...then square the turn at the 180. That G loading right there is where you'll bleed the most speed, plus it'll displace you to a proper distance from centerline to keep the turn in for the remaining 180 degrees. If you're still too fast, ease the turn but keep the bank in and wrap up the 135 to 45 and bleed some more. You can ease the G at the 180 but keep the angle of bank in so that it remains one continuous turn. Nothing ruins a good break more than rolling wings level! If you try and rip into the G right at the break you'll be wrapped up, high and fast on final. Also the faster you go, the earlier you need to break. Rip it off just prior to the numbers and you'll keep a continuous turn in until short final, and have a nice 15 second groove.
HUH?
Sig (is that your call sign?),
Correct me if I'm wrong in my translation of the quote above that confused David (and no face shot, but I had to read it a couple times too, and I'm a squid...even an LSO
)
I think you're using 180, 135 and 45 in this case to describe the break turn to downwind...right? I had to ponder that, as that normally applies to the approach turn (abeam, base and final). Well at least to a kool-aid drinkin', forked-tongue paddles, right!
What you're describing is rolling into the break, and pulling like a big dog to bleed energy like a stuck pig for the first half of the break turn, then floating it a bit (with bank still in) to get the desired abeam distance, then re-applying the g to finish the break turn to the downwind heading, thus scrubbing a little more speed in the latter part of the turn...right?
Sounds like it might work, but should be a briefing item if its more than single ship.
Unless you mean to wrap it up at the 135 and the 45 of the approach turn...but that seems a pretty unstable approach method.
For Ken, who I know did breaks in Primary at P-cola, its a good question. There probably is a perfect speed to use to break at the numbers, use a 2g (or so) pull and wind up at the perfect abeam distance at the 180 (abeam the numbers) and then continue a continuous turn to final. But it'll be a lot slower than 175, as you have seen.
The FFI standard training speed is 130kts, and I will tell ya that you roll out downwind just about right (at 2 gs), and very close to Vfe. Works pretty well for recovering a flight, and you could do it at the numbers.
Would be interested in thoughts from Team RV and Falcon Flight guys that are doing this in an airshow environment, with respect to speeds and g in the break that looks great to the crowd.
I fly the standard in formations, but like to zorch into the break much faster when alone, or maybe in an experienced section (2-ship for the USAF bros
) but as you touched on, you need to break at midfield or the upwind numbers (field length dependent) to prevent going long in the groove (aka, fly a bomber pattern with a halaciously long final). The good news about flying farther upwind is that more folks get to see you parade on by before you break.
As you have seen, if you pull max g to bleed speed, even at high speeds, you end up close abeam (Sig's technique may help with that, will have to test it), and if you float the turn, it takes a lot of distance on downwind to slow.
I guess you could also break fast at the numbers and slip all the way around the approach turn to help slow down and go down, but that beats the tail up a bit at higher speeds, IMHO.
Breaking at the fantail (numbers) is cool, but speed is fun too, and I'm enjoying putting out a little smoke while coming into the break too, so going upwind a bit and saying hi to the bros (not showboating, of course
) then doing a crisp, level break is satisfying too, even if you're wings level for a bit on downwind to slow.
A continuous turn is neat, but Sig, I'd have to say that climbing or descending in the break is a bust too! Especially if there's more than one of ya!!
One last method, sometimes employed for very fast breaks at the fantail: Come at the numbers from 45 deg off, so that you have more than 180 deg of turn to the downwind. Also looks very cool...but ya need a supportive tower (or airboss), or an empty non-towered field to do it...pretty non-standard, so not a normally recommended pattern entry!
Did that help or make it worse?
One last item, don't forget the LSO shorthand given to someone that did a great Sierra Hotel break, but couldn't get aboard:
JWIB-SOB
(John Wayne In the Break - Sucked On the Ball) (S actually is the four letter word, but you get what I mean!) If you're gonna go big, gotta fly it all the way through the roll-out! (or the trap)
Ken, let us know what you develop as techniques!
Cheers,
Bob