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That actually doesn't surprise me because I think we all know most of the people behind the ads. That's one of the things, I think, about these folks...many of them are RVers and if they're not, they're people who are at the other end of the phone. And, in many cases, they're people who are available on the forums. They're not the type of folks to dictate terms.

Without mentioning anyone in particular, the folks who don't seem to advertise are also the ones that not only don't seem to be the ones that don't want to support the site, they're also the ones that don't seem to want to be a real part of the RV community.

I'm about to spend some serious money -- that I don't have -- as I'm at the avionics/engine stage. I can't imagine spending it with folks other than the people here e, or the people who ARE part of the RV community as described above. And even then, the variety of people/firms to choose from with that criteria is immense.

Anyway, just something to think about as people assess the value of the forums and the VAF in particular.

Thanks for the nice comments, Doug. I'm about to get a new gig at work. I'm being moved from the online editor stuff to a new position they created in which they said, "go do whatever you want and write about whatever you find. But no first person, no politics, and no opinions." Gaaaaaaaa! What's left? Let's just say at my age -- 53 -- I'm a little concerned about the long-term viability of typing words on paper. Especially, like I said, being at the 'expensive" part of the RV project.

Anyway, keep up the good work and I think I'm due for renewal. As soon as I get back from San Francisco -- celebrating the 25th anniversary of the smartest decision my wife ever made :p -- I'll get a check in the mail.
 
up to us

I really think it's up to us, the RV community, to evaluate who we deal with
when we buy products for our projects. Showing support, by spending hard earned dollars, with folks who really embrace our specific needs, is the way to sway retailers and manuufacturers our way.

There is real power in the almighty dollar!!!

FWIW...Chris
 
Not to take anything away from Doug, but....

This is definitely a cool site and well run by Doug. He also seams to have the help of some very good moderators. I also think that he should also receive as much as he can from his efforts.

But, it is the knowledge that the users of this site that makes it so good. Not that Doug isn't smart and have lots of good answers, but he is not the best source of information on all subjects.

When I first started building I collected a lot of information from this site, but I also visited regularly Dan C. site as well as Andy Karmy, Brian Meyettes, Walter Tondu, Jerry Thorne and many others. The great thing about VAF is that you can ask question if you can't find the answers by searching.

If I were more motivated I might create my own web site with all my building pictures and description of how I solved problems. Instead I visit VAF almost everyday to see if I can answers someone else question. This is a form of payment for the use of Doug's and the other sites that I have used.

The more knowledge deposited on VAF the more value it has to the uses. The more users the more advertisers.

The other aspect that is nice about VAF is the community, but again this is the users of the site not just Doug.

Kent
 
time for my .02

I am not building yet, but because of what I have learned from all of you, I will start building in '08. There are many decisions to be made prior to placing the first order with Van's and the best way to gain the knowledge to make those decisions is from people like you who have already blazed the trail. It would be hard (if not impossible) to have accumulated so much information in this short of time without some kind of organized forum to draw from. You couldn't buy this kind of knowledge base for any amount of money let alone for free. VAF is THE BEST place I've found to gain RV info. It is like no other. When I start building, I can imagine my percieved value of this site will will increase tremendously.
That being said, I am building an airplane for "education and recreation", as well as for the finished product. Notice I didn't say "profit". That is the difference between Doug allowing dreamers to lurk for free (on the honor system), and charging businesses for advertising, or for curtailing businesess from benefiting from the power of a forum like this. As a businessman, Doug has his bills to pay just like the other businesses RVer's do business with. I support Doug's decision to limit group buys to concerns he has a business relationship with. And I encourage the individual users of this site to take a hard look at what value this site has to them and consider compensating Doug for this value.


I am proud to sport VAF #1100 in my signature block.
 
Jim Irwin (Spruce) responds positively. Somehow, I thought he would.

Thank you Jim.

After working with many of your employees, I have found them to be most courteous and helpful. Usually, that indicates they're working for a good person. Apparently, that's the case here.

