I have owned my 2006 RV-10 for thirteen years now and after a MAJOR panel upgrade and new paint, I am considering two more possible options. One is adding a Airflow Systems ASCA-5000 air conditioning unit and the other option is the Hotel Whiskey ER tip tanks. I would like to hear what the various opinions about how much EACH one of those options, if installed, would add to the value of the aircraft when I go to sell it. Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions.
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How much added value to a RV-10
- Thread starter DJP
- Start date
The better question is how much more comfortable and useful will these two additions make the -10 for you.
My opinion is that I will never sell my aircraft so I continue to make it suit my needs and preferences. I'll let my heirs worry about what the value is (or isn't) after I'm gone. In the meantime I will keep a smile on my face soaring the skies and recommend you do the same!
My opinion is that I will never sell my aircraft so I continue to make it suit my needs and preferences. I'll let my heirs worry about what the value is (or isn't) after I'm gone. In the meantime I will keep a smile on my face soaring the skies and recommend you do the same!
Bill Boyd
Well Known Member
I promised my wife I would sell the 10 after I hang up my wings but before I die. Problem is, I don't know either of those dates nor the spread between. She doesn't want to be left with the asset disposal problem and I would never wish that on my heirs anyway. None of them know jack about planes beyond being passengers.
If the two dates mentioned above coincide, the plane will likely have been bought by the insurance company, which the estate will appreciate.
If the two dates mentioned above coincide, the plane will likely have been bought by the insurance company, which the estate will appreciate.
I have to laugh (again) at the comments about reducing value. Most Rv-10 owners want all the bells and whistles; A/C is especially coveted in areas where it stays warm.
As far as extended range tanks, I laugh as well. Just because you have the ability to go farther doesn’t mean you have to. I have the HWA er tanks and mainly use them to carry cheap gas. There is sometimes more than $1 gallon difference in price so I fill them when I can.
That said, I would go with the SD er tanks if I was doing it again. Much simpler design and no additional plumbing, pumps, or hardware…and they add more fuel than the HWA tanks.
In the end, the value comes from what someone is willing to pay, nothing more.
As far as extended range tanks, I laugh as well. Just because you have the ability to go farther doesn’t mean you have to. I have the HWA er tanks and mainly use them to carry cheap gas. There is sometimes more than $1 gallon difference in price so I fill them when I can.
That said, I would go with the SD er tanks if I was doing it again. Much simpler design and no additional plumbing, pumps, or hardware…and they add more fuel than the HWA tanks.
In the end, the value comes from what someone is willing to pay, nothing more.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
They might add value but you most likely won’t get back what you put in. The pool analogy is a good example.
Honest question: Aren't you giving up some performance to shuttle around the less expensive gas?
When I built my RV7, I never thought I would sell it. It was a well built, sweet and beautiful RV by all accounts but things in life changes and it was sold. So, that was a lesson for me for the next plane that don't think of it as 'I will never sell it' and with that in mind, anything I do/add to my plane I also keep that in consideration to what it will do to the selling value of the plane. This is largely that I don't have a rich dad to set me up for life and I need to make what I have last me till I am gone.
I think those mods bring value for the potential buyer that lives in an area that needs it such as FL or Houston. In other parts of the country, it might actually work against you.
I think those mods bring value for the potential buyer that lives in an area that needs it such as FL or Houston. In other parts of the country, it might actually work against you.
I had a Bonanza G36 that I added tip tanks to and it was one of the best things I did. I made more than a few trips to Fort Lauderdale and I'd stop short at different airports to tank up with cheap gas before landing and there was often more than 1.00/gal difference. If I stopped at the right place, I'd burn just enough gas so I could buy the minimum to avoid one fee or another from the FBO. And then there were times, I was able to fly direct to Fort Lauderdale without stopping at all if I needed to. That Bonanza was a flying gas tank if I wanted it to be...114 gallons usable
We use our -10 often enough with 4 adults and light bags that A/C would be a negative for me due to weight and balance limitations.
