What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Help me understand, SLSA, ELSA, EAB, Sport pilot, etc.

B

Blw2

Well Known Member
Does any of that even really matter for a PPL holder?

I'm a rusty pilot, daydreaming of retirement getting back into it with a retirement project
I'm PPL instrument rated
currently set-up under Basic Med but haven't flown in a couple years (and haven't been current/proficient for almost a couple decades
I don't know of any reasons that I couldn't get my class 3 medical...but I also don't know any reason why I would need it.

But I'm getting older and who knows what that'll bring
although anything that would ground me with a class 3 would also ground a sport pilot so I'm not sure that is even a variable.
BUT I've read some things that lead me to believe that older pilots lean towards LSA's for some reason.....

I'm Daydreaming mostly about either an RV-14 or an RV-12 (or maybe an RV-9?)
Mostly interested in cross country, me and hopefully my wife if I can get her to fly with me
Not sure if I'll ever really do the work to get instrument current, but I'd like to think I would

Trying to get up to speed on the options and I'm just not all that up to speed on all the different LSA and Sport Pilot options that have come up while I've been out of it.

For someone like me, instrument rated PPL, Basic Med
Would I be gaining anything really with an LSA? Are there any advantages or disadvantages with an LSA? of course other than lower operating costs, etc....

I think I understand that SLSA would not allow IFR, ever
so am I correct that my choice would be either
ELSA = RV-12 VFR only
EAB = RV-12 OR RV-14 OR RV-9 VFR and IFR
 
Blw2 said:
currently set-up under Basic Med but haven't flown in a couple years (and haven't been current/proficient for almost a couple decades
I don't know of any reasons that I couldn't get my class 3 medical...but I also don't know any reason why I would need it.

But I'm getting older and who knows what that'll bring
although anything that would ground me with a class 3 would also ground a sport pilot so I'm not sure that is even a variable.
R
Click to expand...

What grounds a pilot outside of the issuance process is mostly the same and mostly pretty limited IMHO. Rules are quite unclear and therefore mostly not followed. It is the issuance process that grounds most pilots via a denial. Basic Med is a much easier process and only a few things require one time SIs. Dr's doing basic med don't have to follow all the crazy stuff that the FAA Dr's have to follow.

IMHO, basic med will work for most all pilots, except the extreme cases and leaves many more options open over flying under the sport pilot approach. Heart attacks still require and SI and all the hassle it brings, but you only need to do it once, not every year.

Maybe I am not really understanding the FARs. For example, if I had a heart attack, I know that I will have issues getting my next cert, but what do the rules really say about whether or not I can fly in this condition while still under my previously issued medical? Where are these rules found? I know there are some conditions for grounding, like the heart attack above, that are likely spelled out somewhere. Wondering if anyone really understands these.
 
Last edited:
The only reason for going with Light-Sport is that if, at some time, you don't think you can pass BasicMed, you can fly with a current, valid driver's license.

To my way of thinking, the biggest advantage of BasicMed is that you can't "fail" it. Kinda like a flight review. You can NOT pass it, but you don't fail it. If you have a problem, you and your Dr. work it out and then you're good to go again.
 
In the situation you described, there is not one single reason you'd want to attempt to get a class 3 (or 2, or 1) medical. With basic med you're in the catbird seat.
Regardless of platform, you should do everything time and money allow to get current as a VFR and IFR pilot. IFR certification for your airplane of choice will be based on it meeting the requirements of 14CFR 91.205 and 91.411. Note that these are the very minimum; pitot heat, second radio, autopilot not required, but essential to IFR flight.
LSAs are cheaper and you can do your own condition inspection on one certificated as ELSA by taking a 2-day course (2-week course for SLSA). If its special airworthiness certificate states that it's amateur-built, then you won't be able to do the annual/condition inspection.
Once you're off the ground regardless of class/category/color/engine size/price, you're in peril if you are not proficient.
 
Blw2 said:
Does any of that even really matter for a PPL holder?

I'm a rusty pilot, daydreaming of retirement getting back into it with a retirement project
I'm PPL instrument rated
currently set-up under Basic Med but haven't flown in a couple years (and haven't been current/proficient for almost a couple decades
Click to expand...

You say you haven't been current for almost 2 decades. When was the last time you held a 3rd Class or better medical certificate? One of the requirements for basic med is "Comply with the general BasicMed requirements (possess a U.S. driver's license, have held a medical after July 14, 2006)." https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med

So if your last medical certificate expired before July 14, 2006, you will need to pass a 3rd Class FAA physical again before switching to Basic Med.
 
