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IFR Formation Approach?

Pat Hatch

Pat Hatch

Well Known Member
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I wanted to throw this out there. Yesterday when returning from breakfast at Sebring in the RV-6 I encountered IFR weather at my destination, Vero Beach. We had taken off from Sebring as a formation of three RVs. I had filed an IFR flight plan before departing Sebring as the weather in Vero was IFR. I picked up my clearance in the air and we broke up the formation, the other two guys had to go elsewhere to wait out the weather. I'm just wondering what would happen if I had filed as a formation of three and proceded into Vero, shot the approach, etc. Anyone ever done this? I know we used to do it in the Air Force, but have never encountered the possibility in the GA world. It would have been interesting to try! The other two guys were experienced formation/instrument qualified pilots but neither aircraft was IFR capable. Possible?
 
not sure about ifr but I landed up in sanford airport as a formation at night once, i dont think the tower knew what to do with us when we initially called. Both turned base to final and one of us slowed down while the other sped up. I felt comfortable the entire way except when short final as it was hard to pick out the other aircraft landing in front of me.
 
Makes perfect sense. But I guess my point is, what if all 3 aircraft were IFR capable? Is this even possible?
 
Possible or not... If all three planes/pilots are IFR capable and current than get some pop up clearances and be done with it.

How often do you train for IMC Formation Flying?
 
Pat Hatch said:
Makes perfect sense. But I guess my point is, what if all 3 aircraft were IFR capable? Is this even possible?
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You can file and fly IFR in formation. You can even do this with non-instrument pilots and aircraft as wingman IF the entire flight is conducted in VMC. However, to fly the flight in IMC all wingman and aircraft must be appropriately rated/equipped and current for flight in IMC.

Whether or not civilians flying formation in IMC is a smart thing to do is an entirely different discussion…

Skylor
 
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Pat Hatch said:
I wanted to throw this out there. Yesterday when returning from breakfast at Sebring in the RV-6 I encountered IFR weather at my destination, Vero Beach. We had taken off from Sebring as a formation of three RVs. I had filed an IFR flight plan before departing Sebring as the weather in Vero was IFR. I picked up my clearance in the air and we broke up the formation, the other two guys had to go elsewhere to wait out the weather. I'm just wondering what would happen if I had filed as a formation of three and proceded into Vero, shot the approach, etc. Anyone ever done this? I know we used to do it in the Air Force, but have never encountered the possibility in the GA world. It would have been interesting to try! The other two guys were experienced formation/instrument qualified pilots but neither aircraft was IFR capable. Possible?
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I did this many years ago as a flight of two returning to KFFC in S. Atlanta metro area from Triple Tree. I was lead in my 8 and the other was in his 8A. We were both ex AF IP’s, IFR current and capable, and had flown formation many times together.

This was back before I had a capable smart phone, ForeFlight, and cell coverage at TT. I couldn’t even make a call to FSS before departing TT.

We briefed the formation assuming forecasted VFR conditions from earlier that morning. We got to top of climb and I contacted FSS. It was clear that we were not going to be able to complete the flight VFR. The weather began about halfway, about 80 nm from the destination. KFFC weather was 800’ and 5 miles and forecasted to get lower.

I gave my wingman, Steve several choices:

1. Land somewhere and figure out what to do.
2. Split up the formation and individually file IFR.
3. File a two ship IFR flight plan.

He chose #3. I switched us over to Anderson Radio, filed the flight plan, switched to inter-plane, and thoroughly briefed the new plan to include Lost Wingman procedures. Then we switched to ATC and picked up the clearance. ATC confirmed with us that we were indeed a flight of two. Poor Steve was on my wing in the soup for 40 minutes! We were vectored all over creation and finally broke out at 600’ on the ILS.

So yes, it can be done. But it’s important to note that we were both current and qualified. We had also previously flown formation together many times to include full profiles of fingertip up to 90 deg of bank, 2-3g, Close Trail, Extended Trail, rejoins, etc. I guess the only thing we hadn’t previously practiced was Lost Wingman, but that’s why it was thoroughly briefed.

Jerry
 
rockyfatcat said:
I was wondering how you’d handle things in a formation if visibility dropped to zero/zero?
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You would have to break up the formation flying a set lost wingman contract of some sort similar to military aviation. You’d have to tell the controller and they would then give radar vectors to each individual aircraft and altitudes to fly with separate squawk codes. Once they are able to ensure separation from the other aircraft with their required spacing they give each aircraft its own separate IFR clearance. That would be a nightmare in an RV. Not sure I’d want to do anything but go through a cloud deck in formation like a VFR on top and VFR below scenario.

