IFR approach plate dates on upper n lower

[FireMedic_2009]

I’ve searched online and haven’t seen an answer. The approach plates have the dates on the upper (Julian date - last revision date) and the lower (last amendment date).

Questions:
1. What’s the difference between the Revision and the Amendment date? I initially thought the Amendment date will always be the same or more current meaning amendments are to the most recent revision. However I’ve seen where the Amendment date is older than the revision date.

2. If your database is newer than both the last revision and amendment date can’t you legally use the chart for that approach?

I would like a comment from someone who actually knows and not an opinion.
Thanks

 

[Auburntsts]

Revision dates are updated whenever anything changes on the chart, whether it's a major procedural change, or just a minor formatting change.

Amendment dates indicate when something procedural has changed.Procedural changes generally affect navigational data (courses, distances, altitudes, etc), minimums, equipment requirements or significant changes to navaids or the approach runway.

So if nothing procedural has changed, but there was a typo for example, the revision date would be later than the amendment date and indicate when the fix for the typo had been incorporated.

Ok for your 2nd question, I’m not sure I’m really understanding what you’re asking. When you say database are you referring to a GPS’s nav data or an electronic version of the charts?

I think it’s not enough for the database to be newer. Without using the current cycle for the plate, how would you determine that there hadn’t been an amendment for that plate published in a subsequent cycle even with a current gps database?

 

[GalinHdz]

THANKS for the review. After so many years, I had forgotten the difference.

 

[FireMedic_2009]

Ah yes, good catch. So if I have a current update on Foreflt and both Revision and Amendment dates for an approach plate are older than the Nav gps data on a GTN650 would it be legal to shoot the approach?

Would you need both dates to be older than the gps database or only the Amendment date to be older since the amendment dates deals mainly with navigating n procedures?

 

[Auburntsts]

Ah yes, good catch. So if I have a current update on Foreflt and both Revision and Amendment dates for an approach plate are older than the Nav gps data on a GTN650 would it be legal to shoot the approach?

Would you need both dates to be older than the gps database or only the Amendment date to be older since the amendment dates deals mainly with navigating n procedures?

So to be legal to use the GTN GPS waypoints for an approach, the GTN’s database has to be current. So if your FF and GTN databases are both current, then the rev and amend dates of a given plate really wouldn’t matter as the rev and amend dates are always going to be older than the current cycle.

My understanding is any amendment date is always going to be the same or older than the revision date. It can’t be vice versa because if they make an amendment they are also going to change the revision date.

 

[Skysailor]

Both matter

The database in a EFIS or IFR navigator only tells you that all the points are correct for position, name etc. Flying an approach is a procedure combining those points with altitudes, sequence, transitions etc. Having current data in the EFIS and/or IFR navigator is not sufficient. The approach plate in use must also be current. You cannot ever legally shoot an approach with an approach plate that is out of date. The original poster mentioned Foreflight. If your plate is current through them you will meet the requirements of amendments and revisions.

 

[lr172]

Ah yes, good catch. So if I have a current update on Foreflt and both Revision and Amendment dates for an approach plate are older than the Nav gps data on a GTN650 would it be legal to shoot the approach?

Would you need both dates to be older than the gps database or only the Amendment date to be older since the amendment dates deals mainly with navigating n procedures?

I did some research in the past and thought that I read the FAA only requires a database load in which the approach being used is current (i.e. the navigator database date is the same or newer than the approaches latest revision date). Unsure if this was a formal position of even if I read it correctly, but there is data out there to be found if this is important to you. Problem with this is that things change and may have to shoot an unplanned approach that may have a more recent revision date than what is in your DB.

 

[FireMedic_2009]

The database in a EFIS or IFR navigator only tells you that all the points are correct for position, name etc. Flying an approach is a procedure combining those points with altitudes, sequence, transitions etc. Having current data in the EFIS and/or IFR navigator is not sufficient. The approach plate in use must also be current. You cannot ever legally shoot an approach with an approach plate that is out of date. The original poster mentioned Foreflight. If your plate is current through them you will meet the requirements of amendments and revisions.

The gps navigator (GTN650) will fly the approach plate which includes the waypoints on the plate. When I say approach plates I’m also including the arrivals n departure plates as well. Obviously this takes a lot of time and you would want to plan for multiple alternate airports but this is just for the sake of discussion.

If the revision n amendment dates are older than the gps database and you have current plates on Foreflt why wouldn’t it be legal? The fact that the revision n amendment dates haven’t changed in x months or yrs proves there hasn’t been any changes. The side dates don’t make the plate more current than it was 6 months ago with a revision date 6 months or older, does it???