That was an interesting link about maintenance. I wasn't fully aware about the short course options for doing the work on LSA's. That's interesting.

being able to do some of my own maintenance and inspections is a big driver for my interest in doing a kit....so that opens up another angle in terms of LSA!

and about the Basic med....yeah, I already have that going
That wasn't really so much my question originally. It was more about understanding the differences/advantages/limitations with an LSA for someone that has a full PPL already.
 
Blw2 said:
being able to do some of my own maintenance and inspections is a big driver for my interest in doing a kit....so that opens up another angle in terms of LSA!

and about the Basic med.....
Click to expand...

For an EAB: When you say ‘doing a kit’, did you mean personally building one, or buying an already built one (used)?
If you are the builder, you can easily get an FAA ‘Repairman’ certificate, and do the required once a year ‘condition inspection’ yourself. If you are not the original builder, you’ll have to hire an A&P (IA not required) to do the condition inspection. Otherwise, however, in either case, under EAB rules you are free to do as much work on the plane as you like (for major repairs/changes you may need an official test period, referred to as ‘phase 1’.)
Edit. Someone else already mentioned that the only real limitation under Basic Med is that it is restricted to below 18,000’. But there is a second limitation: not all foreign countries accept it. I *think* the Bahamas will, but Canada not.
 
Last edited:
BobTurner said:
For an EAB: When you say ‘doing a kit’, did you mean personally building one, or buying an already built one (used)?
If you are the builder, you can easily get an FAA ‘Repairman’ certificate, and do the required once a year ‘condition inspection’ yourself. If you are not the original builder, you’ll have to hire an A&P (IA not required) to do the condition inspection. Otherwise, however, in either case, under EAB rules you are free to do as much work on the plane as you like (for major repairs/changes you may need an official test period, referred to as ‘phase 1’.)
Edit. Someone else already mentioned that the only real limitation under Basic Med is that it is restricted to below 18,000’. But there is a second limitation: not all foreign countries accept it. I *think* the Bahamas will, but Canada not.
Click to expand...

I have been thinking strongly about building myself. I'm pretty handy and very mechanically inclined and I think I would probably enjoy it as a retirement project when i can finally have some time to do it
 
Blw2 said:
I have been thinking strongly about building myself. I'm pretty handy and very mechanically inclined and I think I would probably enjoy it as a retirement project when i can finally have some time to do it
Click to expand...

As another builder (who waited until retirement, when I had the time), I can only say that I personally thought it was a great experience, and am happy I did it. But the usual caution is, "Build only if you enjoy the build experience. If you don't, it will become real work, and you'll grow to hate it." Now the old advice was to start on the tailcone kit. If you don't enjoy the work, sell it and your tools, and you'll only be out a $1 or $2K, and you'll know it's not for you. These days, because of the huge backlog of orders at Vans, I'm not sure that applies. You might be better off ordering everything as soon as you're pretty sure you want to build. Otherwise you may be sitting around a lot, waiting for your next order to ship a year from now. Best of luck, welcome to the club!
 
Building an airplane would be a huge commitment, but you don't need to do that in order to do "some maintenance" on your airplane. See Bob's comments above. I bought my RV-9A flying and certainly am "allowed" to do far more maintenance than I'm capable of doing. If you want to build, more power to you. I had no interest in that level of time, money, frustration, or emotional commitment, but that's a goal that only you can judge.

You have a PPL and apparently a valid Basic Med medical. That's all you need. Next step is to find a CFI and do your BFR, and then go airplane shopping. No problem with getting an LSA, as long as the limitations of an LSA don't impair your aviation goals.
 
Last edited:
It may be easier to follow if you break it down into the separate pilot/aircraft requirements

On the airman side there are limitations to your PPL privileges under sport pilot rules, some of these include;
1) LSA or other aircraft (EAB or certified) that qualify under LSA
2) a drivers license or greater for a medical
3) altitude limit of 10,000 feet with some exceptions
4) flight maintained to ground reference
5) Day VFR
6) one passenger

On the aircraft side some of the main differences are;

S-LSA (special airworthiness, light sport category)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped) but flight in IMC is prohibited
4) can be rented for flight instruction
5) some maintenance allowed by owner
6) most service and the annual require an LSRM-M (15 day course) or an A&P

E-LSA (special airworthiness, experimental, operating light sport)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped)
4) maintenance repairs modifications allowed by anyone
5) annual inspection by a LSRM-I (2 day class) (if you own the aircraft), or an A&P
6) you must keep the aircraft within the FAA’s (FAR part 1) definition, of an LSA

