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LiFePo battery?

Manual information

This is a duplicate post that I posted on another thread here on this forum but I thought it puts some good information as your finger tips and I wanted to cover my bases. :)

Just thought I would put some links in here so you can easily review what the manufacturer's manuals are putting out there for technical data. We are working with Bob Nuckolls among other professionals to provide the information that is geared toward aircraft as well as power sports so you can make an educated choice in which battery is best for you.

This is for Shorai: http://shoraipower.com/installation-guides

This is for Ballistic's: they don't have a manual that I could find after searching their website, this is the most technical piece of data they have: http://www.ballisticparts.com/tech/charging.php

This is for EarthX:http://earthxmotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ETX_Manual_111017_G.pdf

We also have on the Experimental aircraft page, a direct comparison of the Odyssey battery and the EarthX battery so you can see for yourself the differences and what would be the best fit for your use. Sometimes we are better, and sometimes we are not, depending on the model and we list them all so you know what you are gaining or losing. Here is that link: http://earthxmotorsports.com/product-category/experimental-aircraft/
And I do realize we are a competitor of Shorai, but I can't help but point out they specifically point out in their warranty that use in aircraft is not covered.
Here's that link: http://shoraipower.com/Customer-Service.html

And this is a total plug for our batteries, I apologize in advance, but we are only patent pending technology battery in this market that has over discharge, over charge and cell balancing built into our battery. You do not need a special charger in order to balance the charge/discharge of the cells and this also ensures that while your charging system is charging the battery, it is doing so evenly. And if you read ALL of our competitor's warranties, if you over discharge or over charge their battery it is not covered. Other than cost, the other down fall of a lithium battery is they are much less tolerant to being over discharged or overcharged than a lead acid and doing it one time, you can kill the battery. This type of protection and safety built into our batteries was not an option in our opinion, but a requirement.

Kathy (EarthX)
 
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Thanks Louie for this detailed install description!

2004rav.jpg
 
Advice for the OSHKOSH air show

I was hoping for some input from people who have been at the Oshkosh air show in Oshkosh, WI as the floor plan is immense and I am not sure what would be the best location for our type of product, EarthX starter lithium batteries. I have called the show several times for help but as of yet, no reply. The price and sizes of the booths are all over the board so I appreciate your input. And places to stay too if you have any advice for that as well.

Thanks! Kathy
 
That's a really good question. It often seems booths are random in the buildings.

I wonder about being near a popular booth like Aircraft Spruce or SteinAir. Whether they would distract attention away from your booth or help add traffic.

I do think that inside one of the buildings would be good. People like to escape the sun and heat (and possibly rain) at times. You probably can't go too wrong with one of the main lettered buildings A, B, C, D alongside other companies that will be sure to draw traffic. Like the aforementioned ones along with other technology vendors like Grand Rapids Technology, Dynon, AFS, Vertical Power, etc. (Garmin has their own tent outside)

I'll have to drop by your booth when I'm there!

Regards,
Russ
 
I suspect that at this late in the game, you are going to be somewhat limited in what is available for booth space, as well as lodging.

I totally agree that a place in one of the big buildings is going to have great exposure, but it is also probably going to cost the most-----if available.

At least Hortons get together is free, and lots of availability still:D http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=112798
 
just make a drop in replacement for the PC680...

It sure would be nice to have a form factor that was a drop in swap for the standard PC680... I would find your booth wherever it was.
 
Yeah, you'd be the first powersports LiFePO battery vendor with a PC680 sized product and might grab some quick market share. :)
 
BTW, I received my EarthX ETX12A last week. I need to talk to customer service since I think they sent an empty plastic shell. Kidding! :)
 
EarthX Lithium said:
I was hoping for some input from people who have been at the Oshkosh air show in Oshkosh, WI as the floor plan is immense and I am not sure what would be the best location for our type of product, EarthX starter lithium batteries. I have called the show several times for help but as of yet, no reply. The price and sizes of the booths are all over the board so I appreciate your input. And places to stay too if you have any advice for that as well.

Thanks! Kathy
Click to expand...

Ya,,, If you made a drop in swap for the PC 680 I would buy one, otherwise I'm not messing with it, not for now anyway.
 