 

[Auburntsts]

The gps navigator (GTN650) will fly the approach plate which includes the waypoints on the plate. When I say approach plates I’m also including the arrivals n departure plates as well. Obviously this takes a lot of time and you would want to plan for multiple alternate airports but this is just for the sake of discussion.

If the revision n amendment dates are older than the gps database and you have current plates on Foreflt why wouldn’t it be legal? The fact that the revision n amendment dates haven’t changed in x months or yrs proves there hasn’t been any changes. The side dates don’t make the plate more current than it was 6 months ago with a revision date 6 months or older, does it???

So if your plate that is out of date, how would you determine if something had changed in subsequent cycles even if your GTN was current? In my mind all the dates matter to be legal for approaches.

 

[FireMedic_2009]

I think I haven’t explained it very well. So let me try to use an example.

The question is does the gps database have to be current in order to shoot an approach at KZPH?
Scenario: Gps database last updated Sept ‘22. Foreflt is current as of today so you can verify the revision n amended dates. KZPH RNAV GPS Rwy05. Last change was in 2020.

 

[Auburntsts]

I think I haven’t explained it very well. So let me try to use an example.

The question is does the gps database have to be current in order to shoot an approach at KZPH?
Scenario: Gps database last updated Sept ‘22. Foreflt is current so you can verify the revision n amended dates. KZPH RNAV GPS Rwy05. Last change was in 2020.

Yes. To shoot an approach the GPS database has to be current. From the AIM chapter 1-1-17: “All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database supplied by the equipment manufacturer or other FAA-approved source. The system must be able to retrieve the procedure by name from the aircraft navigation database, not just as a manually entered series of waypoints. Manual entry of waypoints using latitude/longitude or place/bearing is not permitted for approach procedures.”

In my book, the best strategy is to simply keep everything current.

 

[lr172]

I think I haven’t explained it very well. So let me try to use an example.

The question is does the gps database have to be current in order to shoot an approach at KZPH?
Scenario: Gps database last updated Sept ‘22. Foreflt is current as of today so you can verify the revision n amended dates. KZPH RNAV GPS Rwy05. Last change was in 2020.

From my research this scenario is legal. Degree of certainty is only moderate, so validation required. From what I can find, the approach details in the navigator database must be at the current revision level of the approach you are flying and not necessarily the entire DB being at the current cycle. Also must have a current plate. Not necessarily from a current DB, but a plate that has the most recent revision. The relavant revision level is based upon what was released in the most recent revision cycle (28 days).

Having the most recent DB is safe and easy but not necessarilly the only way. Remember the old days? They didn't send new complete plate books every month. Just the pages that were revised. DB's are the same way.

 

[Auburntsts]

From my research this scenario is legal. Degree of certainty is only moderate, so validation required. From what I can find, the approach details in the navigator database must be at the current revision level of the approach you are flying and not necessarily the entire DB being at the current cycle. Also must have a current plate. Not necessarily from a current DB, but a plate that has the most recent revision. The relavant revision level is based upon what was released in the most recent revision cycle (28 days).

Having the most recent DB is safe and easy but not necessarilly the only way. Remember the old days? They didn't send new complete plate books every month. Just the pages that were revised. DB's are the same way.

The GTN database isn’t selectable. Either the whole thing is current or it’s not. While AC 90-100 does give a pilot an option to compare an expired database to current charts for enroute, DPs, and STARs, I can’t find any reference that gives you that leeway for an approach. So I standby my position that to be legal to shoot the approach, the GTN database has to be current until someone can post a link to a reference that says otherwise.

 

[lr172]

The GTN database isn’t selectable. Either the whole thing is current or it’s not. While AC 90-100 does give a pilot an option to compare an expired database to current charts for enroute, DPs, and STARs, I can’t find any reference that gives you that leeway for an approach. So I standby my position that to be legal to shoot the approach, the GTN database has to be current until someone can post a link to a reference that says otherwise.

Sorry, it was too many years ago to find the reference. An up to date chart source, such as FF, will give you the current revision date for any given approach, as it is printed on the chart. As long as the navigator DB is more current than that date, then you know that one particular approach in the DB is current, even if others are not.

Definitely not stating that this is legal. Only that I did this research in the past and recall that it was legal. I wouldn't trust my memory to confirm this and DEFINITELY wouldn't encourage others to trust it. Only point was that it may bear fruit if someone else does that research.

From what I recall, the FAA guidance is that a pilot must use the most current approach details and not necessarily the most current DB. As I mentioned, there are other flaws to this, such as requiring a change in plans with no guarantee that the new approach will be current - a slippery slope.