New, with some questions for RV-14A

[Vyrys]

Hey everyone,
I don't own a RV (yet) but have a feller close to me that is looking to sell his 14A.
Currently I fly a 1980 C172, which is IFR capable, lowish hours on engine (700) and in great shape.
It's a very comfortable plane for me. I like the sitting position and ease of entry/exit. Also ducking under the wings (when needed) vs walking around the low wings in the hangar, especially on those long days during annual or cleaning, etc.
I'm 63, but pretty agile and in good shape.
The 172 is still on vacuum system, and avionics in general are older, but all working properly.

The 14A that is being offered is a 2016 model, total time is about 350hrs, both airframe and engine.
It is not IFR capable, as it doesn't have a GPS at all, except built into the Dynon, which is a Skyview (not HDX), along with engine monitor, ADSB out, and single com radio.
Nice paint, no real interior to speak of except seats.
That's pretty much it.
So, I'd want to add a GPS for IFR, some interior, and upgrade the Dynon 10" to the HDX model.

I've only ever ridden in a RV-7A, and had about an hour instruction in that one. It was fine, but very tight for me and the instructor, hence my interest in the 14A.
It's been a few years too, and I don't remember everything about it, but I do remember it was nice climbing out at 110 at 1000ft per minute instead of 75 at 500fpm.
I also remember as a passenger, I could almost never get comfortable with the stick and rudder pedals in the way. I always felt like I was interfering with those controls.

My questions:
1. At my age, is the 14A, (with IO-390) too much performance to handle safely/easily?
2. What is a decent price for a 14A with those specs? I have flown 182's and DA40, (as well as Mooney and a Bonanza briefly. None of those were too much)
3. Is the 14/A that much roomier? I have sat in one, but only as a single person at Oshkosh.
4. Can the passenger stick be removed for some flights?
5. My GF hates turbulence, especially yaw. How is the 14A in turbulence?.. compared to say a 172, or Cherokee maybe?

I'd really like to get this plane, but I do need to know these things, and the price will likely be the deciding factor (other than safety).
Thanks in advance!

 

[bwagner]

1. I'm 65 and am completely comfortable with the performance of my 14A with an IO-390-EXP119 (dyno'd 227hp). Control harmony is at least as good as my prior 7A, and there's little to no adverse yaw. The sub-50kt stalls are just slightly more abrupt, but straightforward in recovery. Instrument approaches are hand-flyable stable without being stodgy (e.g. C182). The 2800+fpm solo weight climb rates are thrilling. Take off and landing distances both easily under 500'. It is a little more trim sensitive in the roll axis than the 7A was, but again easily managed.
2. Asking prices these days seems to be in the $275K to $310K range.
3. It's roomier in that there's no rubbing shoulders nor bumping your head on the canopy like the 7A was (I'm 6', 170lbs). Seating height and visibility is even better.
4. Both sticks bolt-in by default, so there's the potential to make the passenger side one removable (which I indeed did on the 7A build).
5. I've only experienced light to moderate turbulence conditions in the course of 4hr legs thus far, but in general find the ride more comfortable than the 7A was despite the wing loading similarity - YMMV.

It's a joy to fly whether flightseeing at 125ktas/5.5gph or barreling along crosscountry at 170+ktas/9.5gph

 

[czechsix]

If you can fly a 172, you can fly an RV-14A...the important thing is to get good transition training. The 14 isn't hard to fly, but it is different than a Cessna.

Regarding price, it sounds like this airplane has a pretty basic panel and interior. So it should be significantly less expensive than other 14's that have full IFR panels and Classic Aero interiors...

Regarding turbulence, a 3-axis autopilot with a good yaw damper will help. Also, compared to your Cessna, the RV-14 climbs really fast, so you can get up high to cooler, smoother air more quickly. That's something my wife (who gets airsick easily) really appreciated about my RV-8A after some unpleasant summer flights in a Cessna where it took all day to get up to 8000', wallowing around in the hot turbulent air.