You wouldn't need a booth if you made a drop in replacement for the PC680. we would beat a path to YOUR door. And then you could afford any booth. :)

Bevan
 
exact PC680 form and OSHKOSH

Thank you all for the advice. We do have a wonderful dealer in Florida that sells our batteries that has these very awesome ultralight planes, http://www.evolutiontrikes.com/ that has offered to share their space with us in the ultralight hanger but it is so much smaller of a hanger with only a few booths (like 40 of them maybe) that I didn't know if I would get the traffic there. What do you think? I have tried emailing and calling OSHKOSH but no return. The sight shows a lot of booths still available actually.

Now as far as an exact fitment as the PC680.... The reason why we didn't do this is Odyssey created a very unique sized battery that fits very few applications and our battery size can fit in many different applications. I think it would be much less expensive and easier if we just had a battery box designed for our battery. What do you think? While at the Alaska Aviation show, we did meet with the makers of a certified battery box for the PC680 and we used our battery in it and it fits great. The name of the company escapes me right now, sorry, but I think it started with a "B"?

Kathy
 
Hi Kathy,

A couple points.

  1. I imagine the Ultralight building sees far less traffic than the main A-D buildings. I never made it to the Ultralight
    building last year. As you mentioned, there are booths in the big buildings still available for $2500.
  2. A replacement battery box that matched the mounting points of the Vans box might get you part of the way there.
    Folks could possibly unbolt their box and bolt on the new one. My worry is that since our boxes are fabricated to a
    particular aircraft, a manufactured box might not fit the holes the builder match drilled from their original box.
    Builder spacing variations.
The PC680 is used in a fair amount of automotive applications too: Race/Track cars. So the market may not be as small as you think.
What sales numbers are required to make a new battery case cost effective?

Thanks!
Russ
 
EarthX Lithium said:
Now as far as an exact fitment as the PC680.... The reason why we didn't do this is Odyssey created a very unique sized battery that fits very few applications and our battery size can fit in many different applications. I think it would be much less expensive and easier if we just had a battery box designed for our battery. What do you think? While at the Alaska Aviation show, we did meet with the makers of a certified battery box for the PC680 and we used our battery in it and it fits great. The name of the company escapes me right now, sorry, but I think it started with a "B"?Kathy
Click to expand...
Anything starting with the word "certified" is going to lose in the experimental market. Any marketer chasing the "certified" market is going to have her/his widget far overpriced for the experimental market. The whole reason the experimental market is growing while the certificated market is shrinking.

It really shouldn't be hard for ANYONE to make a battery box to fit these batteries. Really, why is it we have to buy things from others when we are patting ourselves on the back about how special we are because we are able to build our own airplane? Don't you think building our own battery box would be a lot simpler than building an airplane? If you want one of these batteries then just plan on building a battery box to fit it. How hard could it really be? :rolleyes:
 
RVbySDI said:
Anything starting with the word "certified" is going to lose in the experimental market. Any marketer chasing the "certified" market is going to have her/his widget far overpriced for the experimental market. The whole reason the experimental market is growing while the certificated market is shrinking.

It really shouldn't be hard for ANYONE to make a battery box to fit these batteries. Really, why is it we have to buy things from others when we are patting ourselves on the back about how special we are because we are able to build our own airplane? Don't you think building our own battery box would be a lot simpler than building an airplane? If you want one of these batteries then just plan on building a battery box to fit it. How hard could it really be? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Bravo.....
 
It's actually pretty easy. Here's a photo of mine. But I can see how many people like turn-key solutions once their plane is done.

Russ

DSC00527.JPG
 
Not hard...

It's not particularly difficult to fabricate an alternate box... a bit of a hassle though. My issue is switching back... I am not ready to fully commit to this new battery and want the ease and flexibility of dropping a PC680 back in. I have 3 of them and would only change over as a whimsical sort of purchase... might do it anyway sometime ;)

It really does not need to be an exact fit, just NOT bigger in any dimension while making it as large as possible. It is easy to accommodate some shimming and retain the drop in utility of a standard PC-680.
 
Yeah, maybe a generically compact battery with a high capacity, 36 or 48AH, that can fit into a PC680 as well as many powersports battery boxes with rubber shims filling any extra space.
 
Cost of new mould and BMS

grayforge said:
Hi Kathy,

A couple points.

