Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
Liability release and selling an RV
- Thread starter s_tones
- Start date
G-force
Well Known Member
I'm no lawyer...but perhaps multiple releases would help ie one for the airframe, one for the engine, etc? Also, can you volunetarly pull the air worthyness cert and sell it as an non-functional plane? Let the new owner and DAR sign off on a new air worththyness cert. Sure it will degrade value, but less than scrapping the airframe.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
combat404 said:
Which is exactly why the law needs to be changed so that plaintiffs and their attorneys are required to reimburse defendants when the defendant is not found guilty/at fault.
Steve, your term "lawyer phoebe" is not correct. Phoebe means scared of.
I am not scared of lawyers, just dont like them, or what they have done to the legal system.
Now the current state of the legal system----------that scares me.
Mike
Last edited by a moderator:
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
R
Richard Suffoletto
Is a spouse or estate just as responsible?
What happens if the estate or a spouse of the builder sells the plane? Does the builders estate or spouse have the same exposure?
What happens if the estate or a spouse of the builder sells the plane? Does the builders estate or spouse have the same exposure?
MustangUSA
Member
Mel,
There is a huge question mark floating around above my head
Does your comment mean that a once DAR inspected, and signed-off plane has had the certification, and data plate removed by the existing owner for purposes of potential reseller liability issues, that the plane can never be re-inspected by a DAR, and re-certified again in the experimental category? I hope I misunderstand your comment
Thanks,
John Wanamaker
RV-7 Emp
Cuyler Airpark (FD27)
There is a huge question mark floating around above my head
Thanks,
John Wanamaker
RV-7 Emp
Cuyler Airpark (FD27)
MustangUSA
Member
Mel,
Thanks for the reply... but... I am still confused then... (sorry, getting old is a b***h). What recourse then does a new prospective buyer of an existing, previously flying RV have when he wants to buy one partially disassembled, and the present owner has decertified it by removing the data plate and terminating the aircraft registration with the FAA? And one last add-on question to that... what if the person you buy it from, is not the original builder, but the 2nd or 3rd owner, and the existing owner is just paranoid of the liability aspects? What is the new buyer to do to get it legal to fly again with a new "N" number?
Enquiring minds want to know... thanks Mel.
Best Regards,
John Wanamaker
RV-7 Emp
Cuyler Airpark (FD27)
Thanks for the reply... but... I am still confused then... (sorry, getting old is a b***h). What recourse then does a new prospective buyer of an existing, previously flying RV have when he wants to buy one partially disassembled, and the present owner has decertified it by removing the data plate and terminating the aircraft registration with the FAA? And one last add-on question to that... what if the person you buy it from, is not the original builder, but the 2nd or 3rd owner, and the existing owner is just paranoid of the liability aspects? What is the new buyer to do to get it legal to fly again with a new "N" number?
Enquiring minds want to know... thanks Mel.
Best Regards,
John Wanamaker
RV-7 Emp
Cuyler Airpark (FD27)
morlino
Well Known Member
FAR 91.7
It doesn't seem to matter who owns it, who built it, who does the maintenance, or what the nature of the problem was... The pilot is ultimately responsible. Am I missing something?
Sec. 91.7
Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.
It doesn't seem to matter who owns it, who built it, who does the maintenance, or what the nature of the problem was... The pilot is ultimately responsible. Am I missing something?
Sec. 91.7
Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.
Too bad it isn't that simple. In our sue happy society, the hopes of getting rich with little effort askew the obvious.morlino said:
Flying into rapidly rising terrain, and impacting the mountain causes the next of kin to sue the aircraft manufacturer for not making an airplane that can out-climb a mountain. Crashing and burning because of water in the tanks causes Piper to be sued because they stuck an engine on the airplane that can't run on water (the last happened, thats the summary of it, don't know the outcome).
We builders' and pilots' are a small niche. The challenge is to convince a group of 12 people who, most likely, have no experience with/in aviation other than hoping on an airline flight to be whisked off to their next vacation spot.
If you sell your airplane CYA as much as you can. You most likely can't cover every possible scenario.
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
Without wading into the age old debate on lawyers and the legal system, I'm still trying to ascertain just how big a problem suits against RV builders really is.
In looking over the NTSB reports, (or at least the daily FAA update), I see RVs going down that obviously weren't built by the pilot who perished or who had an accident.
