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Pilot Examiner Question

edclee

edclee

Well Known Member
Patron
I am a CFI and a question has come up I need help with. I have a student pilot working on the private pilot certificate. He is pretty far alone, ready to solo but has not had, until just now, a student pilot certificate. He does have the TSA signoff certifying citizenship and has a medical.

A local pilot examiner says the student cannot log the dual instruction time prior to having a student pilot certificate. My position is that the time is log-able but that he must have the student pilot cert PRIOR to solo. What say you? If I complete this students training and
 
You are obviously correct. Are you sure there isn't something else going on here? I cant imagine a DPE being wrong on such a basic level. Kinda like if a math teacher didn't understand how addition works...
 
I have no idea what the regs say but I have always been under the impression that anytime logged with a CFI can be logged as dual.
The CFI is the one that makes the flight legal in everyway. As long as at time of solo the student is legal, I would think they're good to go.
Make sense to me... (oh there is the operative word... sense :) ).
 
I would politely ask the DPE for a FAR citation backing up his position, for your education and clarification.
 
If he is right and I am wrong, I have been doing it wrong for 40 years and never had a student fail yet. Although this is my first primary student since that wonderful IACRA system came out.
 
I agree the DPE is wrong, you can log as much dual instruction as you want without a student pilot certificate.
 
Your question seems off-topic for these forums, but I’ll chime in. What you are doing might be relevant to these forums…

Any chance this was a mis-communication? A student pilot can’t log PIC except when they are solo (nobody else in the airplane, not even their CFI, and no passengers either of course). So when you’re giving your student dual instruction, the PIC column in their logbook stays blank, even if they were the sole manipulator of the controls the entire time. Once they’ve passed their checkride and have a pilot certificate, then dual received after that is also PIC time for them. And of course all their solo flights are also PIC time, even as a student pilot.

Here’s some other guidance related to student pilot certificates (including the answer to your question, straight from the FAA): https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/student_cert

Are you providing instruction in your RV? If so, do you have FAA authorization (needed because RVs are experimental)? If your student owns or otherwise provides the airplane for their training — experimental or not — no problem.
 
smiller said:
Your question seems off-topic for these forums, but I’ll chime in. What you are doing might be relevant to these forums…

Any chance this was a mis-communication? A student pilot can’t log PIC except when they are solo (nobody else in the airplane, not even their CFI, and no passengers either of course). So when you’re giving your student dual instruction, the PIC column in their logbook stays blank, even if they were the sole manipulator of the controls the entire time. Once they’ve passed their checkride and have a pilot certificate, then dual received after that is also PIC time for them. And of course all their solo flights are also PIC time, even as a student pilot.

Here’s some other guidance related to student pilot certificates (including the answer to your question, straight from the FAA): https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/student_cert

Are you providing instruction in your RV? If so, do you have FAA authorization (needed because RVs are experimental)? If your student owns or otherwise provides the airplane for their training — experimental or not — no problem.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, experimental, RV-6A so not off topic. It could be the DPE did not grasp my meaning when explaining it all but he seemed pretty clear what he was saying. He even equated logging dual to a student without a Student Pilot Certificate to a demo ride or a Young Eagles flight. Either is log-able if given by a flight instructor and the rider has logbook and wants you to log it and meets the age requirement for student pilot.
 
I presume that RV is owned by the student, or he is using it for free, with the owner receiving no compensation. Perhaps the DPE is confused over the recent (now resolved) snafu in the fars which required a waiver (‘LODA’) for such instruction?
As an aside, I have seen DPEs perfectly willing to make up their own rules. I once sent a commercial applicant to a DPE who insisted that every single relevant sub-part of part 61 be written down, with a cfi signature saying this had been covered. I flat out refused, but my student transcribed those sub parts onto two pieces of paper, and I signed them - about 20 signatures in all.
BTW, saying a private pilot receiving dual may log it all as PIC time is not correct; only that time when he is the sole manipulator of the controls counts. So if the cfi spends 5 minutes demonstrating maneuvers, those 5 minutes don’t count toward the trainees PIC time. Now, I know of no one that actually makes that distinction.
edclee said:
Yes, experimental, RV-6A so not off topic. It could be the DPE did not grasp my meaning when explaining it all but he seemed pretty clear what he was saying. He even equated logging dual to a student without a Student Pilot Certificate to a demo ride or a Young Eagles flight. Either is log-able if given by a flight instructor and the rider has logbook and wants you to log it and meets the age requirement for student pilot
Click to expand...
 
BobTurner said:
I presume that RV is owned by the student, or he is using it for free, with the owner receiving no compensation. Perhaps the DPE is confused over the recent (now resolved) snafu in the fars which required a waiver (‘LODA’) for such instruction?
As an aside, I have seen DPEs perfectly willing to make up their own rules. I once sent a commercial applicant to a DPE who insisted that every single relevant sub-part of part 61 be written down, with a cfi signature saying this had been covered. I flat out refused, but my student transcribed those sub parts onto two pieces of paper, and I signed them - about 20 signatures in all.
BTW, saying a private pilot receiving dual may log it all as PIC time is not correct; only that time when he is the sole manipulator of the controls counts. So if the cfi spends 5 minutes demonstrating maneuvers, those 5 minutes don’t count toward the trainees PIC time. Now, I know of no one that actually makes that distinction.
Click to expand...
Yes student owns the aircraft, so all legal
Ed
 
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