KAI general thoughts - for those with Van's influence

[Alphalpha]

It occurs to me that the KAI could be enhanced by including specific step by step check off items for both left and right components where those exist. Since I am building both wings separately it would be convenient to have each step include a check box for left and right side completion. I will be going through parts of the manual twice.

Also submitted to the KAI feedback form.

 

[rocketman1988]

It occurs to me that the KAI could be enhanced by including specific step by step check off items for both left and right components where those exist. Since I am building both wings separately it would be convenient to have each step include a check box for left and right side completion. I will be going through parts of the manual twice.

Also submitted to the KAI feedback form.

Honestly, I think that they should include all the mirrored drawings. It would eliminate all of the head scratching. Granted, there are some sections that don’t really need it but others where it could really help.

The plans are digital so it wouldn’t really be a problem and there isn’t any printed plans so no cost there…

 

[RNB]

I am not building a 15.
The first comment seems easy enough to do oneself.
On drawings and plans, I wish there were a 3d model to manipulate and look around. I have had a tough time picturing a 2D paper drawing into 3D understanding.

 

[Gash]

I already got bit by this. I built two identical W-15022 assemblies and then later realized that the one for the right wing needs to have the bearing flipped. So I got to take it all apart.

 

[dbhill916]

With respect to double check boxes, I developed the habit of writing an "R" or "L" under each verb in each line of instructions, and only checking the box when all verbs had two letters. Having said that, I agree w/ OP's original request of two columns of check boxes for each side.

My request is to have the isometric orientation vectors (Up, Fwd, Out/Inboard) on all pages and that all drawn parts respect that orientation.

 

[RVbySDI]

With respect to double check boxes, I developed the habit of writing an "R" or "L" under each verb in each line of instructions, and only checking the box when all verbs had two letters. Having said that, I agree w/ OP's original request of two columns of check boxes for each side.

My request is to have the isometric orientation vectors (Up, Fwd, Out/Inboard) on all pages and that all drawn parts respect that orientation.

Been down this road since receiving my kit on February 9th. Spent the better part of 6+ weeks back in February, March, April trying to get answers concerning mislabeled parts, miss labeled instructions, requests for orientation information on the instructions, instructions that include the correct part numbers for the right wing on the KAI just to name a few.

This is not my first RV build so even though I could not get much in the way of information from Vans when I have run into issues, I have been able to figure things out on my own. However, I really would not expect a FANTASTIC KAI BUILD such as has been touted this to be to have so many errors and so little support from Vans. I am sure I will eventually love finishing and flying this plane. At present though, the lack of meaningful response from Vans on resolving problems has left a sour taste in my mouth.

Apologies for the less than positive rant.

I will close with something more positive:
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!!

 

[ScottSchmidt]

Been down this road since receiving my kit on February 9th. Spent the better part of 6+ weeks back in February, March, April trying to get answers concerning mislabeled parts, miss labeled instructions, requests for orientation information on the instructions, instructions that include the correct part numbers for the right wing on the KAI just to name a few.

This is not my first RV build so even though I could not get much in the way of information from Vans when I have run into issues, I have been able to figure things out on my own. However, I really would not expect a FANTASTIC KAI BUILD such as has been touted this to be to have so many errors and so little support from Vans. I am sure I will eventually love finishing and flying this plane. At present though, the lack of meaningful response from Vans on resolving problems has left a sour taste in my mouth.

Apologies for the less than positive rant.

I will close with something more positive:
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!!

I agree.
An assembly drawing of the right side of everything would be so nice. I was able to build flaps and ailerons side by side but the wing is not possible.
I am taking pictures along the way to help with the right wing if there is any confusion. I will also invert the assembly drawing and print it.

 

[GaryK]

I agree.
An assembly drawing of the right side of everything would be so nice. I was able to build flaps and ailerons side by side but the wing is not possible.
I am taking pictures along the way to help with the right wing if there is any confusion. I will also invert the assembly drawing and print it.

Until Vans provides a proper set of "Right" plans I just mirrored each section and put them in a Wing Assemble Right folder. Yes all the text is also mirrored but if needed just reference the Left drawings. Especially helpful with the Aileron, Flaps and mixer boxes...

 

[flymore]

Until Vans provides a proper set of "Right" plans I just mirrored each section and put them in a Wing Assemble Right folder. Yes all the text is also mirrored but if needed just reference the Left drawings. Especially helpful with the Aileron, Flaps and mixer boxes...

I did the same, including Right Elevator.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

I haven’t started any work on my RV-15 kit yet so you guys are making me nervous.
Especially those that have built an RV previously, because in the entire model history, every construction manual / KAI has only included drawings for one of the two wings.
I’m starting to wonder if I can even build this thing

 

[543TB]

I think the problem might be that people saw the brag about "easy" kit plans a year ago (which looked suspiciously like what Sling was offering), and the promise that they would be responsive to feedback and fix errors. These pages are a breeze even compared to the 10, which was a serious upgrade from the 7 plans. I'm relieved not to have reams of paper to sort through. I do wish they were revising faster, now that I'm sure they're getting the same questions or complaints over and over again.