Extra fuel is a positive for me. I do have ER tanks. When my wife and I travel, 80 gallons is the ideal fuel load as it gets us non-stop to the Denver area to visit family landing with 20-25 gallons. Or we stop halfway for a quick “break” and only take fuel if we want. If the Sky Designs ER tanks were available when I was building, I definitely would have used them.
Extra fuel is a positive for me. I do have ER tanks. When my wife and I travel, 80 gallons is the ideal fuel load as it gets us non-stop to the Denver area to visit family landing with 20-25 gallons. Or we stop halfway for a quick “break” and only take fuel if we want. If the Sky Designs ER tanks were available when I was building, I definitely would have used them.
Did anyone see this service note on ER gas tanks and VNE?
www.vansaircraft.com
SN-00108 - Van's Aircraft Total Performance RV Kit Planes
Covers limitations for RV aircraft with aftermarket extended range fuel tanks installed
www.vansaircraft.com
Wow, the biggest CYA I have seen. Repost of Ken at Sky Design (guy who designed the RV-10 and RV-14 wing):Did anyone see this service note on ER gas tanks and VNE?
SN-00108 - Van's Aircraft Total Performance RV Kit Planes
Covers limitations for RV aircraft with aftermarket extended range fuel tanks installed
I believe that extending the tank skin and tank baffle outboard serve only to increase the bending strength of the wing in the two affected rib bays. Also the torsional stiffness and bending stiffness of the wing are, if anything, increased with ER tanks so there is no reason to expect a reduction in flutter speed.
Additionally, spin recovery is adversely affected by any increase in rolling and yawing moments of inertia but it should be recognized that other commonly added extras - such as air conditioning systems - also increase the mass moments of inertia. Given that spins are not recommended in either RV-10 or RV-14 and that both aircraft have such benign stall characteristics, the increased moment of inertia due to ER fuel was deemed an acceptable compromise.
It is also worth noting that fuel carried in the wing moves the aircraft CG slightly forward whereas carrying fuel in the baggage area or rear seats moves the aircraft CG aft. All other things being equal, a further aft CG tends to degrade spin recovery.
I absolutely love having ER tanks. I enjoy the peace of mind knowing that I have an extra safety margin if un-forecast conditions occur that require a long deviation. That said, go with Sky Design and not Hotel Whiskey tanks, my blog post explains why: https://www.strikhedonia.com/hotel-whiskey-er-fuel-tanks/
I've bought and sold 7 RV's so I find what builders put into them very interesting (de-iceing systems come to mind). I'm not sure you'd get your money back from either mod, but I'd be very interested, as a buyer, in extra fuel (potential safety issue) and very uninterested in AC (useful load). Passengers may view it differently.
Haven’t noticed any issues; the performance of the -10 has been stellar with or without the extra 15 gallons of gas.
Exactly.
For AC climb to 10,000 to 12,000 feet it will be about 35F cooler up there.
More fuel and Range? Do you really need it? Van's specs 1050nm light weight, 825nm gross at 55% power (which you would be at 10-12,000 feet). Problem solved. Do you really go on long max range cross countries?
Yes it is hot on the ground in summer. Some strategies, depart and fly early in morning. Keep plane in hanger and shade and preflight there, and get in and go, with out "Toiling on the ground" in direct sunlight and hot ramp. The AC is going to add weight, using it or not, it will be there, to rob you of takeoff, climb, cruise and range performance. The "no free lunch" rule comes into play.
Have you flown with AC in a small plane? The report I heard (Bonanza driver put one in) was the outside temps were in the 90's, plane was heat soaked and the AC did not do much to cool the cabin. It did help, but not the panacea you might think. Start with a mildly warm airplane and temps, yes it will cool if given time. The TRICK is being able to run AC on electrical GROUND POWER before you get in for an hour or three (in the shade). No expert but I believe these AC unites max BTU's cooling are just enough to maintain temp in extrem conditions (again see advice above). Keep in mind to really work at all you need to have insulated upholstered cockpit (more weight).
