What's new
Van's Air Force

The definitive Van's Aircraft support community! Buying, building or flying an RV? Join our exclusive family of mentors and enthusiasts!

Louise Hose's report on Van's engineering forum

Nuisance

Nuisance

Well Known Member
Patron
First, thank you Louise for another excellent report.

I found one item especially concerning.
  • They expect most personally built RV-15s to be licensed as E-LSA. Anyone seeking an airworthiness certificate under Experimental/Amateur-Built (E-AB) category will have to do their own National Kit Evaluation Team (NKET) checklist. The factory does not intend to seek FAA approval for the 51% rule. This is important information as many early builders are using flush, solid rivets instead of the factory-approved, round-head blind rivets along leading edges and elsewhere. Any deviation from factory instructions during the build will disqualify an aircraft from E-LSA status.
This is huge. We have been repeatedly told that the wing was designed with numerous access plate so that the portion ahead of the main spar could be flush riveted.

Also, those who fill the rivets to prevent water intrusion will be on their own for certification.

So, suddenly we are not building an experimental aircraft, we are building an E-LSA.
 
Question/s then..,

1) Does E-LSA limit the use of the aircraft in any way?

2) Does E-LSA require anything different to get the airworthiness certification?

3) I had contemplated filling pulled rivets, why is this now not ok?

Anyone else have any concerns about this E-LSA designation?
 
Utah-Jay said:
Question/s then..,

1) Does E-LSA limit the use of the aircraft in any way?

2) Does E-LSA require anything different to get the airworthiness certification?

3) I had contemplated filling pulled rivets, why is this now not ok?

Anyone else have any concerns about this E-LSA designation?
Click to expand...
I haven't been through filling out the form myself but Paul said it only took him a couple of hours for the F-1 Rocket. He also said he predicts no problem with us builders demonstrating our >51% involvement. The main difference, as I understand it, is that the "manufacturer" of an E-LSA will be Van's Aircraft. The manufacturer of my plane will be Louise Hose and Paul Dye. I then have to ask, which name will be of greater re-sale value?

I don't know, but I doubt that filling rivets will disqualify a plane from E-LSA. Painting it doesn't.

BTW, the review they are referring to is at: https://avbrief.com/update-on-the-vans-rv-15-project/
 
Last edited:
Nuisance said:
First, thank you Louise for another excellent report.

I found one item especially concerning.
  • They expect most personally built RV-15s to be licensed as E-LSA. Anyone seeking an airworthiness certificate under Experimental/Amateur-Built (E-AB) category will have to do their own National Kit Evaluation Team (NKET) checklist. The factory does not intend to seek FAA approval for the 51% rule. This is important information as many early builders are using flush, solid rivets instead of the factory-approved, round-head blind rivets along leading edges and elsewhere. Any deviation from factory instructions during the build will disqualify an aircraft from E-LSA status.
This is huge. We have been repeatedly told that the wing was designed with numerous access plate so that the portion ahead of the main spar could be flush riveted.

Also, those who fill the rivets to prevent water intrusion will be on their own for certification.

So, suddenly we are not building an experimental aircraft, we are building an E-LSA.
Click to expand...

You still can flush rivet as you choose; that hasn’t changed at all. Deviating from the plans has always kept you in the EAB category and excluded you from the E-LSA category for any build.

There should be no issues with 51%…unless you have someone else build it.
 
Utah-Jay said:
1) Does E-LSA limit the use of the aircraft in any way?
Click to expand...
No. Same rules as E-AB. (Anything you may see about restrictions on LSAs in IMC only ever applied to factory-built S-LSAs, not kit-built E-LSAs.) E-LSA used to offer more flexibility around non-builders doing their own condition inspection with the LSRI/LSRM classes, but MOSAIC extended that to E-ABs too.

Utah-Jay said:
2) Does E-LSA require anything different to get the airworthiness certification?
Click to expand...
In short - for an E-AB you need to prove to the FAA's satisfaction that you complied with the 51% Rule; for an E-LSA, there is no 51% rule, but you need to prove to the FAA's satisfaction that you followed the kit assembly instructions exactly.

raabs said:
Which has more value? Think there would be a difference?
Click to expand...
I'd be surprised if there were a difference. For the RV-12, E-AB examples tend to be worth a lot less than E-LSAs, but there's a confounding factor - most E-AB RV-12s are built with major changes (like alternate engines) which reduce their interest to most buyers.
 
Louise Hose said:
I haven't been through filling out the form myself but Paul said it only took him a couple of hours for the F-1 Rocket. He also said he predicts no problem with us builders demonstrating our >51% involvement. The main difference, as I understand it, is that the "manufacturer" of an E-LSA will be Van's Aircraft. The manufacturer of my plane will be Louise Hose and Paul Dye. I then have to ask, which name will be of greater re-sale value?

I don't know, but I doubt that filling rivets will disqualify a plane from E-LSA. Painting it doesn't.

BTW, the review they are referring to is at: https://avbrief.com/update-on-the-vans-rv-15-project/
Click to expand...

If it's so easy, then why wouldn't Van's do it and give us a choice?