 

[BobTurner]

My questions:
1. At my age, is the 14A, (with IO-390) too much performance to handle safely/easily?
2. What is a decent price for a 14A with those specs? I have flown 182's and DA40, (as well as Mooney and a Bonanza briefly. None of those were too much)
3. Is the 14/A that much roomier? I have sat in one, but only as a single person at Oshkosh.
4. Can the passenger stick be removed for some flights?
5. My GF hates turbulence, especially yaw. How is the 14A in turbulence?.. compared to say a 172, or Cherokee maybe?

I'd really like to get this plane, but I do need to know these things, and the price will likely be the deciding factor (other than safety).
Thanks in advance!

1. Most 63 y.o. Pilots will adapt. Biggest single thing is the speed, things just happen much faster.
2. Answer can vary wildly with avionics and, believe it or not, paint.
3. Yes. In a -7 you will be shoulder to shoulder. The extra inch or two in a 14 makes a big difference.
4. Yes, but not in two minutes. More like 30 minutes. And note, due to the Vans’ design of the rudder cables, the right side pedals cannot be removed without a major re-work.
5. I think you’ll notice yaw more than in the 172, due to the shorter tail but mostly due to the higher speed. Pilots with a GF or sensitive wife often ‘step up’ to the very expensive autopilot with yaw damper which, by most reports, works well. (I built/own a -10 with no yaw damper, I’m happy; other -10 owners say they have to have it, so ymmv.)
If you’re thinking of IFR, you’ll want a TSO’d GPS. But also look at redundancy (EFIS quits, alternator quits, etc)

 

[dmattmul]

My questions:
1. At my age, is the 14A, (with IO-390) too much performance to handle safely/easily?
2. What is a decent price for a 14A with those specs? I have flown 182's and DA40, (as well as Mooney and a Bonanza briefly. None of those were too much)
3. Is the 14/A that much roomier? I have sat in one, but only as a single person at Oshkosh.
4. Can the passenger stick be removed for some flights?
5. My GF hates turbulence, especially yaw. How is the 14A in turbulence?.. compared to say a 172, or Cherokee maybe?

I'd really like to get this plane, but I do need to know these things, and the price will likely be the deciding factor (other than safety).
Thanks in advance!

68 and 600+ hrs on my 14A and love it. Tried the 7 and it was just a little too tight for long cross countries. Feel very safe but decided at 75 to hang my spurs up.

Sounds like pretty basic airframe, 200k should get it if not less. Get a thorough inspection, 350 hrs. is not a lot of time for 9 years.

Sure, the passenger stick can be removed but why? Never bothered my wife.

Make sure you get a yaw damper; my wife can tell if I am hand flying and the yaw damper is not on. I can't but I've heard that's normal.

 

[Vyrys]

Sounds like pretty basic airframe, 200k should get it if not less. Get a thorough inspection, 350 hrs. is not a lot of time for 9 years.

My exact thoughts too, on both accounts. I feel that will be the biggest roadblock to a deal, but, never know.
The second roadblock is getting a ride in it. I told him to take me up and get me hooked so I couldn't say no, but he's yet to make that happen, even with me doing a little prodding. Funny thing is, he's the one in a hurry to sell.

4. Yes, but not in two minutes. More like 30 minutes. And note, due to the Vans’ design of the rudder cables, the right side pedals cannot be removed without a major re-work.
5. I think you’ll notice yaw more than in the 172, due to the shorter tail but mostly due to the higher speed. Pilots with a GF or sensitive wife often ‘step up’ to the very expensive autopilot with yaw damper which, by most reports, works well.

Good information Bob, thank you.
I thought I saw somewhere that you could have 'snap-in' stick for the co-pilot side, with a quick release connector for any wiring. I'd be happy with just a panel mount PTT button for co-pilot in the 14. It's what I have in the 172 and works fine for those occasional times.
I forgot to mention, this particular 14 has an autopilot already, but I do not know if it has the yaw damper. Can one be added without changing out anything else?

