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Have You Ever Seen An Aircraft Builder Make A Mistake................

Thanks

George, Steve,

Thanks again for this very useful list! I have already printed out a copy for my files. Hope it stays on the site and gets updated regularly.

greg
 
list

Excellent list and document guys.
The list is very thorough. Lots of good things to check. I have seen problems that would have been prevented if this list existed when the planes I'm working on were being built.
By looking at the items on the list the controls will have to be moved stop to stop in the cockpit and that is something that should be checked but what about the brakes??
I did not see a check of the brake function on the list and that is something that should be done before starting the engine. How many out there have started the engine and headed across the ramp without brakes, or heard of someone else doing it? How about a visual check of the fluid level in the reservoir if there is one?
Good checklist and I think it could easily be modified to other aircraft types as well. Great idea, well executed.
Phil
 
Bob-
I may have misread your post, but from the above portion you seem to imply that you've seen a lot of planes that have crashed due to structural failures that were the result of poor workmanship. Or, did you just mean that the planes you've seen that have crashed from pilot or systems failures just happened to have non-crash-related structural issues as well?

I've seen reports of a lot of planes that have crashed due to systems failures, but I've seen very few RV crashes that were attributed to anything structural, builder-related or not. I'd be interested in being pointed to the results if I'm mistaken.

I think for most builder's there is no correlation between the occasional cosmetic mistake or imperfectly set rivet and the overall airworthiness of the aircraft. Chronic cosmetic or riveting issues may be a different story.


I'd be interested in knowing this as well. As you say, there have been very few reports of RVs crashing due to structural failure.
 
Bob-
I may have misread your post, but from the above portion you seem to imply that you've seen a lot of planes that have crashed due to structural failures that were the result of poor workmanship. Or, did you just mean that the planes you've seen that have crashed from pilot or systems failures just happened to have non-crash-related structural issues as well?

I've seen reports of a lot of planes that have crashed due to systems failures, but I've seen very few RV crashes that were attributed to anything structural, builder-related or not. I'd be interested in being pointed to the results if I'm mistaken.

I think for most builder's there is no correlation between the occasional cosmetic mistake or imperfectly set rivet and the overall airworthiness of the aircraft. Chronic cosmetic or riveting issues may be a different story.

Steve, when an RV breaks up in flight there will be no need to strip it down for repairs....because there will be nothing left to strip down or repair. So the answer to your question is obvious in that the deficiencies I observed did not lead to an inflight structural failure. However having said that, it might also be seen as relevant that I have now assisted in the partial strip down of 3 RVs and each one of them proved to have what I consider to be serious defects in build quality which only became obvious to me as a result of the stripdown.

The fact that these particular RVs (and many other RVs for that matter) did not suffer inflight break-ups given their construction flaws is NOT an indication that they were airworthy....it's an indication that they were probably never pushed anywhere near their specified load limits.

For instance it is a fact that one of Van's staff reported he came across an RV that had NO BOLT AT ALL in a rear wing spar (at the fuselage connection)...so the plane had been flying for an extended period of time with absolutely no connectivity between the rear spar and the fuselage. But of course if that plane had ever been pushed to +6G that pilot probably wouldn't be here today.

Many RV builders are older guys who are simply interested in puttering around in the sky. And most of those who DO any aerobatics confine it to the occasional loop or roll pulling no more than +3G. And in particular those builders with lots of skeletons in the closet probably have enough brains (and sense of self preservation) to refrain from going out to the zone where the wind is whistling and the wings are creaking.

In the end it all comes down to one's definition of an "airworthy" RV airframe. MY definition is that the airframe will repeatedly and safely accomodate the loads as specified by Vans (ie +6G -3G at and below aerobatic gross weight) and be capable of going out to +9G before ultimate failure. Will all RVs do that......I don't think so from what I've seen!!!

As I've said previously the advantage of good construction becomes more important at the edge of the flight envelope....and during a crash (a pilot might survive 15G but the fuselage might not). It will also become more important as an aircraft ages and the stress cycles mount up. At the moment the Vans fleet is relatively young....most RVs have less than a 1000 hours on them.