This is just another example of the "New Van's" vs the "Old Van's"
 
I can't help but laugh at the irony. The same people who have the confidence and experience to re-engineer the airplane, would be scared of filling out a checklist?

None of this should be a surprise. Van's has explained how integral MOSAIC and LSA designations have been to the design and business case for the RV-15. This can have a huge impact on things, but really shouldn't hurt anyone. I have encouraged discussion on the RV-15 kit and impacts from ELSA/MOSAIC but responses were generally that it was foolish to even think about. Now, we panic! :ROFLMAO:



Utah-Jay said:
Question/s then..,

1) Does E-LSA limit the use of the aircraft in any way?
Click to expand...

ELSA does not limit the use of the aircraft in any way.

Utah-Jay said:
2) Does E-LSA require anything different to get the airworthiness certification?
Click to expand...

It requires that the aircraft be built exactly to the KIA. It requires that ALL materials for the aircraft be purchased from the kit manufacturer. It requires that you sign an affidavit attesting to both of those conditions having been met.


Utah-Jay said:
3) I had contemplated filling pulled rivets, why is this now not ok?
Click to expand...

This is still ok. It could spark another pedantic eternal aviation debate, but filling rivets is going to be fine.

Utah-Jay said:
Anyone else have any concerns about this E-LSA designation?
Click to expand...

People are going to have all kinds of concerns once they decide to understand it. Going ELSA or EAB really shouldn't be any big deal. Nobody asked about the benefits of ELSA so I guess we leave that part alone until the sky stops falling.

Specific to some of your posts, you have been out buying bits and bobs to customize your airplane. Those brakes you ordered, if you put them on while building you'll need to go EAB. If you decide to go ELSA, leave them in the box and install them after your AW certificate is issued.
 
As others have correctly stated, completing the Fabrication and Assembly Check List will be no big deal and if no commercial builder assistance is used, there will be absolutely no problem showing compliance with the “major portion “ rule.
This will be required because without Vans having the FAA evaluation team come and do an on-site audit of the kit ( usually takes 2-3 days and I think at considerable expense) the kit will not be listed on the FAA approved kit list (a kit being on the list means it is pre approved to meet the requirement).
This will be no different than the RV-12, of which many have been built as E-AB.
I think Rian did a poor job conveying this detail by adding a doom and gloom undertone, in light of the fact that they have added details to the design that accommodate disqualifying modifications.
The presentation mentioned that the fuselage kit will include a blank instrument panel. This won’t likely be necessary for a purely E-LSA build because a finished (or nearly so) panel will be provided, so to me it is another indicator that they aren’t totally ignoring people who choose to deviate from E-LSA.
Link to checklist example if anyone is curious
 
I just talked with Brian Hamilton and have asked that the "controversial" bullet be changed to:

  • They expect most personally built RV-15s to be licensed as E-LSA. Anyone seeking an airworthiness certificate under EAB (Experimental-Amateur Built) will have to do their own National Kit Evaluation Team (NKET: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentID/1041531) checklist. The factory does not intend to seek FAA-approval for the 51% rule. This is important information because any deviation from factory instructions during the build will disqualify a plane from E-LSA status. ADDED NOTE: Brian Hamilton clarified that Van’s Engineering Team is developing a list of accepted alteration and the use of recessed, solid rivets on leading edges will be an accepted alteration. Using alternate brake systems will also likely be on the acceptable list.
 
Louise Hose said:
I just talked with Brian Hamilton and have asked that the "controversial" bullet be changed to:

  • They expect most personally built RV-15s to be licensed as E-LSA. Anyone seeking an airworthiness certificate under EAB (Experimental-Amateur Built) will have to do their own National Kit Evaluation Team (NKET: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentID/1041531) checklist. The factory does not intend to seek FAA-approval for the 51% rule. This is important information because any deviation from factory instructions during the build will disqualify a plane from E-LSA status. ADDED NOTE: Brian Hamilton clarified that Van’s Engineering Team is developing a list of accepted alteration and the use of recessed, solid rivets on leading edges will be an accepted alteration. Using alternate brake systems will also likely be on the acceptable list.
Click to expand...
Thanks for passing information, it's much appreciated
 
Louise Hose said:
I just talked with Brian Hamilton and have asked that the "controversial" bullet be changed to:

  • They expect most personally built RV-15s to be licensed as E-LSA. Anyone seeking an airworthiness certificate under EAB (Experimental-Amateur Built) will have to do their own National Kit Evaluation Team (NKET: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentID/1041531) checklist. The factory does not intend to seek FAA-approval for the 51% rule. This is important information because any deviation from factory instructions during the build will disqualify a plane from E-LSA status. ADDED NOTE: Brian Hamilton clarified that Van’s Engineering Team is developing a list of accepted alteration and the use of recessed, solid rivets on leading edges will be an accepted alteration. Using alternate brake systems will also likely be on the acceptable list.
Click to expand...
Probably Brian Hickman?
 
Louise Hose said:
  • Van’s Engineering Team is developing a list of accepted alteration and the use of recessed, solid rivets on leading edges will be an accepted alteration. Using alternate brake systems will also likely be on the acceptable list.
Click to expand...

Methinks this is a very smart thing to do, I wonder if the buyers/builders could have input as to the alterations they would like to have?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top