1. I'm 65 and am completely comfortable with the performance of my 14A with an IO-390-EXP119 (dyno'd 227hp). Control harmony is at least as good as my prior 7A, and there's little to no adverse yaw. The sub-50kt stalls are just slightly more abrupt, but straightforward in recovery. Instrument approaches are hand-flyable stable without being stodgy (e.g. C182). The 2800+fpm solo weight climb rates are thrilling. Take off and landing distances both easily under 500'. It is a little more trim sensitive in the roll axis than the 7A was, but again easily managed.

That is great to hear, and I can tell you enjoy your bird.
I will add that I think that's the first comment I've heard about a 182 being stodgy on approaches. All I've ever heard is how stable they are for hand flying. Unless I'm reading your post wrong..but I have only flown VFR in them and no approaches.
I do feel that any plane out of rigging is much less stable than one properly rigged. Always fighting those corrections.


Something else I am a bit concerned about, is the ever increasing insurance rates. I know mine would likely triple until I got several hours in type.
Any horror stories to share haha.. ?

 

[Mike S]

Nathan, welcome aboard the good ship VAF

Methinks you might find the insurance to be a much bigger stumbling block than your ability to fly the plane.

 

[Vyrys]

Nathan, welcome aboard the good ship VAF

Methinks you might find the insurance to be a much bigger stumbling block than your ability to fly the plane.

Haha.. I'd wager you are correct sir.

 

[Ralph Inkster]

Only the very odd pilot induced story...
If proper transition trained, nearly any pilot can fly a 14A.
If you want to step up from your beloved 172 (for comparison sake lets call it similar to a Chevy sedan), loosely view moving to a 14A is like trading up to a Hi Output Mustang (of a few years ago, not the new Mustangs!).
Good Luck in your plane search!

 

[dmattmul]

Something else I am a bit concerned about, is the ever increasing insurance rates. I know mine would likely triple until I got several hours in type.
Any horror stories to share haha.. ?

Mine is very reasonable at 2,200 hrs. but anything over 500 hrs. and with proper transition training should be ok. I'm just north of Tampa, come on down and I'll get you hooked. It's one of the most docile airframes I've flown and to me much more stall forgiving than a 7 which tends to drop a wing (right) and it's a little nasty. The 14 (and 10) just mush straight after a stick vibration. Look down (at your instruments) and you are descending ~700 FPM but in perfect control, release back pressure and you are flying!

 

[BobTurner]

My exact thoughts too, on both accounts. I feel that will be the biggest roadblock to a deal, but, never know.
The second roadblock is getting a ride in it. I told him to take me up and get me hooked so I couldn't say no, but he's yet to make that happen, even with me doing a little prodding. Funny thing is, he's the one in a hurry to sell.



Good information Bob, thank you.
I thought I saw somewhere that you could have 'snap-in' stick for the co-pilot side, with a quick release connector for any wiring. I'd be happy with just a panel mount PTT button for co-pilot in the 14. It's what I have in the 172 and works fine for those occasional times.
I forgot to mention, this particular 14 has an autopilot already, but I do not know if it has the yaw damper. Can one be added without changing out anything else?



That is great to hear, and I can tell you enjoy your bird.
I will add that I think that's the first comment I've heard about a 182 being stodgy on approaches. All I've ever heard is how stable they are for hand flying. Unless I'm reading your post wrong..but I have only flown VFR in them and no approaches.
I do feel that any plane out of rigging is much less stable than one properly rigged. Always fighting those corrections.


Something else I am a bit concerned about, is the ever increasing insurance rates. I know mine would likely triple until I got several hours in type.
Any horror stories to share haha.. ?

