Many 10 questions

[RNB]

I sold my C172 yesterday, expect to be able to pick up a 2009 RV10 next week. I am trying to read and chair fly, likely getting to ahead of myself with questions, but want to ask anyway.

I've asked for and received a phases of flight (pitch/RPM/MP) chart and have an idea of how things will go for a landing. This is mainly what I am chair flying (it is going very well...). For my PPL training I recall being blown away watching and learning other people fly a 172, specifically recall three movements on the trim wheel for steep turns good as a rule of thumb, and one for first time flaps are put in AGL. I'm not picking up any great pointer watching tubes. Are there any with regards to trim for various phases of flight? I know I can learn this over time, just trying to not spend 10 hours struggling and then be shown the right way.

On trim, I am VERY surprised to see left sided pilots reach over with their right hand to activate trim. Is this common or best practice?

My yoke has pull to talk button and electric trim in the center on top. There are two other unlabeled buttons on top of the yoke. Any guess what is common? AP cut off/CWS is my best idea for one, not sure of the other.

The yoke when moved all the way right hits the throttle if pulled out. When moved all the way forward it hits the panel. Unlikely to ever travel that far in flight. Thoughts? Is this a construction error? I read in a recently revised yoke forum topic that one style of throttle makes you cut off the metal stalk to make sure all of the stuff clears path of travel after installation.

The. prebuy inspection brought up a few things that likely needed some attention to, it is a bit overwhelming trying to make good decisions related to financial costs and benefits. With all the aftermarket options (antis plat aero as an example) how do you decide? I was maybe foolish going overboard as an anxious new pilot owner with the plane I just sold, do not want to repeat. Things I will need to make decisions on include the following:
1. LED exterior lights. Some work required but most of it optional.
2. Mags were inspected but not overhauled or IRANd. Slick. Kind of a lot to absorb in deciding how to handle these going forward. Keep? Exchange one for modern mag? TMI online
3. Tie downs? Are there anchor points under the wings or do I need the antis plat type product that screws in a jack point?
4. I think I read of someone jacking there plane up and it falling and causing damage. How to prevent this happening?
5. I've ordered the construction manual. Any idea on what stuff I should have on hand such as extra screws/lubricants/spark plug washers? I'd like to go into first inspection with everything on hand in advance.
6. Are there available lube charts with locations and proper stuff to grease or lube with?
7. Gust locks? Home hangar will be good, but what about for travel? What do you do/use?

Other: My BFR is due in August. I assume moving to a RV10 requires high performance endorsement. Does this count as a new rating such that I do not need a BFR sign off or must I also have the BFR signature?

For the constant speed prop, move left to right for decreasing power, right to left for increasing power. Is this gospel? I had someone tell me not to worry about it.

I'll add more as I continue on...thanks for any feedback.

 

[howardtlcc]

A HP endorsement is NOT a Flight Review (and does not count as one). But there is no reason the training could not be combined with a Flight Review. You would need both endorsements in your logbook when done.

 

[8MikeXray]

I would highly recommend finding a RV10 experienced CFI and flying your first 20 hrs with them. Relax, it’s just a single engine fixed gear aircraft.
As you enter the experimental world you will find many things builders do to their aircraft that are non standard practices…switch placement, etc
Many times accidents/incidents are caused by non standard layouts. Unfortunately this is the world of experimental aircraft. I would highly recommend you find a top notch RV builder or A&P mechanic and go thru the entire aircraft, nose to tail and verify every system and its operation in your new RV10.

 

[D-Dubya]

Wow. That's a lot of questions. I'll try and tackle some of them.

Landing / Trim - Why don't you talk to the previous owner to see how he handled this? With electric trim on the stick, the questions about which hand or how many turns of the wheel are somewhat moot. Most people have a typical power reduction they use in the pattern and how they set up for landing, but this can vary from pilot to pilot and plane to plane, even with the same model.

Unlabeled Stick Buttons - Everything is supposed to be labeled, even if it's INOP or not used. Again, what did the previous owner say (assuming he's available)? A/P disconnect is common, but I wouldn't guess. If they're not currently utilized, you can turn them into whatever you want. However, if you're not familiar with the wiring schematic or wiring in general, it's best to get knowledgeable help before proceeding. Letting all the smoke out of the wires can get very expensive.

