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Parachutes in a -4

Flyguytki

Flyguytki

Well Known Member
So as we get closer and closer to getting our -4 we have brought up the subject of having parachutes. I have a good feeling we are going to be getting not only for the little bit of acro we will be doing but just as a back up just incase. So my question is what are you guys wearing? how well do they fit in the aircraft? and any particular model you would recomend? Also what are you feelings on our decision of wearing them, Good or Bad?
Thanks
david
 
Search my friend

go to search and type in chute or parachute. Lots of advice up in the data base already. I had a RV-4 and wore a back-pack which is the standard for RV's. I had a Para-phernalia Mini shell with a military canopy. The only reason I went with the used military canopy and new shell because the rig was cheap. No advantage to military canopy, but they are rated at higher opening speed, which is kind of important in military planes going real fast. So P-51 or F-86 driver usually go with the mil canopy. Still most "pilot safety chutes" can open fast, say 200 mph I guess. Sport skydivers are only going about 125 mph at terminal velocity.

I recommend this guy:

http://www.pia.com/silver/ShopInfo.htm

There is lots of cool info for aerobatic, glider and sport pilot chute uses on the site.

(edit, had wrong link, old one was fine but intended this one)
 
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Parachute practice

Hi,

I usually lurk here but I feel compelled to post on this subject. I am an avid skydiver with instructional ratings. I highly sujest that you go to your local DZ and perform a jump or two to get used to freefall and recieve some instruction on how to use your system. I know many of you will stay with the aircraft but if you ever need to bail out there are a few things that you should know before jumping.

1. Parachutes do require some altitude to open.

2. Parachutes may not be rated for extremely highspeed openings.

3. It is generaly a good idea to get training on how to land a parachute properly. If you do bail out and survive you still have to contend with landing the parachute, and breaking yourself after the bail out would be pretty lame if you ask me.

4. What is you land in water?


Please take the time to go to your local United States Parachute Association affiliated Drop Zone and get a little training in PLF's (Parachute Landing Falls) and how to operate your system. Please think of this as an annual training requirement. It is also a good way to learn about parachute operations in the airspace and how to aviod a potential close call or run in with people in free fall. In that situation nobody wins. :(

If you have questions please let me know and I can try my best to answer them or get you in contact with some one who can. I am not a parachute dealer or business so I will just offer generic advice. Have a nice day!

Grant
 
Absolutely

Grant,
This makes sense in so many ways. I simply can not imagine having the presence of mind to effectively teach myself sky diving moments after having thrown away a now-broken $40K and multi-thousand hour labor investment, which probably beat me up getting out of, and now I'm falling at 120 mph!!!! I've seen videos of people on their first dive too sensory-overloaded to pull the ripchord!
I plan to make a few dives before I fly my -4 for the first time! Thanks for your input.
 
Thanks for the kind words

Thanks for the kind words. I know that egressing the aircraft is yalls last thought but we wouldn't need parachutes if unfortunate incidents didn't happen. I also know that total aircraft failure is not something that you have to worry about to much in these well crafted machines, but sometimes bailing out over inhospitable terrain might be a better option in a forced landing situation. I hope to god that it never happens to any of you, but if it did learning to pull or land in the moment may not be the best time...

Almost all DZ's use square parachutes today, and there is a bail out system that uses a square, but don't let that be a reason not to go and learn. Big squares can exhibit some of the same characteristics as a round do IE they don't cover a huge amount of ground and are subject to winds. Also if you pull on the left toggle it will turn left and pull on the right it will turn right. Parachute Landing Falls (PLF's) are the same under a square or a round.

When choosing a parachute it seems like some pilots want to choose a container that takes up a minimal amount of space. This has a consequence of getting a smaller canopy. If I were to choose I would buy a canopy that is at least 28'. A bigger canopy can provide a slower descent rate and slower landing. This is probably not a big deal if you are bailing out near sea level over a farmers field, but if you are over mountains in rough terrain then it makes a difference. Emergency procedures are usually not taught for ideal situations :D .

I like this forum because the people here are really nice and there is a real dissemination of information instead of argument that you get on a lot of other thread boards. If yall have any questions please let me know and I will do my best to help out.

Grant
 
Strong Parachutes

STRONG PARACHUTE specifically makes a parachute for -4s and it is a seatpack that fits in the space behind the spar, ideal for us taller guys that can't afford to lose any more leg room buy losing space using a back pack!

