What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

LCP and Quickbuild Kits

H

hoz

Member
Starting a new thread to discuss the needs and expectations of those of us that have QB kits that are impacted by the LCP issue.

It seems there are 3 categories of impacted groups, namely
1) At Vans but not shipped
2) Shipped but not installed
3) Installed

I fall into group 2), but have no intention of installing parts that will likely be a cause for reduced value of the plane in future years, nor do I wish to take apart an untouched part that I have paid to have assembled for me. I indicated this to Vans in the survey, but have had zero feedback from them.

Has anyone in my position (or group 1) successfully engaged with Vans with a view to either replace or return QB kits? Has Vans given anyone feedback with regards to shipping costs?
 
hoz said:
Starting a new thread to discuss the needs and expectations of those of us that have QB kits that are impacted by the LCP issue.

It seems there are 3 categories of impacted groups, namely
1) At Vans but not shipped
2) Shipped but not installed
3) Installed

I fall into group 2), but have no intention of installing parts that will likely be a cause for reduced value of the plane in future years, nor do I wish to take apart an untouched part that I have paid to have assembled for me. I indicated this to Vans in the survey, but have had zero feedback from them.

Has anyone in my position (or group 1) successfully engaged with Vans with a view to either replace or return QB kits? Has Vans given anyone feedback with regards to shipping costs?
Click to expand...

I'm in group 1.

After a couple of hours in aggregate on hold I got through via phone. Mentioned that I'd be willing to wait or convert to slow build as resolution options.

Rep on the line said that was fine, mentioned they did not yet have a list of people who need QB resolution as they are focusing on reworking existing QB kits which is all as expected as they have a significant sunk cost. I submitted a SB fuse kit order via website, that has yet to be acknowledged.

All in all cautiously optimistic.
 
Same mere...

hoz said:
Starting a new thread to discuss the needs and expectations of those of us that have QB kits that are impacted by the LCP issue.

It seems there are 3 categories of impacted groups, namely
1) At Vans but not shipped
2) Shipped but not installed
3) Installed

I fall into group 2), but have no intention of installing parts that will likely be a cause for reduced value of the plane in future years, nor do I wish to take apart an untouched part that I have paid to have assembled for me. I indicated this to Vans in the survey, but have had zero feedback from them.

Has anyone in my position (or group 1) successfully engaged with Vans with a view to either replace or return QB kits? Has Vans given anyone feedback with regards to shipping costs?
Click to expand...

Yep, that's me, group 2. Both QB fuselage and QB wing in the garage, but have not touched them. We did the first round of inspections on the fuselage this week. We definitively have LCPs from the red category in the assembly - although admittedly they don't look as bad as the worst LCP parts I have seen on the shelf.

We are already 100k in to this plane, of which roughly 40k are the QB Wings and Fuselage. Once complete, including paint job and everything, it will be a>$200k airplane. So where does that leave us? I see two options:

a) Wait for Van's Aircraft to come up with patches, then spend O(100h) ripping apart the assembly we paid for, putting in new parts, but never knowing for sure wether I caught all of them. At the end we'll have an airplane without guarantee to be free of LCPs: Market value? Would you pay 100k for such an airplane?

b) Stop my build now, get new QB wings and Fuselages (in maybe 1-2 years?), then finish the plane. Market value with a guarantee to be LCP free? Maybe $300k?

So let's say, hypothetically, I as builder made a similar mistake. Is it worth re-investing $40k in a QB Fuselage and Wing to end up with a $300k airplane instead of a 100k airplane? To me that's an easy decision...

Bottom line: I need to talk to Van's Aircraft.
 
I'm in the #1 group, QB fuse and QB wings at Van's in Oregon (made it there just after July and I assume to be full of LCP). I feel the same as many here, I'm redoing my emp, and have requested a switch to a SB fuse and a new QB wing kit. I have not had a response to my emails. I too assume that this puts me at least a year maybe two off in building. So I have accepted that delay to get non LCP, and like others have posted, keep the quality and value of my plane build to what I want.

In the meantime I did order a Zenith 750 SD to build in the interim, trying to make the best of it.
 
First of all, thank you for starting this thread. I feel as though us QB folks have almost been forgotten about. I believe individual parts can easily be replaced, but once those parts have been entombed in an assembly (ie QB kits), all bets are off.

