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Is a Nav Receiver Required for IFR Today?

DRMA

Well Known Member
Friend
I'm looking for opinions from current IFR rated pilots and CFII's regarding the need for a VOR/ILS navigation receiver for IFR operations with a modern G3X panel with Garmin 625 navigator.

With GPS navigation and modern ADSB, is it worth spending the additional ~$5000 to include a VOR/ILS receiver (e.g. a Garmin 650 instead of the 625) in the panel for the RV-10 that I am building? I've asked a few people and received mixed responses. If the VOR/ILS is going the way of the NDB, I don't want to spend big bucks to install one in my panel and not use it.

Thanks
Dave Macdonald
 
Well, there certainly are aircraft that are flying ifr with just gps. But not me.
1. I want backup. Not a 650 instead of 625, but a separate box.
2. $5K is way out of bounds. Half that will get you a nav and a second com.
3. I personally have shot an ILS near minimums, where the GPS approach minimums were 100' higher and would not have gotten us in.
4. You cannot take the ifr test with just a gps, nor can you take an IPC.
 
Well, there certainly are aircraft that are flying ifr with just gps. But not me.
1. I want backup. Not a 650 instead of 625, but a separate box.
2. $5K is way out of bounds. Half that will get you a nav and a second com.
3. I personally have shot an ILS near minimums, where the GPS approach minimums were 100' higher and would not have gotten us in.
4. You cannot take the ifr test with just a gps, nor can you take an IPC.
Completely agree. I also want backup not just additional capability in one box.

FWIW I have a G430W (gives me GPS/ILS/VOR/LOC) as primary but also have a VAL INS-429 (gives me ILS/VOR/LOC) as my backup. The VAL cost less than $1,800.00 and is a very good piece of equipment.

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Ground based navigation for IFR

Not required with TSO C146c equipment for the United States. Still required in Canada. I'm GPS only (4 receivers on board) and fly IFR. I am very conservative and will delay or forgo a flight for benign conditions. I carry and have practiced ILS approaches with a hand held Sporty's SP-400 mounted to be in my line of sight. Works well. I get my flight review through work, so my setup works for me.
 
I love GPS, but it is still controlled and operated by the military which makes it a strategic asset and target.
I have flown airliners where the GPS went "poof" and disappeared. Once was a planned and NOTAM'd outage near White Sands NM and the other near the CA/OR border that was not preannounced and even took controllers by surprise.
The stand alone individuality of the ground based VOR/ILS system is what makes the collective network so dependable as it has been for decades.
 
I'm looking for opinions from current IFR rated pilots and CFII's regarding the need for a VOR/ILS navigation receiver for IFR operations with a modern G3X panel with Garmin 625 navigator.

With GPS navigation and modern ADSB, is it worth spending the additional ~$5000 to include a VOR/ILS receiver (e.g. a Garmin 650 instead of the 625) in the panel for the RV-10 that I am building? I've asked a few people and received mixed responses. If the VOR/ILS is going the way of the NDB, I don't want to spend big bucks to install one in my panel and not use it.

Thanks
Dave Macdonald

I was researching the same topic as you a couple of months ago and my EAA buddies gave me all kinds of answers. I then called the FSDO in San Antonio which was very helpful and the guy I spoke with was definitely a friend of the experimental world. I am not IFR rated and asked him the same question.

I am at that state in my build that I am making the same decisions. He stated that one can get their IFR certification and fly GPS approaches with only a certified GPS installed in the aircraft. I am not well versed in the IFR lingo but their are two standard typical GPS approaches and to get your certification you have to fly three. The third is a GPS overlay on a VOR approach. They are not as common and he stated that I will have to take that into account when selecting an examiner. I will have to pick one that is in the general area to one of these approaches.

I am not going to be a hard IFR pilot. If a VOR will get me 100' foot lower then I will have to postpone my flight. The way I understand it is that the VORs are slowing being attritioned out of service. If the GPS's are a military target and they are affected, the airspace will be shut down anyway just like they did in 2001. He also told me that more and more of the GPS overlay approaches will be installed at airports as the VOR's disappear.

After his comments, I plan to install a Garmin 625 that I picked up new for $5500. The components in the EFIS will supply the rest of the equipment necessary for the IFR flight.
 
It is quite common for there to be planned GPS jamming in White Sands, NM. I work as a controller in this area and we see this about 1 period a month - usually for about 3 days. Most aircraft do have their GPS drop off line for a few hundred miles. We have been instructed that if IMC conditions exist, and an aircraft HAS to do an IFR GPS approach, it might be able to be suspended. That said, I've never seen that happen. There are usually easier alternatives.
Many aircraft are on direct routes these days and when the GPS signal is jammed many aircraft are issued an assigned heading until within range of the next VOR.
 
Paul,
Interesting answer you got from the local FSDO guy. The front of the instrument PTS lists the different kinds of approaches, and 'GPS overlay' is not one of them. After all, it is just a LNAV approach that happens to coincide with a VOR approach. I suspect that sooner or later the FAA will change this rule to accommodate gps-only airplanes, but for now I don't think this inspector's interpretation would stand up in DC.
 
If the GPS's are a military target and they are affected, the airspace will be shut down anyway just like they did in 2001.

As written this is not true. If it were written airspace "may" be shut down, then yes.

I see GPS unavailable, or scrambled where your gps location is in error significantly at work quite often. Usually it is notamed and known in advance, but on occasion pops up without warning.