  1. I imagine the Ultralight building sees far less traffic than the main A-D buildings. I never made it to the Ultralight
    building last year. As you mentioned, there are booths in the big buildings still available for $2500.
  2. A replacement battery box that matched the mounting points of the Vans box might get you part of the way there.
    Folks could possibly unbolt their box and bolt on the new one. My worry is that since our boxes are fabricated to a
    particular aircraft, a manufactured box might not fit the holes the builder match drilled from their original box.
    Builder spacing variations.
The PC680 is used in a fair amount of automotive applications too: Race/Track cars. So the market may not be as small as you think.
What sales numbers are required to make a new battery case cost effective?

Thanks!
Russ
Click to expand...

Hi Russ,

The costs to make and exact size mold of the PC680 is very expensive; the BMS circuit board would have to be redesigned to fit the top of the battery; the cells our custom made to fit our case sizes so a new mold would need to be made; and of course the mold for the case would have to be made. This is not to say it couldn't be done....but it is not cheap to do nor easy. As the manufacturer of these batteries, we can make it happen and this year alone we have introduced 2 new case designs and we have a jump pack coming out in less than a month that can jump start a motorcycle, car, truck, airplane etc. as long as it is a 12V. As we get feedback, we decide on what to develop next and if we get a lot of feedback from the airplane world....maybe we will budget for it for our next case design.

Kathy
 
I hear ya on the R&D and Tooling costs for a new design. Semi-Catch-22: Sometimes, it's difficult to know how popular something will be until it's released. There's always risk.

My uneducated guess is still that with the popularity of the PC680 as a miscellaneous vehicle battery, it'd be worthwhile. Of course, no one's going to commit thousands of dollars based on my opinion. :)

How's the Oshkosh planning?

Thanks!
Russ
 
I am pretty frustrated with OSHKOSH right now....can't get any type of response at all. I will continue to try contacting them by email and phone calls. You actually confirmed my exact fear about the ultralight hanger.....to go to a show for a week is a very big time commitment for us and we have to make it worth our time! And spend a little bit of time looking for a place to stay....uugghh! It's like Sturgis but in Wisconsin.

Kathy
 
EarthX Lithium said:
I am pretty frustrated with OSHKOSH right now....can't get any type of response at all. I will continue to try contacting them by email and phone calls. You actually confirmed my exact fear about the ultralight hanger.....to go to a show for a week is a very big time commitment for us and we have to make it worth our time! And spend a little bit of time looking for a place to stay....uugghh! It's like Sturgis but in Wisconsin.

Kathy
Click to expand...
I would expect a vendor would have to make plans far in advance in order to display their wares at Oshkosh. This is less than 2 months away from the big show. I would bet it will be very difficult to get a top notch booth location this late in the game. You might have to take what you can get if you are committed to having a display this year, then plan now for next year.

As for accommodations, again, this is late in the game for planning. You might consider camping if all other options fall through. It might not be ideal but it does work. What about a motor home, trailer, etc. for accommodations? Have you thought about that? Many vendors go that route.
 
Thank you Steve for your advice. And I know it does seem like I dropped the ball but it wasn't until my dealer that offered up his space to share mentioned we might be better off in another building that I really started looking into it. I thought it was all wrapped up. :(

There is many spaces available on the site map for OSHKOSH so I know they are not sold out....just need someone to respond back to me on getting a space.

Is there a particular camp ground you would recommend? I am not a tent kinda girl....it would be an RV...and not the plane type either.

Kathy
 
LOL! Camping in an RV-7. :)

The camping that Steve refers to is on-site at the Oshkosh airshow. There are miles of fields there to camp in.

Another option is renting a home from one of the locals. Here is where you can find homes for rent: http://www.visitoshkosh.com/eaa-lodging/private-listings/

Alas, often, home owners don't update their listings and they end up not actually being available, but give it a try. Send them an email that makes you sound like a responsible person and you might find a nice home to stay in that's less expensive than the hotels (which gouge show attendees that week).

Good luck!
Russ
 
I would say getting a motor home or travel trailer of some kind up there would be the way I would try to go. It depends on whether you already have access to one or not that will make the difference. "Camping in a ground bound RV" with an actual bathroom with shower and kitchen would be the way I would try to go if I were a vendor. Finding a private home would be nice if you can secure it but, for me, the next best thing would be staying in a travel trailer right on the grounds.
 