I'm in group number two and I have absolutely no interest in dismantling any part of my QB kits...which I paid a premium for, to make any repairs. As a matter of fact, I don't want anyone dismantled them to make repairs...I want complete replacements.

If "repaired" QB kits are deemed to be just as good as new non LCP kits, than Vans is welcome to take mine back, make the repairs, and sell them to someone else.

I know this whole thing is hard on everyone, but it's unacceptable for me to have to accept anything other than what I originally paid for.

Not only am I back to square one and playing the waiting game to get replacements QB fuselage and wings, I also have $100k worth of engine and avionics that sitting in the hangar timing out.
 
Here is what I ordered (and paid $$$ for):
'QUICKBUILD WING panel approximately 80% completed at the factory. All parts primed before assembly. Fuel tanks finished, ailerons, flaps ready to install. Builder must rivet one wing skin, install wingtip, controls, fairings. Lights, fuel senders not included. NOTE that cost is in addition to Standard Wing Kit price.'
Instead I got a faulty product, using laser cutting technique that 'hasn't been allowed in the past' (in the words of Vans President), and now am being asked to disassemble the work that I paid to have done, fix their error, and reassemble myself :mad:
This cannot be right, and definitely is not fair, so much so that I am astounded that Vans have not yet addressed this directly.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Hoz for starting this thread.
I am in Cat 1 for -14 QB wing and fuse.

Informed Vans that I will only accept LCP free QB kits.
Willing to wait for new QB if needed.
Would consider a SB fuse depending on timing and cost difference.
Emails sent to Vans and questionnaire completed, nothing back.

Will be monitoring this thread for news.
 
Will Vans take back a QB under their return policy ?

Not sure what others have experienced but any insight Vans taking back a QB that has only blue and green parts affected? Not that I don’t trust Vans engineering but we are already seeing Service Bulletins for hinge and trim elevator cracks on parts that Vans designed to last as long as our airframes lifetime. (Currently cracking in less than 6 years of use) Vibration analysis modeling must be very complex and as such needs some very conservative engineering estimates.
 
Last edited:
Cat 2

Cat 2 here with -10 QB wings. Eagerly awaiting ANY news from Vans regarding QB kits. The worst part of all this is that there is absolutely no communication with the mothership. QB resolution has been left pretty much in the dark, no updates, no email responses, no phone... nothing. At least with the semi-regular updates on the forum, there was a glimmer of hope. I hope Vans publishes something soon, or at least commits to giving an update in x days.

Also, as for a resolution I would like to see Vans do the following:
1) Give QBers the option to send back their kit and have it either repaired (short leadtime) or replaced (yes a longer wait)
2) "Replaced" units could then be repaired in house at Vans and sold back to new builders who wanted to "skip" the line or maybe get a "deal" (recover a little lost capital)
3) The option to ship in the QB and convert to a slow build and have the QB cost refunded.
 
Last edited:
hoz said:
Starting a new thread to discuss the needs and expectations of those of us that have QB kits that are impacted by the LCP issue.

It seems there are 3 categories of impacted groups, namely
1) At Vans but not shipped
2) Shipped but not installed
3) Installed

I fall into group 2), but have no intention of installing parts that will likely be a cause for reduced value of the plane in future years, nor do I wish to take apart an untouched part that I have paid to have assembled for me. I indicated this to Vans in the survey, but have had zero feedback from them.

Has anyone in my position (or group 1) successfully engaged with Vans with a view to either replace or return QB kits? Has Vans given anyone feedback with regards to shipping costs?
Click to expand...


I’m in #2, wings RV9. The only comm from Vans was the generic “you may have a problem” email received months ago, plus the website updates that provide no assurances for QB owners. Patience so far, but running low. The resolution will be defect free QB or full refund.
 
I'm in group 2. RV-14A QB wings and Fuselage. I feel lucky that my fuselage does not have LCPs. I inspected each part that entered inventory before my parts were shipped to Exemplar. It is free and clear. Vans also said the same but only trusting my inspections at this point. Wing is another story. Zero doubt that wing ribs are LCP. Like most of you I have no intention of tearing them apart to make repairs.
 
Capt said:
Ah I see my post has been deleted (again !)