Good luck!
 
square bail out system

Square Bail Out Rig

Above is the link to the square bail out rig that I was talking about. Rigging innovations makes good harness and containers. I personally do not like the canopy that they use in that system as it is made by Precision Aerodynamics. Precision has been around for a long time and makes many canopies but their reserves have had some issues in the past. I personally jump Performance Designs reserves. I have landed PD reserves and Precision reserves on actual uses but I like the way PD's open, fly, and land. I have used my reserve probably more than you guys would. :D

When I worked at the AF academy as a parachute instructor we had the bail out rigs mentioned above for the glider program. We had a cadet actually use one when a glider wing folded up on him in flight (downwind in the pattern). He bailed out and landed just fine in a center median of the road by the stadium. He had been through the jump program though and new how to fly squares. So you can see the system works but in yalls case I would reccomend a big round canopy.

A lot of skydivers are very vain about their gear (me included) and want the smallest container available. This is getting to be appearant in the industry as some canopy manufacturers are utilizing lower bulk fabrics in their designs. This is just coming out and I don't know if they are incorporating this with round canopies.

Grant
 
Strong makes good harnesses and has been in the industry for awhile. Ted Strong does have some unconventional designs but they do work well.
 
Chute Maintenance

What are the maintenance considerations for chutes? Storage conditions and re-packs? What about selecting for pattern versus cruise altitude?
 
Until recently, a 120 repack cycle was mandated. I believe this has now been extended to 180 days. Seems they found less wear by not messing with it vs opening, inspecting, repacking.

Best to store in an air conditioned space, and keep it dry. Treat it like you would any other piece of equipment that your life depends on!

I'm not too familiar with the emergency rigs, but I imagine the bailout rigs are designed to open the fastest...a couple hundred feet. Bigger problem is probably the pilots reaction time to get out, find the handle and pull. Me personally, I really think I'd want a square parachute, and be able to choose my landing area, but the 28' rounds probably open faster.

But, that is my opinion based on lots of experience with square parachutes.
 
120 day repack

By law a parachute must be inspected and repacked every 120 days. There is a request for comment from the FAA to extend that to 180 day repack cycle. It would be good to follow those recomendations as a lot of parachutes use rubberbands to stow the lines. Also fuel or oil can degrade the canopy material causing a malfunction if used. On the other hand parachutes do not turn into sand if they go beyond the 120 day cycle, but if you get ramped then you could be hosed. Please do not forge the riggers signature either as you are putting his or her rating on the line if anything happens to you. I know it is just another expense of the hobby, but get your parachutes repacked. There have been many times when riggers find tools left in a pack job from other riggers. Sometimes it has resulted in needless deaths.

As far as choosing a parachute for pattern work or altitude cruise goes, you can get one parachute that will suffice for both. According to the TSO a parachute is required to open in so many feet so it really depends on when you deploy and your airspeed as to how fast it will open or how low you will be to the ground.

There are different TSO ratings to be aware of too. Some parachutes are rated under the C tso and others are rated under the D TSO. The D tso is more stingent so if I had my choice I would choose a D TSO rated reserve (my skydiving reserve is D TSO rated).

Storage conditions for your parachute will determine how long it will last you. If you leave it in your plane and park it out side where the sun beats down on it all day long, your parachute may become un-airworthy in a short amount of time (a year or so). Remember these things are made of nylon and are susceptable to UV damage. It is said that 15 minutes in the sun is eaqual to the same wear and tear as one jump for a canopy. I live in Colorado and am very hesitant to leave my canopy unpacked in the sun for more than a few minutes.

Dust and dirt are not good things for a parachute system either. Small rocks can get lodged in the cable housing that contains your ripcord. This could potentially cause a no pull situation if it needed to be used. Another reason to follow the repack cycle. Also dust and dirt in the webbing can cause damage to the harnes over time. In webbing the dirt gets into the weave and the movement of the weave causes th edirt particles to start tearing up the webbing from the inside. This is what destroys many parachute lines on skydiving canopies. Animals can be fairly destructive to parachutes too. I think that it is geneticaly predetermined that dogs and cats want to pee on parachutes. They just can't help themselves :p . If this happens get your parachute washed by your rigger. I'm sure you wouldn't want to go flying on a long X country and smell that all the way.

All in all I treat my parachutes like a child. I keep it clean and do not abuse it by throwing it around, letting it get sunburned or micturated upon. I also give it regular check ups. I do my own rigging so it doesn't cost me anything.

Another thing for you to think about is getting your rigger ticket. If you can build a plane then you should be able to sew a patch, pack a canopy, and take a 50 question test :eek: :eek: :eek: . The best part about it is that they give you the instruction manual to use while you repack!