To be clear all pilots and aircraft would have to be appropriately rated equipped and current. Standard assumptions apply here.
 
RV8Squaz said:
I did this many years ago as a flight of two returning to KFFC in S. Atlanta metro area from Triple Tree. I was lead in my 8 and the other was in his 8A. We were both ex AF IP’s, IFR current and capable, and had flown formation many times together.

This was back before I had a capable smart phone, ForeFlight, and cell coverage at TT. I couldn’t even make a call to FSS before departing TT.

We briefed the formation assuming forecasted VFR conditions from earlier that morning. We got to top of climb and I contacted FSS. It was clear that we were not going to be able to complete the flight VFR. The weather began about halfway, about 80 nm from the destination. KFFC weather was 800’ and 5 miles and forecasted to get lower.

I gave my wingman, Steve several choices:

1. Land somewhere and figure out what to do.
2. Split up the formation and individually file IFR.
3. File a two ship IFR flight plan.

He chose #3. I switched us over to Anderson Radio, filed the flight plan, switched to inter-plane, and thoroughly briefed the new plan to include Lost Wingman procedures. Then we switched to ATC and picked up the clearance. ATC confirmed with us that we were indeed a flight of two. Poor Steve was on my wing in the soup for 40 minutes! We were vectored all over creation and finally broke out at 600’ on the ILS.

So yes, it can be done. But it’s important to note that we were both current and qualified. We had also previously flown formation together many times to include full profiles of fingertip up to 90 deg of bank, 2-3g, Close Trail, Extended Trail, rejoins, etc. I guess the only thing we hadn’t previously practiced was Lost Wingman, but that’s why it was thoroughly briefed.

Jerry
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Sounds like a classic tweet profile!
 
RV8Squaz said:
I did this many years ago as a flight of two returning to KFFC in S. Atlanta metro area from Triple Tree. I was lead in my 8 and the other was in his 8A. We were both ex AF IP’s, IFR current and capable, and had flown formation many times together.

This was back before I had a capable smart phone, ForeFlight, and cell coverage at TT. I couldn’t even make a call to FSS before departing TT.

We briefed the formation assuming forecasted VFR conditions from earlier that morning. We got to top of climb and I contacted FSS. It was clear that we were not going to be able to complete the flight VFR. The weather began about halfway, about 80 nm from the destination. KFFC weather was 800’ and 5 miles and forecasted to get lower.

I gave my wingman, Steve several choices:

1. Land somewhere and figure out what to do.
2. Split up the formation and individually file IFR.
3. File a two ship IFR flight plan.

He chose #3. I switched us over to Anderson Radio, filed the flight plan, switched to inter-plane, and thoroughly briefed the new plan to include Lost Wingman procedures. Then we switched to ATC and picked up the clearance. ATC confirmed with us that we were indeed a flight of two. Poor Steve was on my wing in the soup for 40 minutes! We were vectored all over creation and finally broke out at 600’ on the ILS.

So yes, it can be done. But it’s important to note that we were both current and qualified. We had also previously flown formation together many times to include full profiles of fingertip up to 90 deg of bank, 2-3g, Close Trail, Extended Trail, rejoins, etc. I guess the only thing we hadn’t previously practiced was Lost Wingman, but that’s why it was thoroughly briefed.

Jerry
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Jerry,
You guys did that because you are badasses ;) - Obviously your qualifications far exceed many of us here but even being current IFR, I would not try it. Not too long ago I was in IMC and could could barely see my wingtips and thought how much I hate the soup .. I can't imagine trying to fly formation and staying on someone's wings without looking at my gauges in full IMC. That is honestly a scary thought.
 
skylor said:
You can file and fly IFR in formation. You can even do this with non-instrument pilots and aircraft as wingman IF the entire flight is conducted in VMC.
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Are you sure about that? 61.57 would seem to prohibit this, ie. must be instrument rated and current to operate under IFR. A non-rated pilot or a rated but non- current pilot cannot fly on a clearance even in clear-and-a-million wx.
 