With all respect Capt, you need to read Doug's rules. He spells out very clearly what will cause a post deletion. You did break a rule, and it was only the time difference between Oz and the US kept your comment visible for a short time.

Regards,
Russell
Click to expand...
 
RussellT said:
Capt said:
Ah I see my post has been deleted (again !)

With all respect Capt, you need to read Doug's rules. He spells out very clearly what will cause a post deletion. You did break a rule, and it was only the time difference between Oz and the US kept your comment visible for a short time.

Regards,
Russell
Click to expand...

Well said. The mods are all volunteers who do a valuable job to help keep this site positive, so why would anyone be motivated to waste their time by continuing to post antagonistic comments when they are old enough to know better. Do that too many times and the account will be locked out.
Click to expand...
 
It doesn't look like we're asking for anything unreasonable, or even unprecedented. In 2021 Vans had an issue with the QB vendor applying primer incorrectly, and their response was
For category 1: Offer clients to take 'affected kits' + $2000 stipend, wait for new QB or change to SB
For category 2: Swap out affected kits or remediate based on a mutual determination.

I hope the wait / lack of communication is due to capacity constraints, but sincerely hope that it's not indicative of Vans downgrading their service (& reputation).

Greg: if you're reading this, I would really appreciate some feedback
 
In group one with an RV8 QB fuselage, 100% paid, and no news! Willing if necessary to a long wait or change to a slow build kit, but I will not accept an LCP or repaired fuselage.

I have also had my post deleted several times, without any explanation. I read the rules and I'm sorry if I said anything in the least bit offensive, but I've only always told the truth! It's not my fault if the facts sound bad, many times there is no way to embellish them... :confused:
 
hoz said:
It doesn't look like we're asking for anything unreasonable, or even unprecedented. In 2021 Vans had an issue with the QB vendor applying primer incorrectly, and their response was
For category 1: Offer clients to take 'affected kits' + $2000 stipend, wait for new QB or change to SB
For category 2: Swap out affected kits or remediate based on a mutual determination.

I hope the wait / lack of communication is due to capacity constraints, but sincerely hope that it's not indicative of Vans downgrading their service (& reputation).

Greg: if you're reading this, I would really appreciate some feedback
Click to expand...

That time they didn’t do an engineering study that determined the poor primer will still outlast the airframe.

I think they learned from that one and applied it to this mistake. It’s all about cost savings. Your cost, their savings.
 
I am looking at the possible timing scenario of going SB verses back of the line for a new QB. Looked at the Vans page for wait times on the -14 from now (10/23)
QB, 18 months or 4/25
SB, 10 months or 6/24.
10 months difference. Same for Fuse and Wing.
Could I get one or both kits done in 10 months? Probably one of them.
(this is time delta only. Not considering my time spent building)

Cost delta is more unknown. How much credit back on QB deposit/payment?
Will SB conversion price be current price or same as when QB was ordered?
I dont have past SB prices, but QB prices have gone up $4-5K each.
With reasonable scenario (current SB price less old QB price), delta in my case is;
Fuse $5121
Wing $4424
Total $9545
This is a savings for sure, but have to admit, cost penalty going from old QB price to new SB price (guessing $5-7K) really hurts.

Not judging or deciding anything here. Just trying to think thru the possible options while we all wait to hear more from Vans.
 
group 2

I'm in group 2.
Wings complete. As in all systems, controls, wingtips, lighting installed.
Fuse untouched. Waiting for some resolution before joining with aft fuse.

I have written several emails to Van's. Two directly to Greg Hughes. ZERO response.

Do they even know if my QB assys have LCPs? After carefully inspecting my QB fuse, I cannot tell. It's easy to identify an unassembled LCP but once it's been surface treated, primed and assembled it's nearly impossible.

IMG_1200.jpg

IMG_1202.jpg
 
jcbarker said:
Do they even know if my QB assys have LCPs? After carefully inspecting my QB fuse, I cannot tell. It's easy to identify an unassembled LCP but once it's been surface treated, primed and assembled it's nearly impossible.
Click to expand...

I don't believe so. From what we've seen so far and the information that has been released, the most likely scenario appears to be that there is zero traceability and absolutely no way to tell which customers are affected and which are not, beyond:

Either your kits are within the date window and you may be affected, or outside the date window and are definitely not.
 