These are not cheap or easy to install Mods. One thing, fuel system in my opinion is a major mod and the FAA should be notified. Might need to go back into a short Phase 1 program. ANYTHING to do with fuel is critical. This is not a show stopper but it's also not a nothing burger. You will need to update the POH.
To your question will you get your money out of the mods? May be. May be not. The price of a RV-10 w/o AC and extra fuel is insane. You will limit your market for someone willing to pay $insain$ + Plus more money. Really between you, and your pocket book. Some thinking about value. Will you do the work? The cost of having it down will add a good chunk.
Don't listen to me I am a stripped down 2 seat RV'er... You Cadillac RV-10 drivers are out of my league. Ha ha. It is a nice problem to have if you have the money to do this. No judgment. I am just a KISS guy (not the band but keep it simple). The reminds me of when I have to decide, should I get the 79 foot yacht or the 98 foot yacht? This is a problem I never will have. But for the record I would go 120 foot with full crew... Now come on Lottery.
More fuel and Range? Do you really need it? Van's specs 1050nm light weight, 825nm gross at 55% power (which you would be at 10-12,000 feet). Problem solved. Do you really go on long max range cross countries?
Yes it is hot on the ground in summer. Some strategies, depart and fly early in morning. Keep plane in hanger and shade and preflight there, and get in and go, with out "Toiling on the ground" in direct sunlight and hot ramp. The AC is going to add weight, using it or not, it will be there, to rob you of takeoff, climb, cruise and range performance. The "no free lunch" rule comes into play.
Have you flown with AC in a small plane? The report I heard (Bonanza driver put one in) was the outside temps were in the 90's, plane was heat soaked and the AC did not do much to cool the cabin. It did help, but not the panacea you might think. Start with a mildly warm airplane and temps, yes it will cool if given time. The TRICK is being able to run AC on electrical GROUND POWER before you get in for an hour or three (in the shade). No expert but I believe these AC unites max BTU's cooling are just enough to maintain temp in extrem conditions (again see advice above). Keep in mind to really work at all you need to have insulated upholstered cockpit (more weight).
These are not cheap or easy to install Mods. One thing, fuel system in my opinion is a major mod and the FAA should be notified. Might need to go back into a short Phase 1 program. ANYTHING to do with fuel is critical. This is not a show stopper but it's also not a nothing burger. You will need to update the POH.
To your question will you get your money out of the mods? May be. May be not. The price of a RV-10 w/o AC and extra fuel is insane. You will limit your market for someone willing to pay $insain$ + Plus more money. Really between you, and your pocket book. Some thinking about value. Will you do the work? The cost of having it down will add a good chunk.
Don't listen to me I am a stripped down 2 seat RV'er... You Cadillac RV-10 drivers are out of my league. Ha ha. It is a nice problem to have if you have the money to do this. No judgment. I am just a KISS guy (not the band but keep it simple). The reminds me of when I have to decide, should I get the 79 foot yacht or the 98 foot yacht? This is a problem I never will have. But for the record I would go 120 foot with full crew... Now come on Lottery.
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That's not the only reason for long range tanks. It's called "options".
Pretty much agree but I do not live in a place where it would really be necessary.
Why should the FAA be notified? They likely know very little about an RV-10 and less about modern day fuel injection like SDS and EFII.
Oh, and a POH is not a requirement for experimental aircraft; certainly nice to have but not required.
The price is what the market will bring; currently, people are willing to pay a substantial amount for a nice RV-10...and if the buyer is willing to pay those prices upfront, then the "extra" for the A/C is not likely to be a deal breaker. The cost of the ER tanks is pretty inconsequential in this case.
Yes, most -10 owners like all the bells and whistles. No argument there.
