a chicken in the barn yard with a sore on it's head, won't be long till all the chickens have pick it to death. I don't blame the guy for trying to seek out when he had a chance.
Lot's of teeth nashing about this plane making our community look bad if it was involved in an accident. Get real, have you not seen the 6:00 news ever! This airplane in question or the most pristine RV on the ramp at LOE has an accident going home and the news report headline would all be the same "EXPERIMENTAL AIRPLANE CRASHES,ect,ect..."
Yes it's to bad the gentlement that built this airplane did not build it up to the high standards most RV are done in but he finished it himself, most likely by himself and that says a lot about the person. Did he need some direction in the process,yes. Can the aircraft be saved and made better, yes. The question is who will step up and help this fellow RVer if he would be open to the help. As far as the paperwork part of his problems go he needs our guidence there also, not thrown to the "fed" wolves right off the bat. I could not believe the number of posts here from people that their first thought was call the "feds" on this guy. What has our society come to? That should be your last thought not your first way to solve a problem.
Be proud you have a super slick RV setting on the ramp but don't be "SELF RIGHTOUS" about it. Am I defending this guy? Yes I am, do I like his workmanship,nope but that can be made better.......

 

[Jaypratt]

owner?

This primered aircraft in ? was near 'Borrowed Horse'. I did not give it much more than a glance. Only when it was leaving did I here "did you see that one?" No, I missed an up close look.

 

[scard]

Are you guys talking about this "exceptional" example of RV-6A craftsmanship I happened to spot at AirVenture some 5 or 6 years ago? The picture does not begin to showcase how poorly it appeared to be constructed. Parked among so many beautiful RV's, I thought the guy was making some sort of statement. Documents that I could read through its closed canopy suggested it was from the San Francisco area.

Rick, no, that isn't the one in question here.

 

[Auburntsts]

Yes it's to bad the gentlement that built this airplane did not build it up to the high standards most RV are done in but he finished it himself, most likely by himself and that says a lot about the person.

Yeah? And what does his flying into an airshow without registration, and most likely without an airworthiness cert, say to you? It speaks volumes to me -- all negative. I have no sympanthy for this guy.

However, you are right that he doesn't need to be confronted. He needs an intervention. It would be great if we could find him, identify the nearest EAA Chapter and have those folks corral him and his plane and fix it right without malice or blame. I'll say right now if this guy is in the local DC area, I'll put my own project on hold and help him until we get get it right. It's in all of our best interests to help him if we can.

 

[diamond]

Based on the overwhelming concern expressed here for the reputation of RVs, experimentals, and the lives of his passengers, I'm sure the guy spent a good 10 minutes pulling all the sticky notes off his canopy before departure.

 

[hecilopter]

How else?

As far as the paperwork part of his problems go he needs our guidence there also, not thrown to the "fed" wolves right off the bat. I could not believe the number of posts here from people that their first thought was call the "feds" on this guy. What has our society come to? That should be your last thought not your first way to solve a problem.

How else could you get the aircraft grounded? This thing was a total safety hazard.

If you saw a car driving behind you with no registration, no inspection, driving on flat tires and saw him speeding and running red lights (breaking the law) would you not call the police?

There is no way this guy had insurance, he had no N number or data plate!

If he injures himself/someone on the ground, could it not have been prevented by grounding the plane until it was made into an airworthy (and legal) condition?

He is certainly doing the RV community nor himself any favors by flying this airplane in its current state. I just hope no one gets hurt before someone stops him.

And I do believe if someone had actually seen the guy get into his plane, they would have said something. It is amazing how he managed to escape while everyone's attention was diverted.

 

[WenEng]

I wasn't sure who irritated me more on this thread....

It started with reading DR spinning a control rod that had a loose jam nut. Jeesus. Don't you ever do that again... It was probably that old curiosity thing, I would leave a note on the plane about the safety issue. I might even consider tightening up that jam nut and then leaving a note. Now, I would bet DR put the control rod back in the position he found it after turning it. I'm not being hard on DR. I can't stop shaking my head in disbelief just reading the descriptions here and seeing the matronics pix.

Then there are the name callers who seem to try to be the best name caller out there. Impress me with your best adjective describing this aircraft.

Finally, I decided I was most irritated at the PIC who flew in there in an aircraft in such visibly poor condition. I cannot stop shaking my head in disbelief and yet the aircraft flies. It looks to me like the aircraft was plenty used and perhaps on a dirt strip no less and I decided it doesn't have an N number because it cannot possibly get one and the PIC knows it. The pilot (builder?) needed to be approached by fellow pilots. Much like what is happening right here right now. How many would take the responsibility to do that? Apparently, none. For the 1st time in my building career on this site I am disappointed in any builder visiting LOE that avoided approaching the guy or leaving a note on the aircraft with a phone number, etc. And, save me all the reasons that will undoubtedly show up.

 

[Phil]

It is amazing how he managed to escape while everyone's attention was diverted.

Yeah, it has to do mainly with where he was parked. It was away from primary parking area and away from the FBO and Food tents. These are the areas where all the activity was focused.

Between the OU/Texas game being on inside the FBO, it being lunch time and several folks eating at the picnic tables beside the food tents, and the formation fly overs - everyone had reasons to direct their attention elsewhere. Plus the FBO shielded the Food/FBO/Game folks from being able to see the airplane parked on the other side of the building.

The pilot fired up and got out there ASAP. I heard him start the engines and I turned to look back that direction. He started to taxi within 5 seconds after the start up. It happened pretty quickly and I'm pretty sure it was by design to get out of there.

I heard of one DAR who said that he's never seen anything like that in 25 years of signing off projects into airplanes.

Phil

 

[DeltaRomeo]

Lets lock this thang down...

I think we got the jist of this thing fleshed out. Crappy construction, safety infractions, shoulda wouldas.

I'm going to go ahead and lock this particular thread down so it doesn't degenerate down into (more of a ) never-ending loop. Plenty of feds read this board - they're alerted to that plane.

br,
dr