Last edited:
response from Van's

As a follow up to my earlier post:
While I have heard nothing regarding my QB Fuse and QB Wings, I did receive an email from Greg regarding my Finish Kit saying it contained NO LCps. So maybe they know? Again, not much info coming from the Mother Ship.
 
jcbarker said:
As a follow up to my earlier post:
While I have heard nothing regarding my QB Fuse and QB Wings, I did receive an email from Greg regarding my Finish Kit saying it contained NO LCps. So maybe they know? Again, not much info coming from the Mother Ship.
Click to expand...

I received that same email a couple of weeks ago, but there’s really not many parts in the finishing kit that could be affected. It’s the rest of the airframe that I’m concerned about.
 
I'm in the #2 camp too.

I received my RV14A QB Fuse and QB Wings a couple of months ago in early August (unfortunately my kits were in a container on the sea when this LCP was announced).

Whilst I initially was patient hoping Van's would come through with a solution, it's now been 14 weeks and emails to Greg and others have gone unanswered, hence I'm getting extremely nervous now.

I have a Fuselage with over 100 crack-affected areas and have sent high-res images to Van's and a wing kit that is also affected. Given Vans were aware of the problems from last September (2022), I fail to understand how these QB kits missed QC checks on 3 occasions - during parts manufacture, at the QB facility (after assembly) and final QC at Van's.

There has been ample time to formulate a way forward or at least, give owners some form of communication with regards to QB proposals or timelines.

Like others, I'm asking for full replacement of my kits (with non-repaired kits).
 
Last edited:
Thanks for starting this thread! I’m in group 2 also. Received my -8 QB fuse at the end of June, right before the July 4 announcement. $20k+ for the kit plus $2300 shipping.

There is no way to know with certainty which of the ~120 unique P/Ns from the list are riveted into this assembly, but I’ve seen cracks. I’ve really tried to be patient and let things play out, but I’m extremely concerned at this point given the last update and the lack of comms on QBs after 3+ months.

I got the parts portal link but never got a survey. I put my feedback and thoughts together in an email a couple of weeks ago to the kits dept and indicated that I either want the QB fuselage replaced with one that does not contain LC parts (and am willing to wait), or I want to return the entire kit for a full refund plus the shipping cost that I paid to have the kit delivered.

I received a reply from the kits dept saying that my email had been forwarded to Greg. However, I havent received a reply from Greg or anyone else to this or to a follow-up request.

Really hoping to hear some feedback soon…
 
This is second-hand information from the Van's Facebook page but one member is stating that after calling and talking to someone at Van's:

"I was told that they have absolutely no idea on QB kits what individual parts were or were not laser cut, just a general idea like in my example they called out the 14 red/yellow parts in my QB fuselage. It will be up to the individual builder to determine what parts are or are not affected. "

This does not sound very promising. Man, I hope I am wrong but I haven't seen one thing that brings me hope.
 
Even if the full extent of the items that need to be replaced are not known, with the current advice indicating that, among many other items:
- the spar in my flaps needs to be replaced
- the 10 inboard ribs in my flaps need to be replaced
- the spar in my aileron needs to be replaced
- the nose ribs in my aileron need to be replaced
- the 11 wing inboard ribs need to be replaced
- the 8 main spar splice plates need to be replaced
All of which are either difficult or non-inspectable, then the net effect of this is that the quickbuild wing is almost completely defective. I can't imagine how anything other than a 'proper' QB replacement or SB & refund would be suitable.
 
Last edited:
We may or may not be in group 3. Our QB fuse was roughly in the date range of possible LCP. We have inspected the heck out of it, including drilling out sample rivets and closely inspecting as many dimples as possible. No evidence of any cracking has been found. Either we got lucky with LCP part quality, or no/few LCP parts involved.
 
Quick build craftsmanship

I got my quickbuild wings about a year ago and only really inspected the skin for damage during shipping. I have kept them boxed up out of the way till the LCP saga began. Now that I look closely I am very frustrated at the poor level of craftsmanship placing rivets. I counted over 40 that were not set properly and those are the ones that would be easy to set and inspect. They look like they could just fall out. Vans has missed the mark not just on LCP’s but on the quality control of the quick build kits. I potentially have LCP’s in everything. It’s all for sale to anyone who thinks this is the builders responsibility and that Vans will make this right.