Choosing your rigger is a very personal choice, just like choosing your doctor. Remember not all riggers are created equal. Some of them specialize in sport repacks, and others specialize in bail out rigs. Some things to ask your rigger would be:

1. How many repacks has he or she done? (it only takes 25 repacks to get your rating.)
2. Are they a master rigger? (Only a master rigger can do reserve repairs and harness repairs without supervision)
3. Are they rated for the type or container you have (seat packs require a different rating).
4. Will they allow you to watch them repack your reserve? (this is a biggy folks! I suggest that you do it at least once, and if they don't want you to watch then walk away and go immediately to another rigger!!!!!!!!!!!!)
5. Do they have any confirmed saves? (This is not so important, although if you do use your bail out rig then be prepared to purchase your rigger a bottle of their choice. It is kind of an unwritten law to hook your rigger up for saving your life. Think of it as manlaw. I have saved myself a few times and bought myself a case of Sam Adams each time as a token of gratitude for myself :confused: :D ).

I hope this helps out, and if it persuades even one of you to get your reserve repacked and watch your rigger do it then I have accomplished something good! :)

Grant
 
Sec. 91.307 - 91


(a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and --

(1) If a chair type (canopy in back), it has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger within the preceding 120 days; or

(2) If any other type, it has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger --

(i) Within the preceding 120 days, if its canopy, shrouds, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or other similar synthetic fiber or materials that are substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, or other fungi and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

(ii) Within the preceding 60 days, if any part of the parachute is composed of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or materials not specified in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section.

(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot in command may allow, and no person may conduct, a parachute operation from an aircraft within the United States except in accordance with part 105 of this chapter.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds --

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to --

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by --

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with ?61.67 of this chapter.

(e) For the purposes of this section, approved parachute means --

(1) A parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a technical standard order (C-23 series); or

(2) A personnel-carrying military parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or AN drawing number, an AAF order number, or any other military designation or specification number.
 
A square would treat you well!

jmbaute said:
Until recently, a 120 repack cycle was mandated. I believe this has now been extended to 180 days. Seems they found less wear by not messing with it vs opening, inspecting, repacking.

Best to store in an air conditioned space, and keep it dry. Treat it like you would any other piece of equipment that your life depends on!

I'm not too familiar with the emergency rigs, but I imagine the bailout rigs are designed to open the fastest...a couple hundred feet. Bigger problem is probably the pilots reaction time to get out, find the handle and pull. Me personally, I really think I'd want a square parachute, and be able to choose my landing area, but the 28' rounds probably open faster.

But, that is my opinion based on lots of experience with square parachutes.
Click to expand...



If you have a bunch of skydives then you are probably going to feel really comfortable under a square. The reason I reccomend rounds is that they are fairly simple and do not lose as much altitude after a turn. It is harder to hook yourself into the ground under a round. You can seriously injure yourself if not kill your self by turning a square parachute into the ground. :(
 
-4 'chutes

I use a National 425 seat-pack in my -4, to get the most legroom. I made a cushion extension to sit forward of the seat pack for more thigh support. My negative g strap comes up between the pack and the cushion. With the temperfoam in the pack, it is the best seat I've had in the -4.
 
Geronimooooooooo!

WSBuilder said:
What are the maintenance considerations for chutes? Storage conditions and re-packs? What about selecting for pattern versus cruise altitude?
Click to expand...
Check out the site I ref above he has suggestions and info., very good stuff. I saw him at an Oshkosh presentation. He is focused on emergency parachutes for pilots only but is a very accomplished jumper. You should always take your chute out of the plane, and find a nice large hard sided suit-case to store it in when out of the plane. Hot, wet, dry, dirty all bad. So consider that. Repack cost is not too bad. There is no parachute police either.

IF SOLO YOU DON'T NEED A CHUTE
IF DUAL YOU BOTH NEED A CHUTE TO DO AEROBATICS (its the law)

As far as the comment of opening, the certification regulations require a min time to open, I think 3 seconds. So you can be very low (pattern) to open if say your body is doing 150 mph horizontally. However if doing 200 mph straight down you will use 900 feet. So you COULD use a chute in the pattern in theory and it's been done. THAT IS WHY YOU JUMP/OPEN, JUMP/OPEN, don't try to skydive if you are not a skydiver.


Spizzzarko said:
Hi,

3. It is generally a good idea to get training on how to land a parachute properly. If you do bail out and survive you still have to contend with landing the parachute, and breaking yourself after the bail out would be pretty lame if you ask me.

Please take the time to go to your local United States Parachute Association affiliated Drop Zone and get a little training in PLF's (Parachute Landing Falls) and how to operate your system. Grant
Click to expand...

