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OSH forum: Preparing for Aerobatics in an RV

ronrapp

ronrapp

Well Known Member
Patron
I'll be giving a presentation on the topic of preparing for aerobatics in an RV at the IAC Aerobatics Center on Tuesday at 10 am.

Areas of discussion will include:
  • types of acro that are best suited for RVs
  • the difference between purpose-built aerobatic airplanes and RVs
  • how the E-AB freedoms we enjoy can impact aerobatics
  • how to find and identify quality aerobatic training, and
  • what such training should (and should not) include.
It's a big topic and I can't cover it all in the allotted time, but my goal is to cover some of the most frequently asked questions that I've seen and been asked, and help you get on your way to enjoying the full "total performance" of your RV.

Hope to see you there!

--Ron
 
Hi Ron.

Ron Schreck used to give this presentation. He had a pretty good slide show. Have you been in contact with him? I’m sure you’re all set.

Jerry
 
RV8Squaz said:
Hi Ron.

Ron Schreck used to give this presentation. He had a pretty good slide show. Have you been in contact with him? I’m sure you’re all set.

Jerry
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I haven’t, but that’s a great idea. I’ll send him a DM here and hopefully he sees it. Or if you wanna send me his email I can contact him that way. It would be interesting to see how the presentations compare.

—Ron
 
I’m unable to attend at Oshkosh, but would certainly be interested in a video recording, or even just the slides and notes, if either become available.
 
GyroF-16 said:
I’m unable to attend at Oshkosh, but would certainly be interested in a video recording, or even just the slides and notes, if either become available.
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I'd be more than happy to send you the slides and notes. Just DM me your email address and I'll send them your way (though I might not get around to it till after the craziness of Airventure :)

--Ron
 
ronrapp said:
what such training should (and should not) include.
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Ron - Not sure if you're going to address it..... But I think SPIN training (and not just the usual GA "Spin recognition, but never ever get into an actual spin" training) is mandatory before someone attempts going up and doing Acro. Getting into and out of different spins, seeing fully developed, spin prevention, etc are the baseline before even learning the most basic aerobatics, imho. Because even "gentleman" acro in an RV, done wrong, can result in an out of control condition.

Any acro training also should include preventing the conditions that can cause prop/engine overspeeds - i.e. zero or negative G's unless you have an inverted system. Which I would guess the majority of RV's do NOT have.
 
Notso said:
Ron - Not sure if you're going to address it..... But I think SPIN training (and not just the usual GA "Spin recognition, but never ever get into an actual spin" training) is mandatory before someone attempts going up and doing Acro. Getting into and out of different spins, seeing fully developed, spin prevention, etc are the baseline before even learning the most basic aerobatics, imho. Because even "gentleman" acro in an RV, done wrong, can result in an out of control condition.

Any acro training also should include preventing the conditions that can cause prop/engine overspeeds - i.e. zero or negative G's unless you have an inverted system. Which I would guess the majority of RV's do NOT have.
Click to expand...
Good points, and I have them in my presentation.

The "training" section covers what a good basic aerobatic syllabus should include, and spins are prominent as a dedicated figure as well as the being a likely unusual attitude from many of the other figures. It's quite common to spin out of an Immelmann, for example. People fall out of loops all the time, and if recovery is attempted too soon, it's common to see a stall/spin result. And of course any time you're pulling hard, you can pitch past critical AOA.

Hammerheads can result in inverted spins since the typical left yaw most of us select at the top with high power settings causes gyroscopic precession which pitches the nose "up" and is responded to by forward elevator: the control positions for an inverted spin.

I am not going to get that much into the weeds in the presentation, but I'm going to emphasize the importance of spin training. I could do a full hour just on spins alone, but there's so much more to cover.

Thanks for the input!

--Ron
 
Notso said:
SPIN training (and not just the usual GA "Spin recognition, but never ever get into an actual spin" training) is mandatory before someone attempts going up and doing Acro.
Click to expand...
I should add that I learned to fly at an aerobatic flight school, and they would not allow any student pilots to solo until they had done multi turn spins in an aerobatic airplane and proved the ability and enter and recover from spins on their own. I've been a huge advocate of true practical spin training since then. :)
 
ronrapp said:
I should add that I learned to fly at an aerobatic flight school, and they would not allow any student pilots to solo until they had done multi turn spins in an aerobatic airplane and proved the ability and enter and recover from spins on their own. I've been a huge advocate of true practical spin training since then. :)
Click to expand...