As far as the left/right thing goes, my Mac lets me take a screenshot and then flip the image horizontally. Bingo, reverse image plans.

 

[Alphalpha]

I would add, after building an early -6 and a -3B that having blueprints greatly helps the builder see the overall design objectives.

Not having this greatly increases the errors that occur when the step by step directions are weak or missing information.

 

[Louise Hose]

I have had zero problems with the right/left issue after completing the tail and both wings (except the starboard coves) and even wonder if the current situation has its benefits. I built all skeletons together and mirroring each other. Sure, I had to think things through, but I speculate that the enforced reflection before assembling/building the right side may have forced discipline onto a situation where I otherwise might have impulsively moved forward thinking I already knew what I was doing. I suspect that I would have made more errors if I relied on right-side drawings.

The current situation has worked really well for the way my brain and personality work. But, I truly do think it will depend on a builder's brain. I know three-dimensional, spatial vision widely varies. So does a person's susceptibility to impulsive behavior.

 

[Alphalpha]

And, to be clear the intent of my post wasn't do much about interpreting how to build left and right versions but rather how to track that each step was done for left and right. And yes, I am using an L and R for this now but frankly the fact that the plans did not include these as separate checklist items tells me they haven't fully thought through how the KAI is supposed to function.

I myself fell prey to this as I found myself skimming the text and building by image only. After a few errors I am now slowing down and reviewing each step for completion, for possible omissions or errors and for possible sequence issues that I need to consider. An example I just noticed is I am priming the inside skins but I just realized that I also need to prime the outside skins where they lie under an overlap.

And this needs to be done for both left and right versions where such exists. We are checklist oriented in aviation so let's make the checklists complete if we are going to use them.

 

[RVbySDI]

I have had zero problems with the right/left issue after completing the tail and both wings (except the starboard coves) and even wonder if the current situation has its benefits. I built all skeletons together and mirroring each other. Sure, I had to think things through, but I speculate that the enforced reflection before assembling/building the right side may have forced discipline onto a situation where I otherwise might have impulsively moved forward thinking I already knew what I was doing. I suspect that I would have made more errors if I relied on right-side drawings.

The current situation has worked really well for the way my brain and personality work. But, I truly do think it will depend on a builder's brain. I know three-dimensional, spatial vision widely varies. So does a person's susceptibility to impulsive behavior.

My comments were not in reference to the pictures only showing left wing construction. That can be an issue but as Scott mentioned, past RVs only showed left wing drawings. The problem arises when the KAI not only shows just the left wing but also does not reflect the difference in part numbers that end up being different than the part numbers that are for the right wing. I don’t think it is necessary for left and right wing drawings on a particular KAI, what is beneficial though is to have the list of parts for each specific KAI to list the left wing parts and the right wing parts for that KAI. Anytime the KAI is used to construct a left and right part and those left and right parts have different part numbers, the left, and right part numbers should be listed on that KAI.

 

[Louise Hose]

My comments were not in reference to the pictures only showing left wing construction. That can be an issue but as Scott mentioned, past RVs only showed left wing drawings. The problem arises when the KAI not only shows just the left wing but also does not reflect the difference in part numbers that end up being different than the part numbers that are for the right wing. I don’t think it is necessary for left and right wing drawings on a particular KAI, what is beneficial though is to have the list of parts for each specific KAI to list the left wing parts and the right wing parts for that KAI. Anytime the KAI is used to construct a left and right part and those left and right parts have different part numbers, the left, and right part numbers should be listed on that KAI.

I get that, Steve. But, page 2 of each KAI does show the corresponding part numbers for left and right. Obviously, it could be made simpler but, like Scott, I'm surprised it is such a notable issue among multiple offenders. And, simpler might mean more errors by people like me due to complacency.

 

[rocketman1988]

Honestly, why is this even an issue? The KAIs are digital; it costs nothing to include a right side drawing.

If you want to analyze how to mirror the parts then don’t look at the right side picture. I think it would be helpful to have just to verify your mirrored thinking is correct.

Personally, I’m a blueprint guy not a LEGO guy…but I’m learning !

 

[GaryK]

I haven’t started any work on my RV-15 kit yet so you guys are making me nervous.
Especially those that have built an RV previously, because in the entire model history, every construction manual / KAI has only included drawings for one of the two wings.
I’m starting to wonder if I can even build this thing

The mirrored drawings just make it easier as a quick double check on flange direction, parts orientation, etc... You don't need them, just makes it a little easier. You also don't need a pneumatic rivet gun, deburring wheels, Tungston bucking bars, etc, etc....