Call Gallagher insurance agency (they advertise on this site) and have a free chat. They can give you an idea of rates for you (and yes, until you’ve got 50-100 hours in type, it’s expensive).
I think the comment about 182’s being ‘stodgy’ on approaches just meant they are very stable. A 182 and any RV are at the opposite ends of the stability spectrum, e.g., 182 feels heavy, like driving a truck, but is very stable. RV control forces are lighter, like driving a sports car, but not as stable. As to removable stick, anything is possible, but you’re unlikely to find this in an already built plane.
Edit: forgot your other question, can you add on a yaw damper to an existing autopilot? Answer is, it depends on what’s already installed.

 

[Vyrys]

You are correct. I thought he said stodgy in contrast to stable, and I have never heard that word before. I looked it up and that is a good word indeed for that description.

I'm definitely itching for a ride.

 

[georgemohr]

Good advice here. The 14 is the easiest plane I've flown, but you do want good training because it does have some handling differences from a Cessna. RV's in general get bumped around in turbulence more than say your 182, but nothing major. Do install the Yaw Damper if yaw oscillations are a concern because that is definitely an RV thing.

On the topic of power: this is not a concern. It really just means you can climb like crazy and have higher cruise speeds. The RV series can slow down very nicely so if the plane is getting ahead of you, just pull the black knob out a bit .

 

[Dan 57]

plenty of good remarks by experienced -14(A) jockeys above.
Though only owning a -6.9i, I've had a couple of hours in -14As, and reading you writing

I'm definitely itching for a ride.

I'd say you don’t need one... the seller might be reticent about taking you for a ride, the same I am towards people I don't know that well. Rest assured, the same-14 is barely, IMHO, a 51% homebuilt, thanks to matched holes final drill kits, a Ikea type build manual, even when leaving aside them quick built -14s where one basically throws in some wiring and avionics, hangs up the engine, and goes flying. All this to say you can't go wrong with the flying qualities of a -14, as those are serial builds.
If the price is really good (defined in this case as 150-230Ks), I'd invite an RV savvy builder, have her/him get a close look at the workmanship (riveting quality, engine install, wiring looms), ask for an oil analysis and a compression check, a quick borescope of the cylinders, and go for it. You sure won't regret the decision to move to a -14, but try not to buy a ...

Good luck

 

[Vansconvert]

Please read the private message I sent you.

 

[KMMUflyer]

Transition training like this can make your policy very affordable.

Here is what was on my first policy via Gallagher;
5 hours in my RV-7A before solo, with a CFI who has sufficient RV-7A time.
10 hours in the RV-7A before taking passengers.

The key is to get this training in your plane after you buy it, but before you fly it. Nearly all CFIs do not train in their own planes for various reasons including insurance.

It is tempting to try to roll the training into the Ferry flight, but that could be at the expense of practicing the key things you need.

Finding a CFI with make and model specific time is key.

 

[bmarvel]

Hey everyone,
I don't own a RV (yet) but have a feller close to me that is looking to sell his 14A.
Currently I fly a 1980 C172, which is IFR capable, lowish hours on engine (700) and in great shape.
It's a very comfortable plane for me. I like the sitting position and ease of entry/exit. Also ducking under the wings (when needed) vs walking around the low wings in the hangar, especially on those long days during annual or cleaning, etc.
I'm 63, but pretty agile and in good shape.
The 172 is still on vacuum system, and avionics in general are older, but all working properly.

The 14A that is being offered is a 2016 model, total time is about 350hrs, both airframe and engine.
It is not IFR capable, as it doesn't have a GPS at all, except built into the Dynon, which is a Skyview (not HDX), along with engine monitor, ADSB out, and single com radio.
Nice paint, no real interior to speak of except seats.
That's pretty much it.
So, I'd want to add a GPS for IFR, some interior, and upgrade the Dynon 10" to the HDX model.

I've only ever ridden in a RV-7A, and had about an hour instruction in that one. It was fine, but very tight for me and the instructor, hence my interest in the 14A.
It's been a few years too, and I don't remember everything about it, but I do remember it was nice climbing out at 110 at 1000ft per minute instead of 75 at 500fpm.
I also remember as a passenger, I could almost never get comfortable with the stick and rudder pedals in the way. I always felt like I was interfering with those controls.