Ron used to teach at Sunrise Aviation, a prominent Southern California flight training center that unfortunately closed its doors last year due to the owners’ advancing age and decision to retire. Sunrise and its owner Michael Church had a comprehensive aerobatics program and taught primarily in Decathlons, but they also had a Pitts and an Extra, and they were quite activel in the local IAC chapter’s activities. I took their basic acro course many years ago.

I’ve flown formation and aerobatics with Ron and I can say that he definitely knows his stuff. His talk will be worth seeing!

Skylor
 
skylor said:
Ron used to teach at Sunrise Aviation, a prominent Southern California flight training center that unfortunately closed its doors last year due to the owners’ advancing age and decision to retire. Sunrise and its owner Michael Church had a comprehensive aerobatics program and taught primarily in Decathlons, but they also had a Pitts and an Extra, and they were quite activel in the local IAC chapter’s activities. I took their basic acro course many years ago.

I’ve flown formation and aerobatics with Ron and I can say that he definitely knows his stuff. His talk will be worth seeing!

Skylor
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Thanks for the endorsement. :)

One of the things that made Sunrise unique was the fact that we would check you out in a Pitts or Extra and then let you rent them -- solo. And take passengers. I'm not aware of any school or FBO anywhere in the world that would do that. And in 40 years of operation, there was never any issue with aircraft damage, injury, or fatality. Which is the long way of saying, we must have been doing something right.

Michael will be giving a forum at the IAC Center as well. And so will Ty Frisby. A Sunrise reunion of sorts...

--Ron
 
ronrapp said:
Good points, and I have them in my presentation.

The "training" section covers what a good basic aerobatic syllabus should include, and spins are prominent as a dedicated figure as well as the being a likely unusual attitude from many of the other figures. It's quite common to spin out of an Immelmann, for example. People fall out of loops all the time, and if recovery is attempted too soon, it's common to see a stall/spin result. And of course any time you're pulling hard, you can pitch past critical AOA.

Hammerheads can result in inverted spins since the typical left yaw most of us select at the top with high power settings causes gyroscopic precession which pitches the nose "up" and is responded to by forward elevator: the control positions for an inverted spin.

I am not going to get that much into the weeds in the presentation, but I'm going to emphasize the importance of spin training. I could do a full hour just on spins alone, but there's so much more to cover.

Thanks for the input!

--Ron
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AWESOME!! I wish I was there this year....
 
ronrapp said:
I should add that I learned to fly at an aerobatic flight school, and they would not allow any student pilots to solo until they had done multi turn spins in an aerobatic airplane and proved the ability and enter and recover from spins on their own. I've been a huge advocate of true practical spin training since then. :)
Click to expand...
That's outstanding! I think we do our current PPL students a disservice by not teaching them spin recovery stuff. Heck, they barely are allowed to stall the airplane these days.

I wonder how many traffic pattern LOC mishaps we've had over the years might have been fixed by good spin recognition and recovery?? Although I do acknowledge that access to spin certified A/C these days for students is not as simple as it once was.
 
ronrapp said:
I'll be giving a presentation on the topic of preparing for aerobatics in an RV at the IAC Aerobatics Center on Tuesday at 10 am.

Areas of discussion will include:
  • types of acro that are best suited for RVs
  • the difference between purpose-built aerobatic airplanes and RVs
  • how the E-AB freedoms we enjoy can impact aerobatics
  • how to find and identify quality aerobatic training, and
  • what such training should (and should not) include.
It's a big topic and I can't cover it all in the allotted time, but my goal is to cover some of the most frequently asked questions that I've seen and been asked, and help you get on your way to enjoying the full "total performance" of your RV.

Hope to see you there!

--Ron
Click to expand...
Any chance of a You Tube for those of us unable to attend?
 
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