EAB (special airworthiness, experimental, amateur built)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped)
4) maintenance repairs modifications allowed by anyone
5) annual inspection by the builder (if he has the repairman cert), or an A&P
 
MMiller said:
It may be easier to follow if you break it down into the separate pilot/aircraft requirements

On the airman side there are limitations to your PPL privileges under sport pilot rules, some of these include;
1) LSA or other aircraft (EAB or certified) that qualify under LSA
2) a drivers license or greater for a medical
3) altitude limit of 10,000 feet with some exceptions
4) flight maintained to ground reference
5) Day VFR
6) one passenger

On the aircraft side some of the main differences are;

S-LSA (special airworthiness, light sport category)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped) but flight in IMC is prohibited
4) can be rented for flight instruction
5) some maintenance allowed by owner
6) most service and the annual require an LSRM-M (15 day course) or an A&P

E-LSA (special airworthiness, experimental, operating light sport)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped)
4) maintenance repairs modifications allowed by anyone
5) annual inspection by a LSRM-I (2 day class) (if you own the aircraft), or an A&P
6) you must keep the aircraft within the FAA’s (FAR part 1) definition, of an LSA

EAB (special airworthiness, experimental, amateur built)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped)
4) maintenance repairs modifications allowed by anyone
5) annual inspection by the builder (if he has the repairman cert), or an A&P
Click to expand...

Excellent...thank you!

I still need to digest some of that but I think I'm left with one question (at this point)
so if I were to choose to operate under Sport Pilot privileges I would be limited to one of the LSA options
but
I really can't wrap my ahead around why I would ever want to do that since I have Basic Med and can just operate under PPL privileges with some more minor limitations.
then I guess that really does drive the difference down to the scenarios of doing the maintenance and work on LSA's by more than just an A&P
...so the LSA really only brings those options
 
Blw2 said:
Excellent...thank you!

I still need to digest some of that but I think I'm left with one question (at this point)
so if I were to choose to operate under Sport Pilot privileges I would be limited to one of the LSA options
but
I really can't wrap my ahead around why I would ever want to do that since I have Basic Med and can just operate under PPL privileges with some more minor limitations.
then I guess that really does drive the difference down to the scenarios of doing the maintenance and work on LSA's by more than just an A&P
...so the LSA really only brings those options
Click to expand...

Two of the reasons people might go Sport Pilot….cheaper route to learning to fly an airplane, and no medical required. Flying under Sport Pilot isn’t something you need to do since you already have a PPL and Basic Med. It would be a pointless restriction. You might choose to buy an LSA airplane for other reasons, but only if you want to, not because it’s all you can legally fly.
 
Last edited:
Yes, if you fly under Sport Pilot rules you must fly an SLSA, ELSA or certificated aircraft that meets LSA parameters (such as a Champ, Piper Cub - but beware, many certificated airplanes that apparently are LSA legal are not - check them out).

Note that your airplane doesn't care where it flies. With Basic Med you can fly your LSA IFR in IMC at night to <18,000 if properly equipped. With Sport Pilot you are limited to the (usually) 10K, see-the-ground, etc. previously pointed out, in the very same airplane.

BTW, when you buy or build an LSA you need to be aware of the Operating Limitation. They have been changing. In the "old days" there was a good deal of flexibility. Nowadays, there are some restrictions you can't get around. Some of this is dictated by the FAA and your DAR has no choice in what he assigns. For example, if you take an SLSA to ELSA, you may be saddled with SLSA manufacturer limitation on whether you can ever make it IFR. I'm not sure if you build an E-LSA. (If you build an ELSA are you or Van the manufacturer?) Paragraph 6 Table D-1 FAA Order 8130J.
 
MMiller said:
…

E-LSA (special airworthiness, experimental, operating light sport)
1) day VFR
2) night VFR (if properly equipped)
3) IFR (if properly equipped)
4) maintenance repairs modifications allowed by anyone
5) annual inspection by a LSRM-I (2 day class) (if you own the aircraft), or an A&P
6) you must keep the aircraft within the FAA’s (FAR part 1) definition, of an LSA

…
Click to expand...

Just a small addition…re: 5) a LSR-M can also do the annual conditional inspection for an E-LSA.

Nice summary.