Mark
 
The GPS satellite system is controlled by the military now, but starting in 2020, when GPS position data becomes the standard for ATC traffic separation, it will not. After that date, if the GPS system is taken down (by the military/president) it will be because of something bad, and nobody will be flying, even those with a lowly VOR/ILS receiver. If you need to shoot an approach to 1/2 mile vis in your Homebuilt where there is not an LPV choice with precision approach criteria, then by all means, install the VHF NAV system. You might want to consider the cost of that capability.
 
Thanks To All Who Responded

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question.

I suspect that ILS approach capability is still frequently used today. But like my old NDB receiver in my current plane, it sounds like over time many of the VOR/ILS stations will disappear and GPS approaches will become the norm. That said, the question is how quickly this will happen.

Perhaps a solution might be to go ahead and install the Nav antennas in my vertical stabilizer now, and hold off on the decision regarding the receiver until my build is at the point of buying the avionics and building the panel?

One thought as a way to save some money might be to install a used nav receiver, but I think that would might require cutting a round hole in the panel and installing the old style ILS display. Guess I'll have to do some research to see if the G3X system will accept the info from older stand alone receivers and incorporate it into an on-screen ILS display.

Cheers,
Dave M.
 
Think about a used SL30. Still the best nav com ever built. It displays on most EFIS units although I don't know if the G3X can display both channels (SL30 can receive two VORs simultaneously). You can save a few dollars by going with an Archer wingtip antenna, fair to good for VOR, works fine for ILS.

But, it is too soon to buy anything. Nothing changes faster than avionics. Hold off on buying as long as you can.
 
I am at that state in my build that I am making the same decisions. He stated that one can get their IFR certification and fly GPS approaches with only a certified GPS installed in the aircraft.

Just to be clear, there is no such thing as IFR certification for the aircraft. Your OPLIMs should state your aircraft is to be flown VFR unless equipped IAW with 91.205. Plus you need to comply with the 91.411 for the static system inspection, and although technically not required by regs for IFR flight, for practical reasons you also need a transponder and meet 91.413 for its inspection.

I am not well versed in the IFR lingo but their are two standard typical GPS approaches and to get your certification you have to fly three. The third is a GPS overlay on a VOR approach. They are not as common and he stated that I will have to take that into account when selecting an examiner. I will have to pick one that is in the general area to one of these approaches.

OK, To get your rating, you have to fly 3 approaches (1 precision and 2 non-precision), not 3 GPS approaches. The requirements are clearly spelled out in the PTS but here's the highlights:
-- The non-precision approaches must use two different types of navigational aids.
-- Acceptable Nonprecision approaches include: VOR, LOC procedures on an ILS, LDA, RNAV (RNP) or RNAV (GPS) to LNAV, LNAV/VNAV or LPV line of minima as long as the LPV DA is greater than 300 feet HAT.
-- Acceptable precision approaches include ILS or (RNAV) GPS LPV line of minima as long as the LPV DA is less than 300 feet HAT.

The bottom line, as already mentioned, is you can't get your rating in an aircraft only equipped with an IFR GPS -- you have to have another means of radio navigation.

Finally, for those playing along, for IFR flight, to go GPS only the IFR GPS has to be a TSO 145/146 WAAS box. If it's a TSO 129/196 box then you have to have anther means of navigation suitable to the route flown, which in practical terms means a Nav radio.

I am not going to be a hard IFR pilot. If a VOR will get me 100' foot lower then I will have to postpone my flight. The way I understand it is that the VORs are slowing being attritioned out of service. If the GPS's are a military target and they are affected, the airspace will be shut down anyway just like they did in 2001. He also told me that more and more of the GPS overlay approaches will be installed at airports as the VOR's disappear.

The days of GPS overlays are over --the overlays were introduced as a quick way to get GPS approaches into the system (after all they are, or were, just existing VOR approaches flown with the GPS to the same MDA). The overlays are now disappearing as stand alone RNAV (GPS) approaches with TAAs and lower minimums replace the overlays.

For the foreseeable future at the minimum the FAA will retain a VOR network called the MON (Minimum Operational Network). There is also no wholesale movement to decommission ILS's that I'm aware of.
 
....But, it is too soon to buy anything. Nothing changes faster than avionics. Hold off on buying as long as you can.

That's the best advise. I THOUGHT I was going to have the latest and greatest, then Garmin released the G5.

One of side benefits of GPS only is I never make a mistake on what source I'm flying. It's really simplified IFR. That, and a great autopilot.
 
One of side benefits of GPS only is I never make a mistake on what source I'm flying. It's really simplified IFR. That, and a great autopilot.

With an EFIS HSI it's dang near impossible to make a source mistake IMO. If the CDI is magenta it's GPS; if it's green it's VOR/LOC and if you have multiple sources of each it annunciates GPS, VOR1, VOR2, LOC, etc. Pretty simple. After a few years of flying behind a G1000 and a G3X/GTN650/SL30 combo, I've never had a source selection issue. YMMV....
 
With an EFIS HSI it's dang near impossible to make a source mistake IMO. If the CDI is magenta it's GPS; if it's green it's VOR/LOC and if you have multiple sources of each it annunciates GPS, VOR1, VOR2, LOC, etc. Pretty simple. After a few years of flying behind a G1000 and a G3X/GTN650/SL30 combo, I've never had a source selection issue. YMMV....

Unfortunately this is not always true. As a cfii, I've seen both instrument students and rated pilots fly thinking they were on VOR but were on GPS, or vice versa. Both EFIS and conventional panels. When you get overloaded a bit, apparently it's easy to ignore the color coding, or the words VLOC or ILS!
 
I received a PM from jimbo. Jimbo, your PM box is full. I cannot reply. Call me at three6one-6four9-twentyfifty.
 
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