Yoke Travel - Assuming you mean the stick hits the throttle and the panel. That's not what it's supposed to do. You can adjust the travel limits with the rod ends, but again, enlist some help with this. It's possible you may have to trim the stick length, as some stick grips require this depending on how they're configured. But that could become a pretty involved job, as you may have to shorten wire runs and re-terminate connections.

Lights - I would want them all to work. You never know when you'll need to land somewhere later than expected and wish you had all those lights working so you can see and be seen.

Mags - Slick mags (depending on model) often have a 500 hour rebuild inspection required that costs close to what a new mag costs. Many experimental owners will change over to an Emag, electronic ignition, or just replace the mag in kind at 500 hours. You'll need to look at the engine log book to see where you are on the timeline. There are pros and cons to each choice. You could easily spend hours researching this to decide what best fits your needs.

Jack Points / Tie-downs - There are aftermarket products that utilize the existing tie-down point on the wing as a jack point. Yes, you can cause the plane to fall and do damage. Most of the aftermarket products are designed to minimize that risk. Do a search on the forum and you'll find lots of info and opinions here. The same goes for gust locks. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Spare Parts - Everyone seems to have their own system with this. The clear slide-out drawer chests (Lowe's, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, etc.) work well when labeled clearly. I have three of them full of bolts, screws, washers, spark plug gaskets, O-rings, fuel sump drains, etc. Even when I don't use them, other people at the airport can use a part in a pinch. I've helped a few experimentals that landed and needed some parts as well. If you can find another RV-10 owner (or several) and use their condition inspection as a starting point, then you can add specific part numbers and lubricant types to the list. I also write torque values on my CI list. Even if you have an A&P perform the CI (legally required since you're not the original builder with a Repairman Certificate), you can use your list to help the A&P. You have an easy reference if you're doing typical maintenance on the plane (allowed). But again, if you're not sure what you're doing, enlist some qualified help before proceeding.

Lastly, I concur that you should find a CFI with RV-10 experience. It will almost certainly be time and money well spent. You're not flying a demanding aircraft like an F4U Corsair or a Pitts, but some good training will help to calm your worries and may even get you better insurance rates.

 

[71459]

You're not flying a demanding aircraft like an F4U Corsair or a Pitts,

Off topic but, interestingly I had the opportunity to fly a single place Pitts one time. No dual or in-flight checkout was possible, which of course was quite concerning. Funny thing was, it was EASIER to fly than my RV-4. It's a "draggy" airframe, so the speed and decent control is instantaneous. Makes things easier..

 

[RNB]

I would highly recommend finding a RV10 experienced CFI and flying your first 20 hrs with them. Relax, it’s just a single engine fixed gear aircraft.
As you enter the experimental world you will find many things builders do to their aircraft that are non standard practices…switch placement, etc
Many times accidents/incidents are caused by non standard layouts. Unfortunately this is the world of experimental aircraft. I would highly recommend you find a top notch RV builder or A&P mechanic and go thru the entire aircraft, nose to tail and verify every system and its operation in your new RV10.

Thanks, I have someone with lots of teaching time and maybe an acceptable amount of RV10 time.

 

[RNB]

Wow. That's a lot of questions. I'll try and tackle some of them.

Landing / Trim - Why don't you talk to the previous owner to see how he handled this? With electric trim on the stick, the questions about which hand or how many turns of the wheel are somewhat moot. Most people have a typical power reduction they use in the pattern and how they set up for landing, but this can vary from pilot to pilot and plane to plane, even with the same model.

Unlabeled Stick Buttons - Everything is supposed to be labeled, even if it's INOP or not used. Again, what did the previous owner say (assuming he's available)? A/P disconnect is common, but I wouldn't guess. If they're not currently utilized, you can turn them into whatever you want. However, if you're not familiar with the wiring schematic or wiring in general, it's best to get knowledgeable help before proceeding. Letting all the smoke out of the wires can get very expensive.

Yoke Travel - Assuming you mean the stick hits the throttle and the panel. That's not what it's supposed to do. You can adjust the travel limits with the rod ends, but again, enlist some help with this. It's possible you may have to trim the stick length, as some stick grips require this depending on how they're configured. But that could become a pretty involved job, as you may have to shorten wire runs and re-terminate connections.