Not sure what the weight gain is on this ac system. But, we added the STC'd aftermarket FTA system to our A36 Bonanza TC and the total weight gain was around 25 lbs. It was expensive about 8 years ago when we got it so I'm sure it's more now. HOWEVER....we live in the South and that was the best thing we ever added to the aircraft. ABSOLUTELY a game changer and funny thing is we never ever even thought about the price when using it cause it worked as good as a new car ac (much better than the factory ones Beech used to have). When I was looking for a completed RV 14/14A after Beech life I would've paid a little more for one that had ac just knowing what a difference the ac made in the Bonanza for us. But, maybe the system for RV's isn't equal I just don't know. Also, we added the Osborne tip tanks as well....another really good choice IMHO. Some may like it some may not but the some that do like it will be willing to pay for it especially if they fly it on a hot day.
Complete A/C system was 25 lbs. ? I want one ! (see attached), sign me up for 25 lbs. total g.w. (most are mid 60's)
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Yep, you have to look at the negatives, too. Last time I looked, adding AC would have changed my full fuel (60 gal) 4 adults and some bags airplane into a 3 adult airplane (or less gas). And extended range tanks: After a trip, do I fill them? If no, and it turns out I'd like them, that's 20 minutes of taxi/re-fuel time before takeoff. I may as well stop enroute. If yes, I do fill them, then what if my next trip is 4 adults plus bags? De-fuel? I'm just not the kind of guy that plans my life out very far in advance. I can see a case for those who need to tanker gas, because it's unavailable or outrageously priced at the home field. But how many pilots have that issue? BTW, with 60 gal tanks, I routinely cruise at 11 - 12K' (who needs AC?) full throttle, LOP at 10 gal/hr. Yes, just 160 KTAS. But 5 hours gas plus reserves. (On some multi-leg trips it's actually faster to go slower, by saving a fuel stop).
This is a
Your doc is a Kelly Aerospace ac system completely different system. The FTA system like we had is what Beech is putting in brand new factory Bonanzas today. They purchase the STC'd units from the guy in TN that developed it. We bought the system directly from him when we installed ours. The total unit weight was something like 45 lbs but they remove a lot of the old plumbing and replace it with the newer lighter equipment and we netted about 25lbs gained when installed. Well worth it!
Please attach a data sheet. Would love to know more about a A/C system that weighs 25 lbs. Cirrus A/C weighs 55 lbs. See attached. Love to install A/C that weighs 25 lbs.
I understand how the world's leading single engine company can't design a A/C system over 2 times the weight of Beech A/C but as stated before show us the data !
Airflow System seems to be the A/C system of choice in the RV world, what does their system weigh?
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Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
Here is my question for you. Who did you build the plane for, probably yourself? Just keep that question in mind, when adding things to it, not what you think someone down the road will want, it is for your comfort and fun today, not someone else's tomorrow.
Here's a link to Bonanza system we had. They remove all the heavy original fans and electrics and replace with all their stuff. In our case we had 25lb net gain. Their system 41lb - 16lb removal of OE equipment = 25lb net gain.
Bonanza A/C
www.ftaaviation.com
So the system actually weighs 41 lbs, NOT 25 lbs. In a new installation, you would have to figure the actual weight (41) as you would not be removing any old equipment.Here's a link to Bonanza system we had. They remove all the heavy original fans and electrics and replace with all their stuff. In our case we had 25lb net gain. Their system 41lb - 16lb removal of OE equipment = 25lb net gain.
Bonanza A/C
www.ftaaviation.com
I weighed every component when my SFSA A/C system arrived. The overall weight including the compressor, blower/evaporator, hoses, overhead console, etc. was 72.2 lb. The overhead console by itself was 9.3 lb and the blower+evaporator was 23.2 lb. I would have had an O/H console and blower even if I hadn't gone with A/C so if you assume half the weight of the blower+evapator is for the evaporator, the delta from a console + forced air system vs. a full-up A/C system is 51.3 lb (72.2 - 9.3 - 23.2/2).