But I'm not seeing evidence that there are RV builders who are being challenged in court cases. I presume there are some, but how many? One? Five? 100?
I agree a transfer of an RV needs to protect the seller as much as legally possible, but I have absolutely no sense of the extent of risk that's involved, that's supported by evidence or math.
In looking over the NTSB reports, (or at least the daily FAA update), I see RVs going down that obviously weren't built by the pilot who perished or who had an accident.
But I'm not seeing evidence that there are RV builders who are being challenged in court cases. I presume there are some, but how many? One? Five? 100?
I agree a transfer of an RV needs to protect the seller as much as legally possible, but I have absolutely no sense of the extent of risk that's involved, that's supported by evidence or math.
Asset protection
This is a never-ending story. It is further complicated by a number of variables: manufacture responsibility, assembler responsibility, maintenance responsibility, weather factors, negligence, state in which incident occurred, liability release, lawyer's skills, who has deep(est) pocket, judge properly medicated, jury awake, etc... There are no guarantees. But money is usually the bottom line before any legal issues are really going to be addressed: who has the deepest pocket? No pocket deep enough, sharks probably swim away. So make yourself unpalatable for the sharks and they may not want to even try to bite you. Get yourself some knowledgeable protection in the form of release that fits your circumstances, not the walmart shelf one-size-fits-all kind. Make yourself as judgement-proof as you can with protection of your ASSETS, e.g., LLC or Corp, etc. (not a partnership or any legal entity that permits creditors to reach your assets).
This is a never-ending story. It is further complicated by a number of variables: manufacture responsibility, assembler responsibility, maintenance responsibility, weather factors, negligence, state in which incident occurred, liability release, lawyer's skills, who has deep(est) pocket, judge properly medicated, jury awake, etc... There are no guarantees. But money is usually the bottom line before any legal issues are really going to be addressed: who has the deepest pocket? No pocket deep enough, sharks probably swim away. So make yourself unpalatable for the sharks and they may not want to even try to bite you. Get yourself some knowledgeable protection in the form of release that fits your circumstances, not the walmart shelf one-size-fits-all kind. Make yourself as judgement-proof as you can with protection of your ASSETS, e.g., LLC or Corp, etc. (not a partnership or any legal entity that permits creditors to reach your assets).
L'Avion
Well Known Member
Registering as a corporation
For the jailhouse lawyers out there:
What if an aircraft is registered to a corporation, and is not sold as such, but the shares in the corporation are all sold to another individual,and the keys to the aircraft are passed to the new shareholder? No aircraft was sold or purchased, just shares in a corporation, such as: N000RV, Inc.
For the jailhouse lawyers out there:
What if an aircraft is registered to a corporation, and is not sold as such, but the shares in the corporation are all sold to another individual,and the keys to the aircraft are passed to the new shareholder? No aircraft was sold or purchased, just shares in a corporation, such as: N000RV, Inc.
Be a Corporation Employee?
I'm not sure if you can do this, but can you create a corporation and simply employ yourself as the aircraft builder? When you sell the airplane, you close down the corporation. As an owner, your assets are protected, and as an employee, my guess is the corporation is ultimately responsible for your actions. I've never heard of someone suing a Cessna employee for a bad build job, but they'll go after the company who employs the builder (whether that's because that's where the money is or that's the only legal path they can take, I don't know). If you close down the corporation after the sale, what is there for the buyer to go after?
I obviously have no idea if you can structure it this way, but I've often wondered if this is a possibility.
Brandon
ptrotter said:
I'm not sure if you can do this, but can you create a corporation and simply employ yourself as the aircraft builder? When you sell the airplane, you close down the corporation. As an owner, your assets are protected, and as an employee, my guess is the corporation is ultimately responsible for your actions. I've never heard of someone suing a Cessna employee for a bad build job, but they'll go after the company who employs the builder (whether that's because that's where the money is or that's the only legal path they can take, I don't know). If you close down the corporation after the sale, what is there for the buyer to go after?
I obviously have no idea if you can structure it this way, but I've often wondered if this is a possibility.
Brandon
A Corporation only goes so far
Sorry guys, Incorporating your aircraft will only take you so far. If it was your negligence that made the ship crash, then you are liable, even it the aircraft is owned by a corporation. Again, every situation is different. You can take definite steps to minimize your liability, but you cannot erase responsibility for a consequence proximately caused (a legal word there) by your negligence. Check with your own aviation attorney, your mileage may vary.
