What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Is the risk worth it?

Status
Not open for further replies.
My take: To all, be aware that whenever you post a comment, question, opinion, or VIDEO on this web site, it will be subject to dissection, intense scrutiny, criticism, and a flurry of opinions on the subject. Most are of a helpful nature, but several are over the line in that "It's my way or the highway!" I think if you are "thin-skinned", caution on what you post.
PS I think pilots are, by nature, risk takers so occasionally NOT doing things by the "book" happens and to some degee will continue to take place. ( I happen to know you can do rolls in an erocoupe) :eek: I'm doin' duck & cover now!
 
Not applicable

Mel,

This test flight took place in the UK. I don't know anything about the LAA, except that they are not subject to FARs.

Mel said:
Paragraph (16) in the operating limitations for experimental amateur-built aircraft states that
"Aerobatics must not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable and in compliance with paragraph 91.319(b)."
Basically what this means is that all other flight testing must be completed prior to aerobatic testing. This is FAA AFS-640 interpretation.
Click to expand...
 
I know!

My point was that most people here are building in the US, and they are the ones "learning" from this forum.
 
Mel said:
My point was that most people here are building in the US, and they are the ones "learning" from this forum.
Click to expand...

I'd pipe up and say for the fair number of Canadian builders here too, aerobatics are strictly prohibited on the first flight and until you have the aerobatic approval in place for that matter on your specific aircraft.
 
Each to His Own

Folks,
Before adding my first fllight opinions to this thread - hopefully for those relatively low time pilots planning their first RV flight - here's a summary of of my credentials:
* 7200 flight hours - mostly in single seat Navy jets.
* Member of the Society of Experimentall Test Pilots since 1990
* During non-critical test flights, never considered the flight complete without pulling at least 4 G's and going inverted (allegedly even on cross country flights under radar control)

Would I be comfortable doing a roll on 1st flight - Yes.? Will I - No?

My first flight will be done in view of a small number of carefully selected supporters near the airport. It will consist of data gathering taxi, take-off, climb, 45 degree AOB turns achieved in 15 degress AOB increments, slow flight to projected Vs + 5 achieved in 10 KT decrements from slow cruise, landing pattern practice at altitude, desent and landing.

20 minutes max.

Park, take off the cowl and check everything - then get on the phone and invite friends and strap hangers for the next "public" first flight later that day.

Each to his own - but the above is all I need to prove on my first flight. After all, just like the PA announcement for the first unmanned airline passenger flight: Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong........
 
RV phase I testing is more production test than experimental test, I totally agree. However, unless the RV was built without modification, which very few are (my opinion), the pilot moves closer to the experimental side of the line vice production.

Small changes to fairings, wheel pant alignment, cowlings, wing tips, blah, blah should not be assumed to be inconsequential and can and HAVE led to changes in handling qualities. Often when least expected.

So if you ASSUME your airplane will fly like every other currently flying RV and you have modified your plane in ANY way...you are adding risk that you most likely have not assesed. The ONLY real way to safely assess this risk is to fly in a build-up fashion until you expand the envelolpe to your desired limits.

Some of you may feel it is ok for the pilot/builder to assume this risk himself. I personally disagree, unless he/she can ensure nobody else will get hurt. Even so, the bad PR resulting from an accident, one that was avoidable through more cautious testing, hurts us all.

For those in the US - Mel has it right. It is illegal. Why is it illegal? Hmmm because people have killed themselves conducting aerbatics before they or their airplanes were ready.

Seriously - is it really that hard to fly a simple profile for a couple of hours knowing you have the life of the airframe ahead of you to fly all the aerobatics you want?

If you don't think phase I is about ENSURING the airplane is airworthy, then what is it for? The inspection and sign-off merely gives you are higher probability of airworthiness. The phase-I proves it - especially the first flight.
Phase I is about airworthiness, not legal airworthiness, but rather real airworthiness.

Please be cautious!
 
This thread is enlightening to me, because I just saw the video for the first time, then stumbled upon this thread. Axle, you nailed what I was thinking. No checklist, no runup, no preflight checks, etc. I would've guessed it was at LEAST several hours past the first flight based on the carefree nature of the pilot. Admittedly, beyond the video I know nothing of the airplane or the pilot...but reading it was the "first flight" raised a lot of red flags for me.