Barry DiSimone

----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Irwin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:57 PM
Subject: Aircraft Spruce



Barry:

Thanks for your e-mail regarding Doug Reeves website. Our advertising is handled by our Marketing Department, and I was unaware of the discussion regarding our not advertising on this website. We will be glad to consider advertising on Doug's website, and I will ask our Marketing Manager, Desiree Czaplinski, to contact Doug this week.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. We appreciate all the business you have given us as well as the orders we receive from all RV builders, and we look forward to continuing to serve you in the future. Is your RV9A complete and flying?

Best Regards,

Jim Irwin
President, Aircraft Spruce
 
Way to Go!

Congratulations, Doug.
It looks like your difficult decision worked. I notice today that Aircraft Spruce has become a sponsor of VAF. That's great.
Hoping for future good relations with ACS, :)
Don
 
Impressive

This is pretty impressive!

Hats off to Doug for standing up for what he believes is the right way to run his business, to Barry DiSimone for modeling the power of direct, courteous communication, and to Jim Irwin for supporting a great aviation community.

My partner and I buy the supplies for our Cheetah based in SoCal from Aircraft Spruce and our experience mirrors Barry's. We are always treated well and it's a pleasure doing business there. It's great to see them support this great RV community.

David Wright
 
Outstanding

........and congratulations to all involved and welcome Aircraft Spruce. Many many parts of my airplane have Spruces' signature on them.

........the squeaky wheel, eh?

Good deal,
 
Thanks Barry and ACS

What a great, storybook-like ending! Several folks laid the groundwork (i.e., C.J. developing the group buy relationship with ACS and Doug for developing this site into a well-crafted, professional presence in our community) and it looks like Barry stepped in with the critical timing to make it happen. And, ACS had the sense to realize they need to support the site that results in so much of their business. Wonderful!
 
Louise,

Thanks for noticing. I do this for the RV builders as a whole. This isn't a money making venture for me. I do it because someone should.

I am sorry for all the people on this forum who appreciate my group buys, as I won't be hosting them here anymore.

If anyone wants to participate in my group buys in the future, please check in at www.rivetbangers.com and www.homebuiltairplanes.com for details.

I still can be found here in the future. However, the group buys won't be shared here. The Lord mount GB is still in the works and should be released soon.

I have the email list of participants and will send a group email out with details.

Thanks to all who participated.

Wade L., your support is always appreciated!

:cool: CJ
 
Group buys are now kaput.

Many comments have been made on this thread but the bottom line is that Doug's decision to leave group buys open only through site advertisers will effectively put an end to group buys through VansAirforce altogether. And that is a shame and a disservice to VansAirforce members in my opinion.

There have been quite a few very successful group buys through this site recently but to the best of my knowledge NOT ONE OF THEM involved a vendor who was advertising on VansAirforce at the time. I refer to the harness buy, the ICOM buy, the prop governor buy, and the camlock buy.

It's hard enough for anyone to set up a group buy....but restricting it to vendors advertising on Doug's site will make it virtually impossible.

I don't recollect that any of the vendors in the past group buys ever spruiked surreptitiously on the cheap on this forum by way of emails. On the contrary they were contacted by VansAirforce members and asked to participate in a group buy. There is no suggestion that any of the vendors acted in any untoward manner or took unfair advantage of VansAirforce.
 
Captain Avgas said:
It's hard enough for anyone to set up a group buy....but restricting it to vendors advertising on Doug's site will make it virtually impossible.
Click to expand...



Well. let's see....

Avery (an advertiser) had a nice little sale on drills and flaring tools, just the other day. Since they DO advertise, they're stepping on no ones toes, while making that special offer on this site.

Aircraft Spruce, (same company with the last radio group buy)is now free to do the same.

L.Adamson
 
Indeed, a "sale" is what happened.

"Sales" could/should happen all the time.

Group buys are for specific items that normally don't go "on sale".

The intention of my group buys was to leverage the buying power of the group in order to get OEM (almost) pricing on hard items for the building process. I am happy just getting the turkey for the price of the chicken, quite frankly.

It wasn't to beat up vendors or make someone go broke. I KNOW that ALL the vendors (especially the PCU 5000 people, Bob Honig specifically) were ELATED with the deals.

Don't worry, the GB's will continue.

I will be in touch with all who sent me emails in the past.