Problem is, the larger capacity batteries are too wide for the PC680 case. 3.4" vs the case dimension of 3".
 
grayforge said:
Problem is, the larger capacity batteries are too wide for the PC680 case. 3.4" vs the case dimension of 3".
Click to expand...

That's precisely the problem. My battery box is a tight fit with PC680. An extra 0.4 inches is a non-starter. If there were a LifePo battery with a BMS that fit entirely within the dimensions of the PC680 I'd buy one tomorrow. I suspect that a lot of others would too.
 
Kathy,

Here's an offer for you: I'll fund the design and tooling for a PC680 sized EarthX LiFePO battery, then will simply take 70% of the profits from the sales of that battery until my investment is payed off, after which we switch to 10% royalty per battery. :)
 
Got a booth!

We are all set up to be in booth 4155 in Hanger D, aka Garmin hanger. :) Thank you all for input!

And I do appreciate the input on the battery case size....and for what it is worth, I have only had about 2% of customers that have bought the ETX36D battery in place of the PC680 HAVE to make a new battery box. The rest all report back that it fit just fine. And if you have purchases one, you can verify we ask everyone who does to please report back to us if fitment is an issue. We do also offer 30 days money back guarantee so if you did get one and decided the fit just won't work, you can return it. But...I have to say once you get one and see how much power it has and how light it weighs....if you need to adjust something you will do it. To date, we have not had one battery returned for this reason.
 
Great to see you got a booth at OSH! What did you find for lodging?

I'll be sure to drop by your booth... and maybe pick up an ETX36C. :)
 
We actually have family in Wisconsin and when they heard we were coming that direction insisted on us staying with them. It will be a 2 hours commute each direction each day......but that's what you do for family right?
 
4 hours of driving a day... ouch! But you can't beat the price.

Maybe a friendly RVer can give you a ride in one of our little hot rods. :)
 
EarthX Lithium said:
But...I have to say once you get one and see how much power it has and how light it weighs....if you need to adjust something you will do it. To date, we have not had one battery returned for this reason.
Click to expand...

The high power with light weight is certainly attractive, but I have no plans to purchase for my 7A due to concerns about a change to a more aft CG that i am not comfortable with. With a lightweight composite prop the heavier PC680 on the firewall is necessary to keep the CG reasonable. Haven't fired out how to overcome that short of a design change to the engine mount and cowling.

Erich
 
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I thought with our RV-7A Nose gear, we wouldn't have issues with aft CG. I'm installing a composite constant speed prop, so am unlikely to have aft CG issues.
 
erich weaver said:
The high power with light weight is certainly attractive, but I have no plans to purchase for my 7A due to concerns about a change to a more aft CG that i am not comfortable with. With a lightweight composite prop the heavier PC680 on the firewall is necessary to keep the CG reasonable. Haven't fired out how to overcome that short of a design change to the engine mount and cowling.

Erich
Click to expand...
I bet if you did the calculations on the CG for an A model, taking 10 or so pounds off of the nose would not significantly shift the CG aft enough to cause any problems. It might even be beneficial for reducing the weight on the nose gear.
 
Odyssey PC680 Battery Failing

I need to find another battery that will fit in my battery box and that will not be failing me every year. I have been flying my RV-7A for a little over 5 years and I have replaced my Odyssey PC680 6 times. I typically cannot even get a year out if them. I have spoken with Odyssey multiple times and have thoroughly checked my charging system as well as had my 60 AMP Plane Power alternator checked. The only thing I can figure is that this battery is undersized for my application since I have a lot of avionics in my panel and see up to 40 Amps when my smoke system and all my equipment is running. Maybe the battery cannot handle this much current running through it and therefore it fails quickly? I also use the Odyssey float charger in the winter when not flying often that is specified for this battery so it can't be the charger causing this problem. Anyone have any ideas or a battery recommendation please feel free to let me know.
 
luv2flypilot said:
I need to find another battery that will fit in my battery box and that will not be failing me every year. I have been flying my RV-7A for a little over 5 years and I have replaced my Odyssey PC680 6 times. I typically cannot even get a year out if them. I have spoken with Odyssey multiple times and have thoroughly checked my charging system as well as had my 60 AMP Plane Power alternator checked. The only thing I can figure is that this battery is undersized for my application since I have a lot of avionics in my panel and see up to 40 Amps when my smoke system and all my equipment is running. Maybe the battery cannot handle this much current running through it and therefore it fails quickly? I also use the Odyssey float charger in the winter when not flying often that is specified for this battery so it can't be the charger causing this problem. Anyone have any ideas or a battery recommendation please feel free to let me know.
Click to expand...