I would strongly advise against formation flying in IMC. Why? The risks far outweigh any perceived benefits. So you arrive 5 minutes after your buddy. Regardless of past military experience, it would seem difficult to remain proficient in formation IMC in the civilian airspace system. Not to mention a controllers unfamiliarity with such operations. I trust any forum members would think twice before attempting formation IMC.
 
Majorpayne317641 said:
You would have to break up the formation flying a set lost wingman contract of some sort similar to military aviation. You’d have to tell the controller and they would then give radar vectors to each individual aircraft and altitudes to fly with separate squawk codes. Once they are able to ensure separation from the other aircraft with their required spacing they give each aircraft its own separate IFR clearance. That would be a nightmare in an RV. Not sure I’d want to do anything but go through a cloud deck in formation like a VFR on top and VFR below scenario.

To be clear all pilots and aircraft would have to be appropriately rated equipped and current. Standard assumptions apply here.
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It is complex and requires a high level of proficiency and discipline, but I’m not sure why It would be a nightmare in an RV as compared to any other aircraft. I practiced it (and sometimes did it for real!) in T-37’s, T-38’s, and T-6’s.

Typically, if in level flight, the wingman turns away (15 deg of bank for 15s or something similar). If the wingman loses sight in a turn and the wingman is on the outside of the turn, the wingman levels the wings while lead maintains the turn. If the wingman is on the inside of the turn, the lead levels the wings. It is then the responsibility of lead to establish altitude separation and coordinate separate clearances.
 
When did the AF T6 era end. One of my best friends was AF, probably mid 60's. I think the T33 was the next step in that era?? My friend only talked about the AF training one time in all the years I knew him. That one time he covered a lot of ground. I think in that era some of the training was done by Hawthorne Aviation??
 
I might do it if the other pilot is IFR qualled, current in IFR, in an IFR airplane. Also, the formation flight has to be prebriefed and something both pilots have practiced previously. I have led and been the wingman where aircraft needed help getting through IFR in instrument conditions at airports and the aircraft carrier. One time my attitude gyro tumbled and my lead led me all the way to 200 and a half before kissing me off which was the signal I had landing clearance. He went missed after I had the runway made. Other times I was tasked with rendez vousing on the overhead tanker and flying in column for long periods of night IFR at the ship. One time I was led to the carrier and kissed off with another aircraft problem. I led others in the same situation. So it can be done. BUT and It is a big BUT, we were using standard prebriefed Navy contingency procedures that were drilled and drilled and drilled some more during VFR practice of said procedures. We ALL knew what was expected and our roles in each situation including lost comm/lost sight procedures. If I were in an organization that had standardized procedures that were drilled and my wingman/lead was trusted it would be pretty tame but just grabbing a few of your buds and penetrating IMC in formation would be risky at best.
 
RV8Squaz said:
It is complex and requires a high level of proficiency and discipline, but I’m not sure why It would be a nightmare in an RV as compared to any other aircraft. I practiced it (and sometimes did it for real!) in T-37’s, T-38’s, and T-6’s.

Typically, if in level flight, the wingman turns away (15 deg of bank for 15s or something similar). If the wingman loses sight in a turn and the wingman is on the outside of the turn, the wingman levels the wings while lead maintains the turn. If the wingman is on the inside of the turn, the lead levels the wings. It is then the responsibility of lead to establish altitude separation and coordinate separate clearances.
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All of those aircraft have pilots with at least a general level of competency in IMC formation flying (yes you might fly with a student in the other cockpit). All have rigorous medicals. All have ejection seats (not that I’d ever want to use it, but it’s there). Finally, the majority of the time radar instrument trail ends up being a lot safer bet for an aircraft that has a target track radar.

Yes IMC formation flying has its place when you lose all navigation capabilities in your plane and need to get back home, but that’s really the only reason it’s practiced anymore. Or if you are on a tanker and need gas.
 
BCP Boys said:
Jerry,
You guys did that because you are badasses ;) - Obviously your qualifications far exceed many of us here but even being current IFR, I would not try it. Not too long ago I was in IMC and could could barely see my wingtips and thought how much I hate the soup .. I can't imagine trying to fly formation and staying on someone's wings without looking at my gauges in full IMC. That is honestly a scary thought.
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Ha ha! Thanks! Yeah it does require some unique qualifications. But it also requires a high level of proficiency only achievable through regular practice in both Formation and Instrument flying. Fortunately I get to do both regularly.