Best,

:) CJ
 
Captain_John said:
Indeed, a "sale" is what happened.

"Sales" could/should happen all the time.

Group buys are for specific items that normally don't go "on sale".

The intention of my group buys was to leverage the buying power of the group in order to get OEM (almost) pricing on hard items for the building process. I am happy just getting the turkey for the price of the chicken, quite frankly.

It wasn't to beat up vendors or make someone go broke. I KNOW that ALL the vendors (especially the PCU 5000 people, Bob Honig specifically) were ELATED with the deals.

Don't worry, the GB's will continue.

I will be in touch with all who sent me emails in the past.

Best,

:) CJ
Click to expand...


John,

I've been in business for just about 25 years. I well know the power & costs of advertising.

I also see both sides of the coin here, but agree with the final decision in the end. In fact, if I hadn't just blown a big wad of cash for an interior (thanks to an advertiser here)..............I'd been tempted to go for the radio.

But what I don't like seeing; is making a big deal about group buys, and then links to other forums, while making a conscious attempt to slightly undermine this one.

From comparing those other forums, it's easy to see, that a great deal of work has been put into this one. Many of the other popular forums that I've visited and "donated to", through the years, have the same policies. They have to...

L.Adamson
 
To you other advertisers on Doug's site....

To you other advertisers...
So that you are aware... I do visit the links and read the ads. I have made purchases because of your ads. I find products and ideas here that meet my needs. DO NOT count hits to your site as the total measure of success. Look at resulting sales. I buy when I get there. Often I do not find the best deal dollar wise, but I remember where I get burned. I buy what I need or like and move on. My biggest problem is time. What am I doing building a plane? (Now there is a good question, but that is another post)

My suggestion
for the group buys would be that Doug allows knowledge or the group buy to be known, but force any details price quantities etc to be communicated elsewhere. Vendor names not allowed. The person and putting the group buy together should make those details available only through their own channels like their own email or their own web site. Doug does allow links. If I were an advertiser on this site I would feel that this was reasonable. I think this would moderate the free exposure that suppliers receive to a level that would be acceptable to most people.

My 2?

Welcome to Aircraft Spruce. Glad to hear that you finally signed up on this site!
 
FWIW ........

I participate in group buys (two so far - would have been three but I didn't pull the trigger soon enough), and I certainly appreciate the ability to do so - I'm sure it is a lot of work and I have benefited from someone else doing the leg work. I check Doug's website and these forums at least once per day (usually more). I contribute my money because I believe it is well worth what I pay for it - and I will continue to donate. I do not check out the 'other' websites because I believe I get all I need here (and frankly, I spend way too much time as it is 'surfing' this site and keeping caught up on RV happenings). But now it looks like I'll have to visit the other sites frequently to keep up on the group buys as they arise. I don't particularly like that. I am hoping there is a way to work this out so we all can stay updated on current and future group buys utilizing this site. For me, that would be a win-win. If that cannot happen, I will certainly understand, but I will be dissapointed.

Just one vote that may or may not be counted.
 
No more VAF group buys?

I am a little confused. I don't think that Doug said no more group buys... he just said that we will only support group buys from vendors that bring their business (advertising) to this web site. I understand and can support that. I expect that under the encouragement of Doug and the rest of us... we'll have other "group buys" and "sales" offered here.

My money will follow those that provide the most reliable customer service. I am not looking for the ultimate best buy... to squeeze the last nickle out of a vendor. I would - and DO in my everyday life - reward vendors that give me great service with my purchasing dollars. No, I'm not rich either!! (My kids call me cheap... I prefer "frugal"!) :p

So - As I position myself to start my build project... I am not going to lose a whole lot of sleep over this little controversy.
 
Mr. Phyrecooler,

Group buys require someone to expend the time and effort to arrange the group buy and negotiate the best price (Captain John in this case, and others). If someone else is willing to step up, as CJ seems to have had a belly-full, maybe group buys might continue on this site, with site advertisers only.
 
Captain_John said:
Louise,

Thanks for noticing. I do this for the RV builders as a whole. This isn't a money making venture for me. I do it because someone should.