There is an extensive thread on Odyssey PC 680 batteries on the forum. Many reports similar to yours. The consensus appears to be that using the float charger all the time might be the problem. Try a search.

I have had very good success with cheaper batteries, specifically the Tempest brand. About half the price of an Odyssey. I only use a charger if the plane has not been flown in over a couple of months. Never an issue. 5 years on the most recent battery, plane flies irregularly, and sometimes with weeks between flights.

I'm not sure I would continue buying the same battery over and over again if it continually failed.
 
Bryon

We bought a PC680 in 2007. It has been in/out of 2 RVs, but flying ~125hr pa. It has been charged about twice (due periods on non-use, or run down by neglect). Altn varied PP60A / Vans 40A / PP 30A.

Your avionics and smoke should have little to do with the battery if the high loads are run from the Alternator? If your ammeter is in the battery line, rather than alternator, one would think like us you might see max 20A post start, dropping quickly to say 5A, and after a bit max 1-2A.

I appreciate a wise man would now replace it, but it has done v well.

I can only think there is something in your setup killing otherwise good batteries? Or the charger.
 
Don't use a charger!

Like Andy's above mine was new in 2007. It's only been on a charger once when I left the master on by mistake.
400 hours 7 years and starts fine.
The trend seems to be that those batteries that never go on a trickle charger last for years, those that are trickle charged die in about a year.

Cheers

Peter
 
My experience is similar to Pete's; I've been lucky to fly 20 hrs a year for the last few years, & rarely use a charger on my no-name SLA battery (22AH in the same footprint as a PC680). The current battery is several years old and starts the plane fine after sitting idle for weeks.

In a properly designed and operating electrical system, the battery will only supply current during startup and when the charging system has failed. Rare exceptions might be something like an old 'classic' no-electrical system a/c that has had a battery, starter & comm radio added & flies without any charging system at all, but the only demand on the battery would be the insignificant load of the comm (idle most of the time).

Charlie
 
luv2flypilot said:
I need to find another battery that will fit in my battery box and that will not be failing me every year. I have been flying my RV-7A for a little over 5 years and I have replaced my Odyssey PC680 6 times. I typically cannot even get a year out if them. I have spoken with Odyssey multiple times and have thoroughly checked my charging system as well as had my 60 AMP Plane Power alternator checked. The only thing I can figure is that this battery is undersized for my application since I have a lot of avionics in my panel and see up to 40 Amps when my smoke system and all my equipment is running. Maybe the battery cannot handle this much current running through it and therefore it fails quickly? I also use the Odyssey float charger in the winter when not flying often that is specified for this battery so it can't be the charger causing this problem. Anyone have any ideas or a battery recommendation please feel free to let me know.
Click to expand...


Sorry to hear about the yearly replacement issue. Here is an idea though....you mentioned you have a lot of avionics in your panel and the capacity of the battery is what will run these instruments. The PC680 has 12.8 amp capacity. If this is truly the problem and you need more capacity, we do sell a 24ah capacity battery, the ETX48E that weighs 7.7 pounds. Or, if that is not the problem, our ETX36D has 12ah capacity and comes with a 2 year complete warranty so you for SURE do not need to buy a new one every year. And I have to be honest, I hear a lot of feedback about the Odyssey as being a really great battery that pilots get at least 3 years out of them and what you describe is not a common story on our end so the use of that charger in the off season might be a definite factor.