I did the first flight on my RV, and in retrospect I probably shouldn't have. My brain was going a million miles an hour and I was stressed beyond belief. I'm a low-time pilot with ~500 hours, so I'm sure I'm nowhere near the qualifications of most of you. Maybe I'm way off base with my observations.

I specifically take note to the checklist issue mentioned early on in this thread. I spent 8 years in the Navy working on F/A-18s and it was beat into our heads to always go by the checklist. There's a reason for that! Granted we're not in the military with our RV's, so memorizing a checklist is fine for some. I had the great fortune to fly my airplane with an ex-Marine fighter pilot. He went by the checklist, too. Just sayin'...
 
lostpilot28 said:
This thread is enlightening to me, because I just saw the video for the first time, then stumbled upon this thread. Axle, you nailed what I was thinking. No checklist, no runup, no preflight checks, etc. I would've guessed it was at LEAST several hours past the first flight based on the carefree nature of the pilot. Admittedly, beyond the video I know nothing of the airplane or the pilot...but reading it was the "first flight" raised a lot of red flags for me.
Click to expand...

You need to watch the video again. Time & what takes place is edited between startup and takeoff. Checklist could be on the seat. Checklist could be on the MFD. In fact, the flight is edited for time in several places.
Possibly........the pilot makes it look easy, thanks to 15,000 hrs. I didn't see these red flags, and also noticed the "edits" between frames.

This a major problem with this thread. People are getting carried away, by what they don't see. We don't see it all..........because it was edited out, or not videoed in the first place. There is a lot of jumping to conclusions here.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
My take on this thread and the video is a bit more romantic.

First off, I don't think it was Mike's first flight a RV and perhaps not the first flight in this RV. It appeared to be a first "video" flight.

Second, he did run a check list - a flow pattern check. Such was the norm before the written checklist. The pilot checked every switch, instrument and radio in an organized manner. It was a memory exercise as late as the 1950-60's in the USAF. We had a written checklist but were expected to know the preflight from memory and could not use the written checklist as a crutch. I'd guess British fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain did it likewise in the fall of 1940. The system was not fool proof, even Douglas Bader wrecked a Hurricane when he took off the prop set to course pitch. :)

The video is great. The pilot is calm, knows his stuff and flew the airplane with precision. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

We live in an era where everything has being regulated from flying airplanes to blood pressure. Somedays it's refreshing and fun to turn the clock back a bit and see how it was in a different time. Pilots definitely had more fun in times past. I am trying to still have fun even with the use of check list on every flight. It is the norm today so I do it but it would be easy to revert back to the old way. The RV is not all that complicated, you can't land gear up in it, thank goodness. :)
 
L.Adamson said:
You need to watch the video again. Time & what takes place is edited between startup and takeoff. Checklist could be on the seat. Checklist could be on the MFD. In fact, the flight is edited for time in several places.
Possibly........the pilot makes it look easy, thanks to 15,000 hrs. I didn't see these red flags, and also noticed the "edits" between frames.

This a major problem with this thread. People are getting carried away, by what they don't see. We don't see it all..........because it was edited out, or not videoed in the first place. There is a lot of jumping to conclusions here.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
Click to expand...

Hi Larry, I only watched it once...and you're right, I didn't catch the edits. But my initial thought was just what I posted. I'm not concluding that he didn't use checklists, only that the video doesn't appear that he did. The only comparison I have to make with this "first flight" is my own experience which was significantly different. But, maybe that's the difference between me and an experienced pilot. :)
 
Some people love rules and regulations, some people love airplanes!
At my airline, and I'll bet at most others, the rules and regs guys wind up in management and the airplane guys fly the line!:D
 
I think there is a life lesson somewhere in there.

jthocker said:
Some people love rules and regulations, some people love airplanes!
At my airline, and I'll bet at most others, the rules and regs guys wind up in management and the airplane guys fly the line!:D
Click to expand...

I have never met anybody that achieved any degree of success who didnt love what they did and take risks while doing it. I still have a healthy respect for the rules and regs, but....I am glad aviation is just a hobby for me.

The only thing I noticed in the video, is the airplane must have been an A model as it appeared little attention was being paid to stick position during taxi. Yes, it appeared to be a no wind day, but....

Oh, and if you think I will ever post an in cockpit video of me flying, think again...I would be an easy target.
I'll keep out of the rest of the arguments. Been here, seen them, done that...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top