I am sorry for all the people on this forum who appreciate my group buys, as I won't be hosting them here anymore.

If anyone wants to participate in my group buys in the future, please check in at www.rivetbangers.com and www.homebuiltairplanes.com for details.

I still can be found here in the future. However, the group buys won't be shared here. The Lord mount GB is still in the works and should be released soon.

I have the email list of participants and will send a group email out with details.

Thanks to all who participated.

Wade L., your support is always appreciated!

:cool: CJ
Click to expand...

Cap'n----

I for one, do appreciate your prior efforts at the group buys. And I thank you for the effort you have put into them.

I have been following this thread with a more than casual interest, and one of the things that has jumped out at me, is Doug's lack of input here. I suspect he is getting quite a lot of chuckles out of being a "fly on the wall". I dont think I could maintain that much self control if it was my site, and a bunch of strangers publicly debated my business practices/income/life on my site.

I have been waiting for someone to suggest the following, however none have, so I will put forth the idea and see if it sticks to the wall.

If someone has an idea/suggestion for a group buy, look into it with the vendor, and get a few details. Then contact Doug directly by P.M. or such, and run it by him. I have a sneaking suspicion that such action will more than likely be met with cooperation, and if there is a way to make it happen, another successful group buy.

The above is strictly my thoughts, I have not talked to Doug about this, but I see it as a win-win for all of us.

And, Cap'n, please dont think I am telling you what to do------I just think this is a possible way for you to continue with the good you do, and keep it here with the VAF family.
 
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Mike, thank you, but Doug and I have been talking.

He has made a decision and I am willing to abide by it.

I do what I do for the builders... bar none.

I know people appreciate it from the DROVES of email I have been receiving this weekend. You are all welcome and I promise to keep you all in the loop.

See me on the other website(s) that are "By the People, for the People" and we can talk about it there.

Best to all,

;) CJ
 
Captain_John said:
Mike, thank you, but Doug and I have been talking.

He has made a decision and I am willing to abide by it.
Click to expand...

No problem, just thought I would put the idea out there.

Actually I am not really surprised the two of you have been talking, both of you seem to be out there looking out for the rest of us.

Thanks.
 
L.Adamson said:
John,

I've been in business for just about 25 years. I well know the power & costs of advertising.

But what I don't like seeing; is making a big deal about group buys, and then links to other forums, while making a conscious attempt to slightly undermine this one.
L.Adamson
Click to expand...

I've been in business for a long time too and what I've learnt is that it's competition that generates better service and better prices. There are so few advertisers on this site that there is no competition so any further MEANINGFUL group buys here are now highly unlikely. If you're expecting any...just don't hold your breath.

Incidentally, group buys might not mean much to you...but they mean a lot to many others. And Captain John has given much to the RV community by setting several group buys up for no personal gain other than getting a product at the same price as everyone else. And it is totally unfounded to accuse him of undermining VansAirforce....on the contrary, he has probably done considerably more than most to improve its popularity.
 
I'll save it for later.... :)

Nevermind



Captain Avgas said:
Incidentally, group buys might not mean much to you...but they mean a lot to many others. And And it is totally unfounded to accuse him of undermining VansAirforce....on the contrary, he has probably done considerably more than most to improve its popularity.
Click to expand...

Sure he has (popularity wise)! I've followed these group buys day to day. It's just the last few days, that the tone has made a severe change.
I'm certainly not too "blind" to notice :eek:

And BTW, excellent service, as in knowing the product, answering technical questions regarding the product, and offering the lowest price, usually don't go hand in hand.

I'm so dang good at what I do, that I'll never offer the lowest pricing. I just never seem to get all the complaints that the competition does. :D

P.S. ----- A majority of the best products & tools for RV building, DO advertise on this site. Your first paragraph in your original reply, seems to make little sense.

L.Adamson
 
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How about added value?

I've been resisting the urge to write this and I realise this is just one person?s opinion, but I feel someone should. As a person who has been involved with RV?s and the RV community and building an aircraft for nearly four years, I have had the opportunity to watch this site and others develop. Many have been here longer. I understand that too.