Kathy (EarthX Lithium Batteries)
 
PC680 Battery Problems

Thanks for all your input. I am 99% sure it is not my charging system as I have gone through it with a fine tooth comb and even had pulled my alternator and had it tested. Odyssey told me that it is possible that my battery is undersized for my application. I am just tired of having to bring an extra battery with me on trips since I have been stuck in Oregon and SoCal with battery issues. I am assuming that the failure may be because of the higher load of my panel where I constantly see 30-40 amps running on my Vertical Power LCD display when I have everything running. I have a 60 amp Plane Power alternator and it works just fine and I have metered 14.17 volts at the battery while the engine is running. As of the last battery replacement which was last month, I have not used the Odyssey charger that I have even though they have told me that that should not be a problem. I have a memory wire connected to my battery for a DVD player that runs my cameras and Sirius XM radio that draws very little current while the plane is sitting, however if it sat for a few months during the winter I would assume this would draw the battery down and that is why I use the float charger int hew winter. I am just a bit frustrated and want to figure out why I keep having this problem or find a battery that will suffice my needs that will fit in my PC680 box that I have mounted on my firewall.
 
luv2flypilot said:
I am just a bit frustrated and want to figure out why I keep having this problem or find a battery that will suffice my needs that will fit in my PC680 box that I have mounted on my firewall.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you have adequately checked your charging system.

How hot does your battery get on the firewall? I'ved used these stickers on everything expensive or fragile under my cowl. It's made me change or add blast tubes more than once. Cheap and easy, the cost of one odyssey battery would buy a lifetime supply of the stickers...
 
luv2flypilot said:
Thanks for all your input. I am 99% sure it is not my charging system as I have gone through it with a fine tooth comb and even had pulled my alternator and had it tested. Odyssey told me that it is possible that my battery is undersized for my application. I am just tired of having to bring an extra battery with me on trips since I have been stuck in Oregon and SoCal with battery issues. I am assuming that the failure may be because of the higher load of my panel where I constantly see 30-40 amps running on my Vertical Power LCD display when I have everything running. I have a 60 amp Plane Power alternator and it works just fine and I have metered 14.17 volts at the battery while the engine is running. As of the last battery replacement which was last month, I have not used the Odyssey charger that I have even though they have told me that that should not be a problem. I have a memory wire connected to my battery for a DVD player that runs my cameras and Sirius XM radio that draws very little current while the plane is sitting, however if it sat for a few months during the winter I would assume this would draw the battery down and that is why I use the float charger int hew winter. I am just a bit frustrated and want to figure out why I keep having this problem or find a battery that will suffice my needs that will fit in my PC680 box that I have mounted on my firewall.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you have a bad charger. It seems like the one thing not checked.
George
 
Odyssey PC680 Failure

Thanks for everyone's input. I received an email today from Odyssey stating the last battery that lasted less than a year appears to be a defective manufactured battery and they are sending me a new replacement. I already bought another so I will be putting this on my shelf as a spare. It also sounds that even though in speaking with Odyssey and they claim using their charger between flights won't hurt the battery, that other people have had good success with the PC680 by not using the charger/tinder between flights. With that being said, I am not going to use it unless my battery is too low to start my engine which may only be in the winter time if my plane sits a few months with the minimum current draw of the memory wire from my DVD Entertainment unit installed in my panel. Worse case I will charge it back up using my Odyssey 25A charger prior to flight. For you that thought possibly I had a bad charger, I ruled that out by purchasing another Odyssey charger last year and having the same problems.

Of course when it rains it pours. Just last Saturday I went to start my plane to fly up to Truckee for the weekend and my starter went out. This is the second SkyTec 12LS starter I have been through and the last one was replaced a little over a year ago when I got stranded in SoCal. SkyTec is going to warranty the starter and I am going to have them upgrade me to the NL heavier duty model, but need to get my plane up and running for a trip planned to Oregon next week so I decided to buy an X-Drive starter from Aircraft Spruce and either sell or keep the NL as a backup. A bunch of guys on here have had great luck switching to the X-Drive as well as it may help my battery issues along with not using the charger between flights as the X-Drive has a lower current draw. This should help especially since I have LASAR ignition that seems to draw quit a bit of current on start. Thanks for all your feedback.
 
It was great to meet the VANS pilots at the show!

I just want to say how great it was the meet many VAF forum readers who stopped by the booth at the Rocky Mountain Air Show this past weekend in Loveland, Colorado....and also thank you all that bought a battery!

Kathy
 
Images of an installed EarthX in a Zenith aircraft

I just wanted to post some pictures sent to me by one of our customers named John who installed the ETX36D in his Zenith STOL CH750?s firewall where the Odyssey PC680 used to go and he gave me permission to post it. He did say it fit just fine in the battery box. And I hope I don't offend anyone posting a Zenith on a Vans forum........

Kathy

2lcw95g.jpg

9kyoi9.jpg
 
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