Lights - I would want them all to work. You never know when you'll need to land somewhere later than expected and wish you had all those lights working so you can see and be seen.

Mags - Slick mags (depending on model) often have a 500 hour rebuild inspection required that costs close to what a new mag costs. Many experimental owners will change over to an Emag, electronic ignition, or just replace the mag in kind at 500 hours. You'll need to look at the engine log book to see where you are on the timeline. There are pros and cons to each choice. You could easily spend hours researching this to decide what best fits your needs.

Jack Points / Tie-downs - There are aftermarket products that utilize the existing tie-down point on the wing as a jack point. Yes, you can cause the plane to fall and do damage. Most of the aftermarket products are designed to minimize that risk. Do a search on the forum and you'll find lots of info and opinions here. The same goes for gust locks. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Spare Parts - Everyone seems to have their own system with this. The clear slide-out drawer chests (Lowe's, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, etc.) work well when labeled clearly. I have three of them full of bolts, screws, washers, spark plug gaskets, O-rings, fuel sump drains, etc. Even when I don't use them, other people at the airport can use a part in a pinch. I've helped a few experimentals that landed and needed some parts as well. If you can find another RV-10 owner (or several) and use their condition inspection as a starting point, then you can add specific part numbers and lubricant types to the list. I also write torque values on my CI list. Even if you have an A&P perform the CI (legally required since you're not the original builder with a Repairman Certificate), you can use your list to help the A&P. You have an easy reference if you're doing typical maintenance on the plane (allowed). But again, if you're not sure what you're doing, enlist some qualified help before proceeding.

Lastly, I concur that you should find a CFI with RV-10 experience. It will almost certainly be time and money well spent. You're not flying a demanding aircraft like an F4U Corsair or a Pitts, but some good training will help to calm your worries and may even get you better insurance rates.

There is a broker running interference for the owner, I have not been able to get through. I did talk to the builder though! Had not thought to ask him the trim questions.

Broker said the buttons do nothing.

Yoke, I'll have to look more into the travel stuff when I get the plans and get it to another shop. I do not understand rod ends comments yet.

All of the lights do work. Some look bad. Some are not LED. I am a fan of high vis lights.

Have CFI

 

[RNB]

A couple of you have reached out with offers of talking on the phone, will reach out later, have company right now.

 

[BobTurner]

I think others have covered most things, except: Do you plan to carry insurance? If yes, the insurance company will surely require YY hours of dual instruction, with a cfi who has xx hours of rv10 time. (YY seems to range from 2 to 10 hours, while 25 or more is typically required for xx). You need to call an insurance broker today, before they all leave for Oshkosh (may already be too late), and get a general feel for what will be needed. I use, and recommend, Jenny at Gallagher (used to be Nationaire); they advertise here on VAF, give them a call for a chat. With zero CS prop time be prepared for sticker shock.

 

[BobTurner]

I think others have covered most things, except: Do you plan to carry insurance? If yes, the insurance company will surely require YY hours of dual instruction, with a cfi who has xx hours of rv10 time. (YY seems to range from 2 to 10 hours, while 25 or more is typically required for xx). You need to call an insurance broker today, before they all leave for Oshkosh (may already be too late), and get a general feel for what will be needed. I use, and recommend, Jenny at Gallagher (used to be Nationaire); they advertise here on VAF, give them a call for a chat. With zero CS prop time be prepared for sticker shock.

Additional thoughts:
1. Who signed off the initial airworthiness inspection? The stick should never hit anything in the cockpit.
2. Slick mags are commonly sent out for inspection every 500 hours. Cost is about half of new ones. Consider eectronic ignition but that may also require a dual electrical system for safety. Study options carefully.
3. Get W&B data from current owner, check it, if you can borrow some scales. Some -10’s are nose-heavy when flown solo, require a few gallons of water in the baggage area. Many -10’s can go aft of the aft cg limit when loaded to the full 2700 lbs, be careful. Also all 10’s, when loaded near either limit at takeoff, will move toward (or past) the cg limit as you burn gas. It is imperative to check CG in the landing configuration as well as before takeoff.
4. Your new plane should have threaded holes for tie down rings 2/3 of the way out toward the wingtips, as well as near the tail. The rings themselves came with the kit, ask the owner for them (if lost, replacements can easily be found). I also fly with the tiedown rings off, I think I go 1/4 knot faster (!!).
5. See if a towbar is included. I use a ‘Bogart’ bar. As an added plus, with a simple modification it can also do duty as a gust lock. NEVER walk away from your 10 without a gust lock on the rudder. Unlike your 172 the rudder on a -10 will easily thrash about in any breeze (or prop wash).
As others have said, you’ll need a ‘high performance’ endorsement and a ‘Flight Review’, two different things. But they can be done at the same time. But first, call Jenny, today.