However, It has been my observation that since the closure of Yahoo groups and the number of advertisers on the site has increased dramatically, the site is becoming less and less useful to me. The public exchange of messages (forums) took place before VansAirforce and they will continue to do so regardless of whatever happens with VansAirforce.

What really exists here in the forums is a community of like minded enthusiasts. I have no issue with one such enthusiast making a living by providing a service to the rest of us but the commercial nature of that undertaking does not always suit the needs of the community although it has generally not been an issue and Doug tries hard to make that so.

It?s nice to see reports of flying RV?s and congratulations to Doug for developing a business model where the ?customers? develop most of the content for him and advertisers pay based on the sheer number of people viewing their ads. I would suggest that dealing with advertisers and doing the books takes more time than updating the site, but I am prepared to accept that I may be wrong on that one.

I would like to see more original RV related news on the front page/product announcements/in depth reviews of RV products and avionics etc. This would seem to be in conflict to the current business model but I do not see why this could be the case.

I have used many websites during the building of my aircraft. Dan Checkoway?s site is fantastic and there are a number of other builders who post things just as good, for free, for the benefit of the community. It is true I have learnt things here by reading the forums, but that is no different to the Yahoo groups or other public forums.

Bottom line Doug, I would like to see VansAirforce provide more value to me as a reader other than just to opportunity to exchange email messages with others. I don?t know what that involves. Perhaps some more original content, a sneak peek at upcoming products, maybe it is providing me with discounts that I cannot get anywhere else.

Whatever it is, show me the value. If you can do that, my $25 a year is yours. At the moment, my view is that I am already making you money by visiting the site and contributing and the advertisers are more than subsidising your cost in time and other costs to keep the forums running.

Just for the record, I haven?t participated in any of the group buys and I am not particularly concerned if they stay or go but I would like to encourage Doug to keep adding value to what he does here.

Richard
 
Too Bad about non advertiser group buys

I enjoy your site Doug, and I am grateful that you constructed, maintain and host it. However for me the site is more about the entertainment value than the practical contribution to building and completing my airplane. My impression is that this site is geared more toward those flying than building. This doesn't bother me since it is inspiring, and I plan to join the ranks of those flying before long.

At this stage of my plane I am more interested in product reviews, "how to" articles (without getting lectured) and of course access to group buys of all types. I have participated in three of the group buys, and two were for companies that do not advertise on the site (Crow Harnesses - 5 point harnesses and American Propeller - governor). I am disappointed that this site will not be allowed to be used as an organizing point for future group buys unless they are sponsored by those companies that advertise here. From my perspective this reduces the value of the site.

Antony
 
I appreciate your input Antony, but respectfully disagree.

A company can advertise in any non-forums, non-front page location on this site for $365 a year (ex: The RV White Pages, The Wallpaper Calendar page, The RV Hotel, The DAR List, The Transition Training List, etc.) All advertisers get their ad in the Advertisers Index.

Doing this would allow them to promote group buys in the forums and send in press releases for the front page.

I can't believe $1 per day is too much to ask of a company in exchange for continually spreading the word of a group buy to over 21,000 people (6,700+ registered forum users and an additional 15,000+ non-registered 'lurkers'). They would spend a lot more than this on any mass mailing.

This arrangement would also include a daily plug at the top of the site during the group buy 'window'.

Again, I appreciate your input.

Kindest,
Doug
 
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point taken

I believe I understand your viewpoint. I think you have identified a good business model and you are charting your course toward making it work while satisfying as many of the needs of your constituents as you can without violating your basic business needs.

If I had to guess, you view yourself as having given the RV community a place to gather, socialize and learn, and in your opinion this is of value. Understandably if someone wants to enter the world you have created (user or advertiser) and benefit from it, they should contribute to your expenses, your vision and you should be rewarded for providing the venue.

On the other hand, from the perspective of many of the participants who make this a great place to come by virtue of committing their stories, pictures, knowledge, effort and organizational skills, they collectively have as much to do with the success of the site as the guy who organized and developed it.

For now there will continue to be the tension between the creator and the contributors. At some point the site will either attain significant additional value thanks to your creative and organizational efforts that there will be no question that you are due appropriate compensation, or the community will move on to something else that better meets their needs.