My questions:
1. At my age, is the 14A, (with IO-390) too much performance to handle safely/easily?
2. What is a decent price for a 14A with those specs? I have flown 182's and DA40, (as well as Mooney and a Bonanza briefly. None of those were too much)
3. Is the 14/A that much roomier? I have sat in one, but only as a single person at Oshkosh.
4. Can the passenger stick be removed for some flights?
5. My GF hates turbulence, especially yaw. How is the 14A in turbulence?.. compared to say a 172, or Cherokee maybe?

I'd really like to get this plane, but I do need to know these things, and the price will likely be the deciding factor (other than safety).
Thanks in advance!

I’m 79 with 1600 hours in the -14A we built in western Colorado. I made the first flight in it in 2016 and had never even sat in one before — but did have 1700 hours in our -8A previously. With good transition training, which I did not have, you should have no difficulty.

Where do you live? I am in Vermont now and will head back to Colorado next week. Maybe you are on the way?
Bill Marvel

 

[94kb]

If you can fly a 172, you can fly an RV-14A...the important thing is to get good transition training. The 14 isn't hard to fly, but it is different than a Cessna.

Regarding price, it sounds like this airplane has a pretty basic panel and interior. So it should be significantly less expensive than other 14's that have full IFR panels and Classic Aero interiors...

Regarding turbulence, a 3-axis autopilot with a good yaw damper will help. Also, compared to your Cessna, the RV-14 climbs really fast, so you can get up high to cooler, smoother air more quickly. That's something my wife (who gets airsick easily) really appreciated about my RV-8A after some unpleasant summer flights in a Cessna where it took all day to get up to 8000', wallowing around in the hot turbulent air.

 

[Vyrys]

Thank you, and definitely appreciate the offer(s). My home base is in Western KY, but I could travel a little also.

I will say, I'd really prefer to at least take a ride in the plane I plan to purchase. I don't know much about Van's aircraft so I'm not sure exactly what to look for, but if anything seemed weird, I could investigate or ask questions.
A local -7A owner had some kind of oscillations after flying it for several years. I haven't been able to talk to him about any of that, but heard he never figured it out yet. Also heard about odd noises/vibrations from another owner, so just want a ride in the one I'm looking at.

Edit: And dang @Dan 57 , that Greenland trip looks incredible. Well done sir.

 

[bmarvel]

Thank you, and definitely appreciate the offer(s). My home base is in Western KY, but I could travel a little also.

I will say, I'd really prefer to at least take a ride in the plane I plan to purchase. I don't know much about Van's aircraft so I'm not sure exactly what to look for, but if anything seemed weird, I could investigate or ask questions.
A local -7A owner had some kind of oscillations after flying it for several years. I haven't been able to talk to him about any of that, but heard he never figured it out yet. Also heard about odd noises/vibrations from another owner, so just want a ride in the one I'm looking at.

Edit: And dang @Dan 57 , that Greenland trip looks incredible. Well done sir.

You absolutely, positively, should fly in the airplane that you’re going to buy! Better yet, have a friend who is familiar with RVs fly in it also. Additionally, you should have a thorough pre-purchase inspection done by someone experienced with the RV-14 but totally unaffiliated with yours. A neutral, knowledgeable set of eyes does wonders finding problems in other airplanes.

Unfortunately, I won’t be anywhere near KY on the way back to Colorado. But I am sure someone on this list living close to you would be happy to let you fly in theirs to get a feel for what it’s like.

FWIW, I’ve been flying for 58 years and have owned airplanes continually for the past 48. The RV-14A offers the best combination of load carrying, speed, economy, simplicity, reliability and overall capability of all. I’ve been to 18,000 feet in it (IO-390), routinely fly at 13,500 and 14,500 including operating out of Leadville and Telluride. Density altitudes are sometimes 11,500 on takeoff and it still climbs at 500 FPM or more. They are fantastic airplanes.

Buy a good one and keep it!