It is indeed tough to stay on someone’s wing in thick clouds. You have to completely disregard your senses and just focus 100% on lead‘s visual cues. It’s not terribly difficult for a few minutes. But much more than 10 minutes at a time, it gets quite fatiguing. It is a scary thought, and it should be.

At Columbus AFB, MS, the clouds would get so thick, we do what was called the “Columbus Tuck,” and get in just a weee bit closer to avoid going Lost Wingman.
 
Pat Hatch said:
I wanted to throw this out there. Yesterday when returning from breakfast at Sebring in the RV-6 I encountered IFR weather at my destination, Vero Beach. We had taken off from Sebring as a formation of three RVs. I had filed an IFR flight plan before departing Sebring as the weather in Vero was IFR. I picked up my clearance in the air and we broke up the formation, the other two guys had to go elsewhere to wait out the weather. I'm just wondering what would happen if I had filed as a formation of three and proceded into Vero, shot the approach, etc. Anyone ever done this? I know we used to do it in the Air Force, but have never encountered the possibility in the GA world. It would have been interesting to try! The other two guys were experienced formation/instrument qualified pilots but neither aircraft was IFR capable. Possible?
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Perfectly fine to do. No problem whatsoever from the standpoint of having a clearance. BTDT.

Absolutely critical all members of the flight understand and follow lost wingman procedures. Don't remember those being in the FFI standards, but 90% sure those are in the Grumman POA Chapter 11 Standards which pre-date the FFI ones (and bare a striking similarity) lol
 
jrs14855 said:
When did the AF T6 era end. One of my best friends was AF, probably mid 60's. I think the T33 was the next step in that era?? My friend only talked about the AF training one time in all the years I knew him. That one time he covered a lot of ground. I think in that era some of the training was done by Hawthorne Aviation??
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I was referring to the T-6A Texan II, the current primary AF trainer produced by Raytheon, based on the Pilatus PC-9. It’s a single engine turbo prop with a PT-6.
 
RV8Squaz said:
It is complex and requires a high level of proficiency and discipline, but I’m not sure why It would be a nightmare in an RV as compared to any other aircraft. I practiced it (and sometimes did it for real!) in T-37’s, T-38’s, and T-6’s.

Typically, if in level flight, the wingman turns away (15 deg of bank for 15s or something similar). If the wingman loses sight in a turn and the wingman is on the outside of the turn, the wingman levels the wings while lead maintains the turn. If the wingman is on the inside of the turn, the lead levels the wings. It is then the responsibility of lead to establish altitude separation and coordinate separate clearances.
Click to expand...
But what happens in zero/zero visibility?
 
I haven’t done it, but some of my River Rat formation buddies have, notably Jon Thocker and Ken Rieder have done this more than once - all the way to the runway.
I don’t know about zero zero, but even inside of a dark cloud you can usually see at least 50’. Lost wingman procedures must be thoroughly briefed and understood prior.
 
Scott Hersha said:
I haven’t done it, but some of my River Rat formation buddies have, notably Jon Thocker and Ken Rieder have done this more than once - all the way to the runway.
I don’t know about zero zero, but even inside of a dark cloud you can usually see at least 50’. Lost wingman procedures must be thoroughly briefed and understood prior.
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Seems like an eternity ago but I flew in solid IMC off of Mutha's left wing for about 15 minutes. We had a pretty good idea on the weather ahead and briefed in-flight. Challenging for sure and it was very relaxing to be back in VFR conditions. Miss that dude.
 
rockyfatcat said:
But what happens in zero/zero visibility?
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In most clouds you can see enough to maintain standard fingertip spacing. 50’ of visibility will do it. The thickest or densest clouds can cause one to go Lost Wingman. This happens very infrequently. If you get more than a wingspan apart, you risk losing sight in most clouds. Once you lose sight, it’s critical to immediately apply briefed lost wingman procedures. There is a possibility of rejoining the formation if VFR conditions are encountered shortly thereafter. But this would require ATC coordination and cooperation. At that point it’s easier to just recover single ship.
 
All righty, then. I guess I asked for it. Maybe not directly RV related, but an interesting discussion nonetheless. Having flown the T-38 in the Air Force, I look back at my IFR formation experience fondly. Not sure it would be practical in the civilian world, but fun to think about the possibilites. Night formation in the soup in a T-38—now that was a lot of fun!
 
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