Whichever way it turns out, I am happy you have tackled the challenge.

Antony
 
$365 A Year ?!?

I read it three times before writing this. $365 a year ?!? That's such a no-brainer that I'm thinking of designing an aviation widget just so I can advertise it here. Then my plane would be a test platform and be tax deductible.

Look...any company that doesn't advertise here for $365 a year is demonstrating they are too stupid for me to patronize.

Thanks Doug,
 
tomcostanza said:
I read it three times before writing this. $365 a year ?!? That's such a no-brainer that I'm thinking of designing an aviation widget just so I can advertise it here. Then my plane would be a test platform and be tax deductible.

Look...any company that doesn't advertise here for $365 a year is demonstrating they are too stupid for me to patronize.

Thanks Doug,
Click to expand...

Have you actually looked at the real estate you'll be buying with your $365. I suggest you go here to take a peek. Here's the DAR LIST for example:

http://www.vansairforce.net/dar.htm

By the way are you interested in a bridge in San Francisco I have for sale.:)
 
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Captain Avgas said:
Have you actually looked at the real estate you'll be buying with your $365. I suggest you go here to take a peek. Here's the DAR LIST for example:

http://www.vansairforce.net/dar.htm

By the way are you interested in a bridge in San Francisco I have for sale.:)
Click to expand...


If you've actually got a nice bridge in San Francisco for sale (which I highly doubt), then please let us all know the specifics....

Other wise, I fail to see your point..

L.Adamson
 
Not sure I agree here.

aparchment said:
I enjoy your site Doug, and I am grateful that you constructed, maintain and host it. However for me the site is more about the entertainment value than the practical contribution to building and completing my airplane. My impression is that this site is geared more toward those flying than building. This doesn't bother me since it is inspiring, and I plan to join the ranks of those flying before long.
Click to expand...

I think that I used this site almost as much during build as I do now. I just post more now. :p
While building I did a lot of searches to get previously posted information, there is a lot of that. I did ask a few questions when I couldn't find what I needed or couldn't understand what I found.:confused:
Now that I am flying, I am trying to pay back to the community by providing my humble opinion. Also I have more time to just socialize now.:):D

But now a question for Doug about the group buy. I was very interested when the group buy was underway for Garmin 396/496 GPS. Now I know that Garmin is an advertiser, but as the group buy was proceeding we didn't know where the items were going to be purchased from until the end. I don't think that the person the the Garmin product was purchased through advertises here.
Garmin made the same amount of money, no matter where the units were purchased, the supplier made a large sale at a discount, but didn't help pay for this site. I guess I don't see how the rules for group buy are working here. I can get kind of complicated.
By the way I don't see any problem, if before anyone starts a group buy that they would need to get your permission on the item before proceeding.

Just random thoughts, Kent
 
kentb said:
But now a question for Doug about the group buy. I was very interested when the group buy was underway for Garmin 396/496 GPS. Now I know that Garmin is an advertiser, but as the group buy was proceeding we didn't know where the items were going to be purchased from until the end. I don't think that the person the the Garmin product was purchased through advertises here.
Garmin made the same amount of money, no matter where the units were purchased, the supplier made a large sale at a discount, but didn't help pay for this site. I guess I don't see how the rules for group buy are working here.
Click to expand...
Kent,

Unfortunately, due to Garmin's policies the vendor asked not to be identified publicly. Hopefully Garmin will change their policy so we could have offered the group buy to some of Doug's vendors.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
L.Adamson said:
If you've actually got a nice bridge in San Francisco for sale (which I highly doubt), then please let us all know the specifics....

Other wise, I fail to see your point..

L.Adamson
Click to expand...

$365 buys you a site in the swamp (the DAR LIST). That's the point friend. You got excited about the price before you looked at the location.
 
Captain Avgas said:
$365 buys you a site in the swamp (the DAR LIST). That's the point friend. You got excited about the price before you looked at the location.
Click to expand...

Bob, I believe you might have misunderstood the purpose of my reply. That 'in the swamp' location would give that company the go-ahead to do a group buy any time they please. As an advertiser, they could also send in press releases that would be posted front and center on the front page.