The other day, I flew halfway across TX and dropped someone off along the way in a C172. By the time I got home, I was soaking wet from sweat. Even though I was mostly comfy cruising at 8000 ft (59 degF but still humid), I spent enough time down low that I'll gladly pay the weight penalty to arrive with my clothes still usable afterwards.
-Bob
The other day, I flew halfway across TX and dropped someone off along the way in a C172. By the time I got home, I was soaking wet from sweat. Even though I was mostly comfy cruising at 8000 ft (59 degF but still humid), I spent enough time down low that I'll gladly pay the weight penalty to arrive with my clothes still usable afterwards.
-Bob
As I said in my original post and consequent post OUR NET GAIN was 25lb in our bonanza based on removal of old stuff. Obviously if you have nothing to remove then you'll have the full weight of whatever unit you install. The whole purpose of the OP was asking if ac was worth it and I simply made the comment it was well worth it in our bonanza life but wasn't sure how well the RV system would cool since I've never been in an RV with ac. You're worried about fact checking my bonanza comment and weight gain and it has absolutely nothing to do with the original posters question is the ac worth it!
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Not fact check just trying to understand how an A/C system can weigh 25 lbs., and it does not it seems.
[email protected]
Active Member
So how much weight does the Airflow System add?
How many 10 builders have gone with a blower and no A/C? The minute I turn on the engine my NACA vents in the 14 give me plenty of outside air so never considered for the 10 especially with the addition of rear NACA vents to pressurize the overhead console. Did it help?
RV7Guy
Well Known Member
I'm new to the RV10 game. I just bought Myron Nelsons 10. One of the reasons is the air conditioning. It is HOT in AZ. Even cooling a little while taxiing and during climb out is very helpful and then later in the decent. So, to me, there is added value in the AC. During my research I did learn to go with the compressor style and not the electrical version. Just completed a trip from AZ to Visalia, CA for a model plane contest. The AC was sooooo nice. Having made the trip numerous times in my 7, the taxiing, climb outs and decents are comparatively much more uncomfortable in the 7. Still a fabulous airplane!!!
Regarding LR tanks, I guess they could be helpful in some circumstances. However, you can usually find closely priced gas stops across the country negating the practicality, added weight and reduced TAS. For the wife and I, we live by the 3 B's. Butt, Bladder and Back. We plan our flights for 3-3.5 hours!!! Helps make a long day a little more comfortable.
Regarding LR tanks, I guess they could be helpful in some circumstances. However, you can usually find closely priced gas stops across the country negating the practicality, added weight and reduced TAS. For the wife and I, we live by the 3 B's. Butt, Bladder and Back. We plan our flights for 3-3.5 hours!!! Helps make a long day a little more comfortable.
I'll try to keep my reply as short as possible. I added the Airflow Systems air conditioner to my RV-10. After my consideration of adding the roof mounted console for air distribution I decided to just use the outlets mounted to the aft baggage compartment bulkhead. I think the a/c does an okay job of keeping the cabin comfortable will on the ground and taxiing. I'll not had a great amount of satisfaction while using it in a climb or at low altitudes. I fly most of my RV-10 flights at higher altitudes where a/c use is not necessary. I may, at some point install a roof mounted console to better distribute the air, but no plans for the near future.
I will say this. If you just got your airplane out of the paint shop then you're going to have to send it back. You'll need to modify the lower nose fairing and add the scoop on the belly of the aircraft. All of the work that has to be done in the empanage is likely to have you looking to cover scratches or other damage. Lots of work is involved in the install of the unit. The added weight which is well distributed is about 56lbs. Hope this answers some of the questions about the Airflow Systems a/c.
I will say this. If you just got your airplane out of the paint shop then you're going to have to send it back. You'll need to modify the lower nose fairing and add the scoop on the belly of the aircraft. All of the work that has to be done in the empanage is likely to have you looking to cover scratches or other damage. Lots of work is involved in the install of the unit. The added weight which is well distributed is about 56lbs. Hope this answers some of the questions about the Airflow Systems a/c.