Respectfully,
Todd
Rv14A
QB wings, fuse, tail done and joined.
 
Price?

Toddjen08 said:
I got my quickbuild wings about a year ago and only really inspected the skin for damage during shipping. I have kept them boxed up out of the way till the LCP saga began. Now that I look closely I am very frustrated at the poor level of craftsmanship placing rivets. I counted over 40 that were not set properly and those are the ones that would be easy to set and inspect. They look like they could just fall out. Vans has missed the mark not just on LCP’s but on the quality control of the quick build kits. I potentially have LCP’s in everything. It’s all for sale to anyone who thinks this is the builders responsibility and that Vans will make this right.

Respectfully,
Todd
Rv14A
QB wings, fuse, tail done and joined.
Click to expand...


What are you asking for it?
 
I have no horse in this race. Still, when I read these posts I feel the pain conveyed through them. It's a rotten situation for all involved, and I do mean all, right from the end customer up the chain through the major contractor, Van's, and the subcontractors. Nobody is going to come out smelling like a rose. It's truly an unfortunate set of circumstances.

There's one point not made so far in this thread which I believe is worthy of consideration. I'm sorry it's not a point which comes with a positive spin, but it is still something for QB kit owners to keep in mind.

For those with QB kits in hand or in "paid for and ready to ship" status, there's the very real possibility that zero dollars difference might exist between the QB cost and the cost of the (almost certain to be higher priced) SB kits which might be had as a replacement if one relinquishes their QB kit.

The most honest evaluation of the situation that I can come up with is that Van's is facing a double-whammy of a problem; significant product quality challenges and a significant shortage of cash to overcome those product quality challenges. Something is going to have to give and, to some degree or another, it's almost certainly end-customer pricing that will become one inevitable step on the road to recovery.

Again, I'm sorry this isn't a more positive observation.

For those who are feeling the brunt of this debacle I will hold out one positive thought. It could be worse. A lot worse.

As an owner of a Glasair Sportsman the "a lot worse" view is painfully close at hand. Glasair's entire production capacity, intellectual property, everything, has been shipped back to China to reside with its corporate owners. If I were to bend my airplane right now there is no way to obtain parts to fix it. Worse yet, the owners of the company have made zero attempt since August to communicate with their community of customers to share what their business plan might be. In short, I and every other Sportsman owner has no idea if or when we might be able to procure replacement parts.

Undoubtedly this is a difficult time to be a Van's customer - I really get that. What I also "get" is that Van himself has come out in the open to tell folks what's going on. Just for a moment imagine the anguish that man feels after having built this business on the basis of the most gentlemanly business practices and then seeing it come to this painful juncture.

We know there will be precious little communication from the company for at least another week; practically I wouldn't expect much truly meaningful communication this month. BUT we have to know the moral compass behind the company is the same man who has always been there. The bean counters will count their beans but, unlike an unknown offshore owner, Van will be there to advocate for the integrity of his designs and for the incredible goodwill built up within Van's loyal customers.

These are difficult days and there are more difficult days yet to come. The core strengths of the product and the company will, I'm certain, win the day. Better days will come. Please, let's be patient and allow the management team the time and space they need to come up with the best way forward.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
We know there will be precious little communication from the company for at least another week; practically I wouldn't expect much truly meaningful communication this month. BUT we have to know the moral compass behind the company is the same man who has always been there. The bean counters will count their beans but, unlike an unknown offshore owner, Van will be there to advocate for the integrity of his designs and for the incredible goodwill built up within Van's loyal customers.

These are difficult days and there are more difficult days yet to come. The core strengths of the product and the company will, I'm certain, win the day. Better days will come. Please, let's be patient and allow the management team the time and space they need to come up with the best way forward.
Click to expand...

Well said! I agree completely.
 
hoz said:
Starting a new thread to discuss the needs and expectations of those of us that have QB kits that are impacted by the LCP issue.

It seems there are 3 categories of impacted groups, namely
1) At Vans but not shipped
2) Shipped but not installed
3) Installed
Click to expand...

I'm lost, what is meant by "Installed?"
Do you mean fabrication completed as in I've received the QB wing, completed its fabrication and have attached it to the fuselage?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top