I apologize if I didn't make myself more clear in that earlier thread.

b,
d
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Bob, I believe you might have misunderstood the purpose of my reply. That 'in the swamp' location would give that company the go-ahead to do a group buy any time they please. As an advertiser, they could also send in press releases that would be posted front and center on the front page.

I apologize if I didn't make myself more clear in that earlier thread.

b,
d
Click to expand...

Wow, the 10th page of this! I wonder how many we'd generate if the new policy wasn't "the vendor has to advertise here to be qualified for a forum-coordinated group buy," but "you have to pony up the $25 donation to participate in a group buy" instead!
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Bob, I believe you might have misunderstood the purpose of my reply. That 'in the swamp' location would give that company the go-ahead to do a group buy any time they please. As an advertiser, they could also send in press releases that would be posted front and center on the front page.

I apologize if I didn't make myself more clear in that earlier thread.

b,
d
Click to expand...

And of course, the "DAR List", used as Bob's example, is the least appealing of numerous locations that were mentioned in the reply. In addition, all advertisers go into the advertising index, which is a click away on the front page.

I use the "index" quite often, when a builder calls for a link, regarding info I've told them about. An example is "Fairings ETC", in which the ad generated two sales this last weekend.

L.Adamson
 
An outsider's view

Well, I'm a member of VAF and I probably won't even build an RV (for my first(?)). Is this site worth $25 (at least once) to a non-RV builder? Yes. Why?...

It's not a Yahoo! list. That's all it takes. Exchanging emails is so 1985. 20+ years on it's important to have a consolidated, easy to navigate and searchable *database* of information and inspiration for whichever subject you decide to inundate yourself with. In this case it's the RV line of aircraft. The amount of traffic here would overwhelm most users, including myself, in a usenet style venue.

OK, that's not what we're talking about here so back on topic... Why is it important for DR to have group buys that only include his advertisers?

Bandwidth ain't free. TINSTAAFL. He's laying out money for this site to exist, he's gotta get his.

As an outsider, I fully support DR's decision. I knew he was going to take some flack for it and I'm frankly surprised there wasn't more. I'm still shocked the VAF classifieds are completely free to all, even those that haven't ponied up the $25. Kudos, sir.

I mean, after all... he gave up a rewarding career to run this site for us... just surfing, blogging, modding and flying all day... HEY WAIT! I'm jealous! Seriously though, if it works as a business model then ALL of this information (including this thread) will be archived for new builders 10+ years from now. You simply don't get that from an email list.

Doug is building what I see as the most comprehensive database of builder information in the world of EX-AB. It's about RV's so that's the group that benefits the most but EVERY group of builders will benefit from this site now and in the future.
 
Hey wait a minute!

Tongue in cheek alert on

Hey wait a minute, is Mel a paid advertiser on this site? If not, should he be selling decals here? :)

Tongue in cheek alert off


Just kidding, of course. But I am surprised someone hasn't brought this up yet in a serious fashion.

Onward into the fog!

Regards to all and the choices Doug has made!

Love it or leave it! Or at least live with it.
 
Put me back in!

<snip> I can't believe $1 per day is too much to ask of a company in exchange for continually spreading the word of a group buy to over 21,000 people (6,700+ registered forum users and an additional 15,000+ non-registered 'lurkers'). They would spend a lot more than this on any mass mailing.

This arrangement would also include a daily plug at the top of the site during the group buy 'window'.

Again, I appreciate your input.

Kindest,
Doug
Click to expand...

Doug I dropped out of the hi-visibility adds because it was not generating enough to justify the expense each month. My stuff doesn't cost much at the individual level, we are primarily B2B, but are thankful for other orders too.

I was unaware of the advertisers index option and would like to be listed there

I love this site and have a lot of fun on it too!

I do get business from here as incidentals to tech posts and a few classifieds.

Put my old add up in the advertisers index and send me a bill for 1 year.

I do feel like I should be contributing sumpthin.

Group buys don't interest me much, but I sure hope everyone figures out that mountains don't look the same from the one direction as they do from the other.

Your site is a mountain and I like looking at it.

Thanks for being here.
 
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