 

[D-Dubya]

If I might add another comment or two...

Since you're unfamiliar with how RV's are put together, you would be doing yourself a big favor by getting at least one of Vic Syracuse's books on RV aircraft. They are easy to read, have lots of good illustrations, and they'll help you to better understand the systems and terminology. They're available through the EAA Store and many of the typical aviation sources. Even if you decided that you were never ever going to work on your plane, those books give you a better understanding of what's good and what's not so good with operating and maintaining an RV.

And I originally misunderstood your lighting comment. Lighting doesn't have to be LED to work well, but there are many benefits to having LEDs. I'm a big fan of LEDs, but I have a mix of original Whelen strobes, nav lights, and LED landing lights. They all work just fine.

 

[Jjackh10]

⦁ When increasing power, increase the rpm first and then the manifold pressure​

⦁ When decreasing power, decrease the manifold pressure first and then decrease the rpm​

​

Is this recommendation driven by the "don't run over square" wisdom? I've never understood that logic.

 

[Jonathan Alvord]

Im not goin to answer your questions because they already have been answered, but I would highly suggest finding an RV 10 pilot to fly with at the very least. Insurance will likely require Transition training or 25-50 hrs in the Make and Model before being covered. The RV 10 is a huge step up from the 172.

Jon
RV7A 1000hrs
RV10 200+ hrs

 

[rocketman1988]

Please take the time to get some real transition training! The RV-10 is quite a performance jump from a 172, and while not difficult to fly, can be a bit overwhelming.

GET SOME TRAINING.

 

[RNB]

I think others have covered most things, except: Do you plan to carry insurance? If yes, the insurance company will surely require YY hours of dual instruction, with a cfi who has xx hours of rv10 time. (YY seems to range from 2 to 10 hours, while 25 or more is typically required for xx). You need to call an insurance broker today, before they all leave for Oshkosh (may already be too late), and get a general feel for what will be needed. I use, and recommend, Jenny at Gallagher (used to be Nationaire); they advertise here on VAF, give them a call for a chat. With zero CS prop time be prepared for sticker shock.

I disagree on the others have covered things...but a phone call helped.

Last night I called one of the folks that messaged me directly, talked for a while. I'd wanted to learn about trim settings, if there were some magical understanding to know before getting in the plane. I guess not, as a home built they can be different with switches and motors so there is not a commonality amongst planes. I will just need to learn on my own.

I learned that the plane is stable when jacked in the air, not to be concerned with knocking the plane over.

We talked about a couple gust lock solutions. Caller was to send me photos of what he does, something homemade where yoke is secured to the pilots seat when put all the way forward. I think something reaches all the way down to the rudder pedals. I'll look at the photo, evaluate that, see what comes with the plane.

Tie downs also talked about on the phone, he uses a home made product but removes when flying.

I've only come across and paid attention to mag solutions casually. Now it is more important. We talked about various options, some pros and cons of each. Caller talked about speed and fuel flows he sees. I am not sure what I will do, a lot depends upon money. Slick overhaul or exchange seems cheapest, might just stick with that, keep learning more and consider future upgrades.

We did not talk about if there were an available lube chart with proper product to use. I will likely start one for myself, perhaps going through the manual and/or jotting down things people mention.


I don't think anyone talked about the relative importance of order of changes for power/prop/mixture.
I don't think anyone talked about the cost/benefit decision matrix for anything.
I don't think anyone mentioned anything about antis plat aero products-the need for them or not.
I don't think anyone has talked about a best trimming practice, as to it being appropriate to reach over and trim with right hand.
I don't think anyone answered about what things to have on hand with regards to spare parts. I think I will go through the build manual and try to decide for myself. For my 172 annual they replaced a bunch of things, had an itemized list of them on the receipt. Some of those things had to be ordered, delayed work being performed. These kinds of things I want to have on hand. I'll try to build such a list for myself. Spark plugs, washers for plugs, fuel filter washers, perhaps some extra screws used for holding trim in place.

 

[woxofswa]

Don't overthink it. The airplane has no nasty habits. Ballpark trim for takeoff is good pilotage but the airplane will tell you what it wants and good pilots respond instinctively without thinking about it. Like most well-designed airplanes, it is best flown by feel rather than rote memorization.
Considering its amazing capability, it’s the easiest airplane to fly I've ever flown (out of 50 or so). Don't land hard on the nosewheel and don't violate the flap speeds. Easy peasy. Just don't fly it alone until you fully understand how your particular avionics setup operates.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

I will just need to learn on my own.

And that is the key to answering nearly all your questions.

Trying to anticipate every detail about your RV-10 experience before you even have the aircraft is merely a way to generate stomach juices and is ultimately non-productive. You will learn what you need to know as you and your -10 become acquainted. It'll happen in its own time, no need to force the issues.

Get insurance and transition training and most of your operational questions will be answered. Make connections with other RV owners and your maintenance questions will be answered as they occur.

Relax and enjoy the journey!

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Rudder gust lock. The rudder horn type seem to fail (a lot of lever arm from the rudder). This is simple and bullet proof.

Practice your bowline knots (what you use to attach the line around the elevator hinge). Leave the elevators in full nose up position using the seat belt wrapped around the stick. This also locks up the ailerons.

Pad the piece of angle that goes on the rudder trailing edge.
Carl

 

[Auburntsts]

Well are lot of your questions are subjective and typically you’ll end up with a mix of answers that will contradict each other.

Trim— a lot of us have trim controls on the stick. It is less common to have panel mounted trim controls in a 10.
AntiSplat items— he makes some good stuff. I have his oil filter and prop wrench’s and gust lock. They are not necessary but like most specialized items they can make things eaiser.
Spares— I travel with a descent tool kit and a small bag of hardware: #6, #8, #10 screws, AN 3 bolts, nuts and washers, axle nut cotter pin, safety wire, zip ties, and some other odds and ends. As for the hangar, look at the plans and build up a bench stock of common fasteners (screws, bolts, washer, nuts, and cotter pins) , safety wire, grease for the gear hub, grease for the axels, grease for the prop hub, anti-seize compound, locktite 567, Red RTV, etc, etc.

i also suggest getting a set of safety wire pliers, inch-pound and ft- pound torque wrenches, and a bore scope which is handy for looking at nooks and crannies all over the airframe and not only the interior of the engine.

 

[BobTurner]

Trim. Doesn’t your 172 have a wheel that you reach over to for manual trim? The stock -10 is electric trim only. Some builders put the trim switch in the center panel so it can be used from either seat. I actually have 3 trim controls: left stick, right-center panel (there have been some inadvertent trim applications from right seat passengers resting a book on the stick control there) for right seat flying, plus my Trio Pro also runs the electric trim. For any multiple input scenarios you’ll need relays, switches, or other logic to prevent accidentally applying nose up and nose down simultaneously and tripping the CB or fuse.
Gust lock/tow bar. You need a tow bar. The free castering nose wheel will go ‘hard over’ if you attempt to push the plane backwards without steering. Unlike your 172 most people are not heavy enough to raise the nose by leaning on the aft fuselage. The tow bar made by Bogart is popular. Attach two pieces (I used hose clamps) of aluminum stock to the front of the tow bar (away from the handle). Stick the front of the bar into the foot well, aluminum pieces over the rudder bars but under the brake pedals. Lower the handle so the stick goes thru the tow bar. Push the handle firmly against the seat back, forcing the rudder pedals forward. Use the lap belt to keep it there. Use the lap belt from the other seat to pull the stick back into the ‘V’ of the tow bar. All three control axes are now immobilized. Search these forums to find pictures.
PS Did you call Jenny yet? Most likely you don’t want to move the airplane without insurance.