-Jim
 
jnmeade said:
…
BTW, when you buy or build an LSA you need to be aware of the Operating Limitation. They have been changing. In the "old days" there was a good deal of flexibility. Nowadays, there are some restrictions you can't get around. Some of this is dictated by the FAA and your DAR has no choice in what he assigns. For example, if you take an SLSA to ELSA, you may be saddled with SLSA manufacturer limitation on whether you can ever make it IFR. I'm not sure if you build an E-LSA. (If you build an ELSA are you or Van the manufacturer?) Paragraph 6 Table D-1 FAA Order 8130J.
Click to expand...

E-LSA RV-12 Manufacturer: VANS AIRCRAFT INC

Fly safe,
Jim
 
Blw2 said:
...that really does drive the difference down to the scenarios of doing the maintenance and work on LSA's by more than just an A&P
...so the LSA really only brings those options
Click to expand...

As others have written: EAB also allows you to do tons of maintenance and any mods, even if you buy an EAB that someone else built. The only thing you can't do is sign off on the annual Condition Inspection.

I specify "sign off" because many A&Ps do owner-assisted annuals / Condition Inspections, where you spend a day or two at the A&P's shop doing most of the work yourself and the A&P mostly just checks on it and signs off on it.

But, yeah, if you have a PPL and a medical certificate, then the only thing that LSA has to offer you (and this would require you to get an LSA repairman certificate) would be doing all of your own maintenance.

If you're worried about no longer being able to get a medical some years from now: Hopefully in a couple years, the FAA will pass MOSAIC, which will allow bigger airplanes to be considered "LSAs", at which point you may be able to fly RVs other than the 12 without a medical.
 
I think this has been said already, but I will chime in. For the original poster, the only real reason that I could see for the sport pilot/LSA option would be if you failed your medical. As long as you have passed a medical since 2006, basic med provides all the benefits of the other option. Selection of your aircraft is simply a derivative of how you intend to fly and who does the maintenance.
 
meloosifah said:
I think this has been said already, but I will chime in. For the original poster, the only real reason that I could see for the sport pilot/LSA option would be if you failed your medical. As long as you have passed a medical since 2006, basic med provides all the benefits of the other option. Selection of your aircraft is simply a derivative of how you intend to fly and who does the maintenance.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I think if you actually “failed” your 3rd class medical, you’d have to jump through all of the same hoops to be able to fly under the LS rules….i.e. drivers license in Lu of a 3rd class or basic med.
 
Mark33 said:
I could be wrong, but I think if you actually “failed” your 3rd class medical, you’d have to jump through all of the same hoops to be able to fly under the LS rules….i.e. drivers license in Lu of a 3rd class or basic med.
Click to expand...

You’re correct, and it is this fact that has driven so many, especially older, pilots to basic med: fear of failing a class 3 exam. Here’s a real-world example: Pilot friend converted to basic med a few years back, mostly to save money (once every 4 years exam, 2 years for on-line class but that’s free) but also for this fear. And then it happened: he didn’t feel well, went to local walk-in clinic. They took his EKG, called 911, ambulance takes him to hospital to have a pacemaker implanted, for heart arithymea, not a heart attack. He’s worried he’ll never fly again, calls his basic med doc. Doc replies,’What’s your worry? These pacemakers really work. You’re good to fly.’ End of story. Can you imagine if he had still had his 3rd class medical? Temporary grounding, stress tests, doctor’s reports to Oklahoma City, … Grounded for months, thousands of dollars in medical tests, before he could fly again. This is why basic med is so well liked.
 
BobTurner said:
You’re correct, and it is this fact that has driven so many, especially older, pilots to basic med: fear of failing a class 3 exam. Here’s a real-world example: Pilot friend converted to basic med a few years back, mostly to save money (once every 4 years exam, 2 years for on-line class but that’s free) but also for this fear. And then it happened: he didn’t feel well, went to local walk-in clinic. They took his EKG, called 911, ambulance takes him to hospital to have a pacemaker implanted, for heart arithymea, not a heart attack. He’s worried he’ll never fly again, calls his basic med doc. Doc replies,’What’s your worry? These pacemakers really work. You’re good to fly.’ End of story. Can you imagine if he had still had his 3rd class medical? Temporary grounding, stress tests, doctor’s reports to Oklahoma City, … Grounded for months, thousands of dollars in medical tests, before he could fly again. This is why basic med is so well liked.
Click to expand...

Wow….that story is a great selling point for basic med. Even if I wanted to go back to 3rd class….maybe to fly to Canada or to go above 18k feet, I think I’d want to do a mock run with my Dr. I’m perfectly healthy, but I still wouldn’t want to take a chance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top