Nice post lurker. :D

I would say getting training is good but actually jumping is not necessary (and you did not say that). You don't have to do a jump to be competent user of an emergency pilot chute which are round. It's a good idea. However if you use a square sport chute, you better get training, including jumping.

Excellent articles for the sport pilot using emergency chutes:
http://www.pia.com/silver/articles.htm
http://www.pia.com/silver/hints.htm

Unlike parachute guys there's NO free-fall like you see in the movies. Don't worry about stabilizing or anything. You may not have altitude one day so plan on an immediate opening and not waiting. This should all be in your brain to be done automatically, so mental practice is needed on the ground.

Remember open the canopy FIRST, than un-do seat belt, than jump, than pull "D" ring without delay.

Practice pulling the "D" ring with both hands together at the same time. Practice but don't actually PULL the "D" ring (which is behind a velcro cover) or the chute will open in your hanger. Go thru the motion of finding the "D" ring (with both hands since one arm may be broke on a bad day) and make the motion of pulling straight out; do this drill over and over again until its motor memory. You may have stuff in your eyes and watering so do it by feel. It is suggested you put the chute on outside the plane, and get in and out of the plane with the chute on. For one you practice getting out with the chute on...hint. ;)

Don't forget the cell phone on your person so you can call for help and a pizza while you wait for help as you are hanging from the trees. Also some suggest a cutter to cut the straps if needed. Land into the wind and KEEP YOUR LEGS TOGETHER. If its windy you may need to get the harness off. The harness designs vary. I like the chest strap and two leg straps v. the acro harness. The chest goes off first because it could strangle you. You don't necessarily have to buy quick release buckle. There is a way to double back the strap so you can pull it with one motion to get it out fast.
threadchutebucklerk3.jpg
 
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I'll just add one thing to this: regardless if you actually jump or not (I'll jump out of an airplane if a wing falls off, but that's about it) what's equally important....MORE important, actually....is EGRESS TRAINING.

When I was first learning acro, my instructor basically made me go to the egress training class he was holding. They took an old, non-flying Citabria and put someone in the front seat and the back seat. Then they'd let you get in there and get comfortable for a couple of minutes. Suddenly, someone would yell "BAIL BAIL BAIL" and the rest of the group grabbed the wings and fuselage and started shaking the bejezzus out of the plane while you and your passenger had to get out.

The first ones to try took almost 20 seconds. That's a LONG time, and we were all in a plane that we were familiar with and is VERY easy to get in and out of in the first place. By the end of the class, we were all WELL below 10. We finally got the "break what you have to" instinct and were slaming open doors, tossing headsets or ripping them out of the jacks, beating up instrument panels, WHATEVER to get the heck out of there. It's not the natural first reaction, believe me...it has to be learned!
 
Stuff of Nightmares

Ya know, you guys are making it hard to concentrate on pounding rivets when I'm wetting myself thinking about "the bad thing." :)
It's not just about "when the wing falls off." I remember reading an ariticle in the EAA mag about a 63 year old guy who wanted to sell his first homebuilt. Some wood job I don't remember what. He never did stall/spins in it and didn't want someone to get a bad surprise. He wore an emergency chute, never having jumped. In short order he had the airplane at altitude in a flat spin. He spent several thousand feet trying to recover, then several more trying to get out. The centrifugal force had him pinned against the seat and his pack kept catching on the aft portion of the canopy. His physical condition didn't help. After he managed to dump himself onto the wing he fell away in a flat spin, himself. His chute exploded open and he said the fabic looked like it had been peppered with bird shot. He saw the sillouete of his still-flat-spinning airplane coming down on top of him, but then miss him by feet. He was still spinning and rocking when he hit the ground. He landed bad and was roughed up, but alive.
That story made me vow that I would go get training and actually jump a few times before I flew my pride and joy. The departure will not be harmoneous. A lot of traumatic things will have gone wrong and it WILL be a life or death situation. Learning new, challenging things during that doesn't sound like a good plan.
 
Grant Piper

I am researching my own purchase of a reserve chute and read this with interest.

Grant, would you pls detail your height and weight.

Thanks

Jim
 
My Softie works great

I have a Softie backpack which I originally purchased for flying gliders (chutes are required equipment for glider competitions). It works perfectly in my -4. I just pull out the seat back cushion and everything works out fine.

Call the manufacturer for dimensional info and sizing. They're happy to help.

I often wear my chute for solo flight in the -4, just because I'd feel really stupid if it was sitting on the ground when I really needed it!

M
 
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