Sorry guys, Incorporating your aircraft will only take you so far. If it was your negligence that made the ship crash, then you are liable, even it the aircraft is owned by a corporation. Again, every situation is different. You can take definite steps to minimize your liability, but you cannot erase responsibility for a consequence proximately caused (a legal word there) by your negligence. Check with your own aviation attorney, your mileage may vary.
Steve Ashby said:
If the plane crashes because of my negligence, I deserve to be held responsible. But what I would be concerned about (and I think this is most builders' concern) is being hit with a ridiculous lawsuit when a crash has nothing to do with build quality and everything to do with pilot error. Unfortunately, grieving families may not see that distinction clearly and go after the builder/seller based on emotion rather than fact. That's what I want protection from. Maybe we can't ever have that protection. If that's the case, so be it. I guess we just have to throw the dice and hope for the best. It definitely won't keep me from building.
Brandon
skelrad said:
Quick answer is NOPE! Corporations cannot build experimental aircraft or be listed as the builder (at least when it comes to our single engine airplanes which are experimental amateur built - not R&D, etc..). They can own them and register them, but they can't build them. Using Cessna as an example is worthless....they are a corporation building planes under a type certificate.
It doesn't matter who owns the plane (corporation or otherwise), the manufacturer of the airplane is still a person - so no matter how you try to structure the sale through weird entities, the person who built it will always be the builder.
That's it - just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein.
Tony Spicer
Well Known Member
1. Join EAA
2. Read this:
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/selling/purchase_sale_agreement.html
3. Get an attorney.
4. Don't worry, be happy!
Tony
2. Read this:
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/selling/purchase_sale_agreement.html
3. Get an attorney.
4. Don't worry, be happy!
Tony
Product Liablity
How big is product liability?
I was interested in selling my home built until I started reading about ?Product Liability? Before I jump in the building community I was not totally aware how big a threat it is to a person. After reading up on the issue I am astonished to what can happen. I know the risk is low of ever being sued but what if? Does anybody have any stattistics on what the risk is?
My thinking is once a person sells and looses control of the airplane and how it is maintained. The risk goes up.
Some say have the buyer sign a Waiver but what if the original buyer sells and a new owner crashes and kills a person or two. They will come looking for the builder. It is like ringing a bell once it has been rung there is no un ringing it.
I would like hearing back on this subject
Marvin
How big is product liability?
I was interested in selling my home built until I started reading about ?Product Liability? Before I jump in the building community I was not totally aware how big a threat it is to a person. After reading up on the issue I am astonished to what can happen. I know the risk is low of ever being sued but what if? Does anybody have any stattistics on what the risk is?
My thinking is once a person sells and looses control of the airplane and how it is maintained. The risk goes up.
Some say have the buyer sign a Waiver but what if the original buyer sells and a new owner crashes and kills a person or two. They will come looking for the builder. It is like ringing a bell once it has been rung there is no un ringing it.
I would like hearing back on this subject
Marvin
Marvin,
This topic has been discussed for many years. Bottom line is You are always the builder of the airplane. No way around it. I get phone calls several times a year asking how the liability can be passed on. It just can't happen. The only way to get rid of the liability is to surrender the airworthiness certificate. Once this is done, it is no longer an airplane and can never be re-certified by anyone except you. If this bothers you, then don't sell. A signed waiver is a good idea but there are no guaranty it will help.
To my knowledge no home-builder has ever been successfully sued. Several have been sued, but not successfully. The biggest reason for this is probably the "deep pocket" theory. Most home-builders just don't have deep enough pockets to attract lawyers.
This topic has been discussed for many years. Bottom line is You are always the builder of the airplane. No way around it. I get phone calls several times a year asking how the liability can be passed on. It just can't happen. The only way to get rid of the liability is to surrender the airworthiness certificate. Once this is done, it is no longer an airplane and can never be re-certified by anyone except you. If this bothers you, then don't sell. A signed waiver is a good idea but there are no guaranty it will help.
To my knowledge no home-builder has ever been successfully sued. Several have been sued, but not successfully. The biggest reason for this is probably the "deep pocket" theory. Most home-builders just don't have deep enough pockets to attract lawyers.
Last edited:
