Cth6
Well Known Member
Email just came out about an issue with the EchoUAT requiring an encoder to be added. More info at https://uavionix.com/echouat-update
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Important Update for Your echoUAT Installation
- Thread starter Cth6
- Start date
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
So,, this means any ECHO UAT that receives a "sniff " from the GTX 327 antenna for pressure altitude is now not good enough for experimental ADSB out? Looks like the encoder Av is providing is also an pressure altitude encoder??
Maybe I read it wrong?
Maybe I read it wrong?
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Echo UAT
No Clue. There is not much of an explanation anywhere. I just filled out the form and will wait and see what happens. I have the Echo: Choice 1. Install an echoAlt Altitude Encoder. For easy integration, we will provide you with an altitude encoder (echoAlt), wiring harness, and associated echoUAT firmware FREE OF CHARGE. These encoders are currently in production and will begin shipping in January 20 I think they should issue a better explanation than what is on the sign-in sheet.
They have a picture of the new echoALT that appears to have a portal for the pitot/static system so, apparently, will need to be connected. That MIGHT mean it will go behind the panel.... And a wiring harness that will need to be connected to......???
No Clue. There is not much of an explanation anywhere. I just filled out the form and will wait and see what happens. I have the Echo: Choice 1. Install an echoAlt Altitude Encoder. For easy integration, we will provide you with an altitude encoder (echoAlt), wiring harness, and associated echoUAT firmware FREE OF CHARGE. These encoders are currently in production and will begin shipping in January 20 I think they should issue a better explanation than what is on the sign-in sheet.
They have a picture of the new echoALT that appears to have a portal for the pitot/static system so, apparently, will need to be connected. That MIGHT mean it will go behind the panel....
And a wiring harness that will need to be connected to......???
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Cth6
Well Known Member
Transponder Mode
I read this ....
This most frequently happens in fringe or non-existent radar coverage, where the Mode C reply is not available.
as. When not being interrogated for Mode C (Pressure Alt), the transponder is only sharing Mode A (Squawk). I am guessing that the Echo doesn't respond correctly when Mode C stops.
Just a guess.....
I read this ....
This most frequently happens in fringe or non-existent radar coverage, where the Mode C reply is not available.
as. When not being interrogated for Mode C (Pressure Alt), the transponder is only sharing Mode A (Squawk). I am guessing that the Echo doesn't respond correctly when Mode C stops.
Just a guess.....
That is what I am guessing too. The dedicated encoder will allow the Echo to transmit altitude information even when outside of radar coverage (when not sniffing it from the transponder). I wish they provided a more detailed reasoning for this.
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Not sure that's the case. Because on Flight Aware you can get altitude and speed data plot for UATs , mine always has consistent Altitude and position data regardless if I am in ATC coverage or not. The Echo seems to squak position and altitude requardless of ATC coverage. 327 gets hardwire altitude off the Dynon RS 232 . The transponder and the ADS B are required to get altitude from the same source. ???/
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Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Whaaaaaaaaat???
I sent an email to support saying there was a LARGE NUMBER of confused pilots with their brief posting. We do NOT need to be guessing but, with the very limited amount of information we have been given, that is what is happening. We shall see what reply they give. I would imagine their server is pretty HOT right now!
I sent an email to support saying there was a LARGE NUMBER of confused pilots with their brief posting. We do NOT need to be guessing but, with the very limited amount of information we have been given, that is what is happening. We shall see what reply they give. I would imagine their server is pretty HOT right now!
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Last I read, ADSB out was not required except in Class B and C and inside Mode C rings. ATC radar coverage is solid inside those, altitude should be available every time the radar pings. Why now the concern for outside those but still in ATC radar coverage. That's a lot of coverage area that is now on the table.
You know it has been about 3 years since we all installed that technology, the only thing I know that requires compliance update more often is my Freon and or the entire HVAC system !
You know it has been about 3 years since we all installed that technology, the only thing I know that requires compliance update more often is my Freon and or the entire HVAC system !
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Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
Maybe the FAA is planning for the future. Billing us for the use of all airspace.
RV8JD
Well Known Member
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Yes, and for Class E with your UAT we are Limited to 18000MSL. For class A only ES approved. I believe UAT is only approved for USA.
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Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Reply from uAvionics on the new encoder....
I received a quick reply from uAvionics: The encoder is the size of a matchbook. You unplug the connector from the echo and plug it into the encoder, then plug the encoder into the echo (daisy chain) No wiring necessary.
Hmmmm.....then why is a wiring harness included.....?
There was no mention of what the pitot tube receptacle-appearing area on the picture might be for. I sent another email asking that. My unit is behind the baggage compartment to get it close to the antennae and to have it out of the way. If I have to run a pitot tube back there it will be a major PITA.....
I sent an email to support saying there was a LARGE NUMBER of confused pilots with their brief posting. We do NOT need to be guessing but, with the very limited amount of information we have been given, that is what is happening. We shall see what reply they give. I would imagine their server is pretty HOT right now!
I received a quick reply from uAvionics: The encoder is the size of a matchbook. You unplug the connector from the echo and plug it into the encoder, then plug the encoder into the echo (daisy chain) No wiring necessary.
Hmmmm.....then why is a wiring harness included.....?
There was no mention of what the pitot tube receptacle-appearing area on the picture might be for. I sent another email asking that. My unit is behind the baggage compartment to get it close to the antennae and to have it out of the way. If I have to run a pitot tube back there it will be a major PITA.....
Hmm. I have an echoUAT in my RV-3 and didn’t receive any notice. It’ll be interesting to see if this closes the coverage gap I consistently see between approximately Grand Lake, CO to Steamboat Springs, CO. My Flight Aware data consistently drops off in this gap area whether I’m at 12,500’MSL or 16,500’MSL.
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Seems that I remember uAvionics offering a MUX wire harness at one time that actually integrated an altitude RS232 signal into the Echo along with one of the existing RS232 channels. That was offered to minimize a change over from the Navworks device which has altitude input. I see that still offered on the uA site, wonder how this new SB may address those who have added that altitude signal in that way.
Is your PAPR showing a coverage gap too, or only FlightAware? Since FlightAware doesn't have a very strong 978/UAT ADS-B receiver network, it's not too surprising that you're finding gaps in their coverage.
Please pardon the correction...
Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
Thanks for the correction
WingsOnWheels
Well Known Member
I sent them an e-mail asking that question today. I am using the MUX. All my xponder and Alt data is already going to the echo over serial (nothing sniffed). Their encoder would be very redundant and probably make the whole arrangement less accurate. Add to that, my Echo is way out in the right wing, so running a static line out there would be annoying, so that means the plug and play wiring wouldn't work...etc.
To note, the MUX takes in the serial data from the xponder (GTX330 for me) for squawk and serial altitude data from the encoder (or in my case the dynon skyview) and combines them into a single stream for the echo. Works awesome. Only issue I ever had with the echo was when I accidentally changed a setting while messing around on the app and didn't realize it.
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BH1166
Well Known Member
Thanks Michael/Roadjunkie1. Yep, mine behind bulkhead too, same reason. If indeed a daisy chain/inline device, simple….happy no visits under panel !
Flight aware is not a reliable source for UAT data. They depend on ground base stations which have gaps, has no effect on ADSB out/in, just not in there network to share.
Flight aware is not a reliable source for UAT data. They depend on ground base stations which have gaps, has no effect on ADSB out/in, just not in there network to share.
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Walt
Well Known Member
Yes that is correct:
"The barometric altitude used for the ADS-B broadcast must be from the same altitude source as the barometric altitude used for the ATC transponder Mode C reply, if an altitude-encoding transponder is installed in the aircraft."
ADS-B Encoder Source
Interesting problem. My EchoUAT gets it's encoder information directly from my GRT EFIS. That source is shared with the encoder. I am using the MUX. All my xponder and Alt data is already going to the echo over serial (nothing sniffed). So I'm assuming this notice doesn't apply to me.
Interesting problem. My EchoUAT gets it's encoder information directly from my GRT EFIS. That source is shared with the encoder. I am using the MUX. All my xponder and Alt data is already going to the echo over serial (nothing sniffed). So I'm assuming this notice doesn't apply to me.
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Reply from uAvionix
I thought the brief notice was quite clear as to why. Mode C from transponders have proven too unreliable (delay) to meet the intent of ADSB-Out.
As for altitude source, following is an email conversation with tech support (that definitely seems in conflict with the rule Walt mentioned):
"We currently do not have a way to connect the serial altitude data from the D10-A.
The echoALT update will be required even if you have an altitude source. This will be used as a backup in case the one that you have fails.
Thank you,
Rebekah Gambrell
uAvionix Technical Support
---- on Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:41:36 -0800 "Finn Lassen" wrote ----
Thank you.
Actually I have a question. Currently I feed the altitude from my Dynon D-10A to my transponder.
Is there any way the echo can use that same serial altitude data from from the D-10A?
That way I won't have to worry about altitude discrepancies between the D-10A and the echoALT.
Finn"
So it seems that the Mode-C altitude will be used when available. If it drops out the echoALT is used. So it appears we need to be prepared for seeing ADSB-In reported aircraft altitudes "jump" randomly for aircraft using the echoUAT?
I assume that uAvionix has cleared their solution with FAA.
Finn
I thought the brief notice was quite clear as to why. Mode C from transponders have proven too unreliable (delay) to meet the intent of ADSB-Out.
As for altitude source, following is an email conversation with tech support (that definitely seems in conflict with the rule Walt mentioned):
"We currently do not have a way to connect the serial altitude data from the D10-A.
The echoALT update will be required even if you have an altitude source. This will be used as a backup in case the one that you have fails.
Thank you,
Rebekah Gambrell
uAvionix Technical Support
---- on Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:41:36 -0800 "Finn Lassen" wrote ----
Thank you.
Actually I have a question. Currently I feed the altitude from my Dynon D-10A to my transponder.
Is there any way the echo can use that same serial altitude data from from the D-10A?
That way I won't have to worry about altitude discrepancies between the D-10A and the echoALT.
Finn"
So it seems that the Mode-C altitude will be used when available. If it drops out the echoALT is used. So it appears we need to be prepared for seeing ADSB-In reported aircraft altitudes "jump" randomly for aircraft using the echoUAT?
I assume that uAvionix has cleared their solution with FAA.
Finn
Wow. That's in conflict with uAvionix's answer. I assume there's no difference between outputs from D-10A EFIS and GRT EFIS.
How did you wire that?
Finn
AX-O
Well Known Member
Is this what you are thinking? https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1305917&postcount=446
I did not receive any comm from Uavionix about this.
But isn't that same method used in the wingtip and tail UAT's? Does that mean they too will need an independent alt encoder?
Per the uAvionix data sheet, the skyBeacon already contains a "static pressure sensor and encoder".
https://uavionix.com/downloads/skybeacon/skyBeacon-TSO-Data-Sheet.pdf
So that implies that the FAA allows independent alt encoder sources for ADS-B and transponders.
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The SkyBeacon and TailBeacon have integral baro encoders. The Echo does not.
The uAvionics transcoder, aka "sniffer", system has a couple of limiting drawbacks. One being that without a direct connection to the transponder, baro (pressure altitude) cannot be derived without a transponder reply. The transponder will not emit a reply, Mode A or Mode C, unless interrogated by a secondary RADAR or an active TCAS system. The MOPS for ADS-B Out requires, as Walt said, baro alt from the same source as the transponder, and two of the required data elements of an ADS-B transmission are squawk and pressure altitude. So, the ADS-B unit will transmit once per second (1hz), unless required data elements are missing...
But, wait, ARSR (enroute center RADAR), takes about 14 seconds to make a sweep, so how does that add up? The MOPS allows a 'lookback' of up to 90 seconds (IIRC) on the squawk code (Mode A) sent by the transponder. But, that doesn't solve the baro problem. Apparently, uAvionix, along with a couple of other manufacturers, got an exception to use an alternate baro source to act as a backup for the transponder Mode C. The backup source is considered the same as the transponder Mode C because the ADS-B unit constantly compares the two sources (along with a GPS altitude comparative algorithym)
A note about ADS-B airspace: The ADS-B required airspace areas become academic as soon as the ADS-B is installed, because part 91.225 (f) requires the ADS-B system to be operated "in the transmit mode at all times"
But, wait, ARSR (enroute center RADAR), takes about 14 seconds to make a sweep, so how does that add up? The MOPS allows a 'lookback' of up to 90 seconds (IIRC) on the squawk code (Mode A) sent by the transponder. But, that doesn't solve the baro problem. Apparently, uAvionix, along with a couple of other manufacturers, got an exception to use an alternate baro source to act as a backup for the transponder Mode C. The backup source is considered the same as the transponder Mode C because the ADS-B unit constantly compares the two sources (along with a GPS altitude comparative algorithym)
A note about ADS-B airspace: The ADS-B required airspace areas become academic as soon as the ADS-B is installed, because part 91.225 (f) requires the ADS-B system to be operated "in the transmit mode at all times"
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DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Yes, AX O that's it, I believe it was actually a serial port expander to supply an extra string of data into the ECHO ( ie altitude) when the other available ports were being used for SKYFX WAAS ant and squawk code. I was one of those who installed NAVWORKS early in the game and it required and had provisions for Altitude RS232 input.
The MUX was offered by uA to me when I was having problems getting continuous ALT data on initially installing the ECHO. ( The ECHO was my replacement for a NW 600 EXP ).
The sniff for altitude was resolved upon finding out about the threshold adjustment and has worked very well since then. So I placed the MUX in the drawer where it still resides!
I fly in the Southeast so rarely ever out of ATC radar coverage and usually never above 10,000ft so I don't see the ALT problem drop out that others in higher elevation or mid cont see. At least that's my thoughts.
With the later post and the understanding that the encoder will be back up to the existing method of ALT acquisition. Think I will just install the encoder and move on . If the Dynon ( primary source ) of ALT is lost you can see that from the pressure altitude on the GRT327, And still be assured the encoder is providing ALT to the ADSB.
moosepileit
Well Known Member
The early, now discontinued, Non-TSO EXP Beacons did not have a built in encoder. They may now, but the baro encoder came out with the TSO'd Beacons.
If EchoUAT folks must upgrade, why not the Exp beacons?
I had an early EXP. It failed, I asked for and got a TSO'd beacon when I noticed the added encoder.
If EchoUAT folks must upgrade, why not the Exp beacons?
I had an early EXP. It failed, I asked for and got a TSO'd beacon when I noticed the added encoder.
Not meaning to hijack this thread, but this seems somewhat relevant, talking about uAvionix. It seems the Echo app on my phone has been updated (I don't recall being asked), and now it looks a lot different. I can't figure out how to get to the 'deeper level' of the app to adjust the transponder threshold like I could before. Can someone tell me how this is accomplished in the new app?
The link and instructions on the website appears to show the 'old' app. And it never did explain how to get to the transponder threshold adjustment page. I believe I read how to do it on VAF ........... go figure!
Thanks in advance for any help!
The link and instructions on the website appears to show the 'old' app. And it never did explain how to get to the transponder threshold adjustment page. I believe I read how to do it on VAF ........... go figure!
Thanks in advance for any help!
Stevea
Well Known Member
To get to the advanced page (to set the transponder threshold value) on the new app, three taps on the Echo logo in the top left corner.
And yea, the website still shows the old app version. FYI, step 6 on the list (tap two fingers simultaneously) was how you got to the advanced page settings in that version.
Roy Thoma
Well Known Member
Please send request for an addition option to uAvionix
I sent the following to uAvionix. It would be great if there were enough additional requests to uAvionix that add an option to upgrade to the tailBeaxonX without having to buy a AV-20-E or AV-30-E. Modify your request to match your EFIS.
Regarding options for echoUAT owners to "ensure consistent performance wherever you fly" PLEASE offer an option for Virtual Trade-up for a tailBeaconX without an AV-20-E or AV-30-E. I expect that many if not most experimental planes with an echoUAT have an EFIS that can talk with a tailBeaconX. I would appreciate an option for JUST a Virtual Trade-up for a tailBeaconX that I can control from my AFS5600 using STX 165R protocol. I don't have any round instruments in my panel and don't have space to add a round instrument/display.
I sent the following to uAvionix. It would be great if there were enough additional requests to uAvionix that add an option to upgrade to the tailBeaxonX without having to buy a AV-20-E or AV-30-E. Modify your request to match your EFIS.
Regarding options for echoUAT owners to "ensure consistent performance wherever you fly" PLEASE offer an option for Virtual Trade-up for a tailBeaconX without an AV-20-E or AV-30-E. I expect that many if not most experimental planes with an echoUAT have an EFIS that can talk with a tailBeaconX. I would appreciate an option for JUST a Virtual Trade-up for a tailBeaconX that I can control from my AFS5600 using STX 165R protocol. I don't have any round instruments in my panel and don't have space to add a round instrument/display.
Roy Thoma
Well Known Member
Option added
Either my email was very convincing and/or others voiced a similar idea.
I just recieved and email from Shane at uAvionix that said:
Hi Roy,
We just added the standalone tailBeaconX Trade Up options. You'd receive $750 for your echoUAT and get to keep it as an ADS-B In unit as well. Please revisit the online form and now you can select the standalone tailBeaconX option.
https://uavionix.com/echouat-update/
Regards,
Either my email was very convincing and/or others voiced a similar idea.
I just recieved and email from Shane at uAvionix that said:
Hi Roy,
We just added the standalone tailBeaconX Trade Up options. You'd receive $750 for your echoUAT and get to keep it as an ADS-B In unit as well. Please revisit the online form and now you can select the standalone tailBeaconX option.
https://uavionix.com/echouat-update/
Regards,
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Server on fire.....
I would imagine they caught quite an amount of grief from all of this. They answered my first question pretty quickly (see post #13) and I asked a second question about hooking it up to the static system; I've heard nothing since. I have a third question about the Dynon D10A not being read by the ECHO......... I might have to tickle them again..... I would imagine they are pretty BUSY.....
I would imagine they caught quite an amount of grief from all of this. They answered my first question pretty quickly (see post #13) and I asked a second question about hooking it up to the static system; I've heard nothing since. I have a third question about the Dynon D10A not being read by the ECHO......... I might have to tickle them again..... I would imagine they are pretty BUSY.....
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
More Information....
Here is my email to uAvionics:
Hey, Lou, Thanks for your quick reply on this confusing issue. That sounds like a simple installation. The pictures of the unit on the application site shows something that looks like it will need to be connected to the pitot system. No? Curious minds want to know. My echo is located behind the baggage compartment and to run a pitot line back there would be a major piece of work. Thanks! Michael
Their reply: You can run it with out connection to the static system
So: maybe it is a plug-and-play daisy chain installation... We shall see.....
Here is my email to uAvionics:
Hey, Lou, Thanks for your quick reply on this confusing issue. That sounds like a simple installation. The pictures of the unit on the application site shows something that looks like it will need to be connected to the pitot system. No? Curious minds want to know. My echo is located behind the baggage compartment and to run a pitot line back there would be a major piece of work. Thanks! Michael
Their reply: You can run it with out connection to the static system
So: maybe it is a plug-and-play daisy chain installation... We shall see.....
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Their reply: You can run it with out connection to the static system
MICHAEL, That's kinda what I was thinking. I've got a Trio altitude hold that's working just fine breathng the same air as I am!
MICHAEL, That's kinda what I was thinking. I've got a Trio altitude hold that's working just fine breathng the same air as I am!
DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
I only fly VFR, so not to concerned about absolute number for altitude that the Trio actually holds, just bump it up or down to get the results I want on Dynon. I guess I could set both to 29.92 and see what the pressure altitude is on the Dynon ie GTX 327 and compare to indicated at 29.92 on the Trio. Never done that.. I think that may indicate the altitude error or diffence in static pressure source. Might be a good test to run in stable air.
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jliltd
Well Known Member
Ahhh. But the devil is in the details. The onerous "always on" language of the ADS-B rule. If an aircraft is equipped with rule-compliant ADS-B out, that equipment must be turned on and operating correctly any time the aircraft is operated in the air or on the surface anywhere in the USA, not just in rule airspace. So when equipped with ADS-B "out" for all intents and purposes the concept of rule airspace becomes irrelevant for that particular aircraft because everywhere has effectively become rule airspace for that aircraft. As an extreme example if you have two Cessnas on a remote airstrip in Alaska and only one of the two is equipped with ADS-B out the equipped aircraft cannot run its engine or taxi on the surface without its ADS-B system being on and operating properly. If that aircraft is operated with its ADS-B system off or out of specifications it is in violation of the rule. In the middle of BFE. Meanwhile the other Cessna without ADS-B out equipment is not in violation of the rule taxiing around the remote airstip and as long as it avoids official rule airspace it does not violate the rule.
jliltd
Well Known Member
What's all this about pitot connections? Second post you have referred to it. Altitude encoders use static pressure only and airspeed indicators are the only instruments that use pitot. So if your Echo is in the baggage area it is actually closer to the staitic source than if the unit was under the instrument panel. A simple inline tee should do it. No pitot system involved.
MacCool
Well Known Member
I'm guessing he meant static system and misspoke.
My EchoUAT is in the wing....I'm just going to plug the new encoder into the wiring harness and not plumb it into the static system. That will save me a LOT of hassle.
What I don't understand is,if you are using an EFIS encoder to provide an input to an echoUAT mux which then provides the echoUAT both the EFIS encoder and transponder signals why do you need another encoder provided by uAvionix daisy chained in?
Also my EFIS encoder is checked every 24 months at my transponder check to ensure accuracy, what about this standalone encoder they are providing that may or may not be hooked to the static system?
Also my EFIS encoder is checked every 24 months at my transponder check to ensure accuracy, what about this standalone encoder they are providing that may or may not be hooked to the static system?
moosepileit
Well Known Member
RV6, Open Cabin Alt static valve, indicates more than 50 but less than 100 feet lower, at cruise. Pitot static IFR to FL180.
Darren Kerns
Well Known Member
Confused
I have the Echo UAT hooked up to my G327 using the Mux wiring harness. Been great.
Can someone help me? Am I suppose to get this little encoder for my RV7?
I plan on doing Option 1. I have no need for the other options.
Just need some guidance because I am in the same boat at Dennis.
Update: Just got word from uAvionix. I must comply.
Thanks
Darren Kerns
RV7 N599DT
I have the Echo UAT hooked up to my G327 using the Mux wiring harness. Been great.
Can someone help me? Am I suppose to get this little encoder for my RV7?
I plan on doing Option 1. I have no need for the other options.
Just need some guidance because I am in the same boat at Dennis.
Update: Just got word from uAvionix. I must comply.
Thanks
Darren Kerns
RV7 N599DT
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Thank you. So less than 100'. I guess that's good enough to ensure separation but combined with other possible static errors it does lower my comfort level a bit. On the other hand much better than no altitude indications from other aircraft via ADSB-In.
Finn