There have been a number of documented cases of RVs breaking up in flight (Van's own demonstrator RV8 being the most famous) following aerobatic manoeuvres. A local RV4 came down recently after completely losing its empennage during aerobatics.

On top of that we often hear of RV pilots drilling their planes into the ground while performing aerobatics. Usually it's due to poor pilotage, but there's certain to be a number of structural/linkage/control surface failures in there as well. The truth is that the NTSB isn't interested in sending out a team of experts and spending millions of dollars collecting, assembling and analysing the charred remnants of an Experimental aircraft.

But having said all that, I certainly agree with you that construction flaws in aircraft systems is the really big danger.
 
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I have been an airworthiness inspector for 27 years and I thought I had seen all types of shoddy work at an OEM Manufacturer but a friend bought a Harmon Rocket kit that was 70% finished and had an uninvolved A&P do an inspection on it before he bought it. The report from the A&P was that the workmanship was not the best but it could be made good with a little rework. When the kit arrived, the work was just horrible,,,Shy edge distance, gouges from a grinder all in the skins, misaligned ribs, the 2 small engine mount attachments to the firewall had been ground off the mount, cracks in flanges, bent and cut rivets in every imaginable fashion, snip marks in cut off sheet metal parts, misaligned parts, nothing deburred, and a gouge from a grinder all the way around the front perimeter of the windshield, and the list goes on and on. I advised my friend not to work on the kit and just buy a new one, the screwed up mess he bought would have taken longer to fix than a new one would take to build and would never have been of the quality that gives you that warm fuzzy when you're in the air. He ended up buying a new kit and is much happier with the results. The bad kit was sold to an expert homebuilder who had plenty of time on his hands to rework everything. It just goes to show you, there are many opinions out there, some are good, some not so good.
 
LIke anything else, who is going to listen. I went and looked at a fellas airplane. He was very proud of it, I didn't like how much paint he put on it, I didn't like the engine. I let him know, he ignored me. He had problems with the engine, it didn't run good. He was trying to get it ready for a final and first flight. I tried to get him to get somebody knowledgable about the engine setup, mainly the carb. But he didn't listen. The local fsdo didn't like the situation and wouldn't let him do his first flight at my airport, so he had to pick another one.

Long story short, he crashed on the first flight and died. Cause, the carb.

We can do what we can, but WHO IS GOING TO LISTEN.
 
Unfortuneately, the purchaser (second owner) of...

.....
For instance it is a fact that one of Van's staff reported he came across an RV that had NO BOLT AT ALL in a rear wing spar (at the fuselage connection)...so the plane had been flying for an extended period of time with absolutely no connectivity between the rear spar and the fuselage. But of course if that plane had ever been pushed to +6G that pilot probably wouldn't be here today.
......

...that plane may not it treat as gently.....:(
 
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This is one of the BIGGEST lessons for tech counselors. We run across this quite often. I was involved in one project where we almost had to condemn the entire project. With a lot of supervision and rework, we managed to salvage it. The builder was very appreciative of our help.

i recently was looking for how to find a tech counselor- thought i'd save anyone a 5 minute search

http://members.eaa.org/home/lookup/FindTechCounselor.asp

this is a member logged in area, i don't know if you can get to the same database without a membership.
 
buyer beware

I purchased a mostly complete RV-9 tail kit and tools from another builder. The deal was fine. I got more than my money's worth on just the tools.

I started looking over the tail and have decided to just junk it and start over.
Here's just some of the atrocities I've discovered. Trim tab missing the internal foam ribs. The trim tab skin was split at the normal edge bend and a wedge was riveted in place. The bottom of the edge of the trim tab has 2 rows of holes drilled. No proseal on the wedge. The trim tab hinge was put on the bottom of the elevator, not the top. The trim tab sides that are bent over were misdrilled and have extra holes. I just started taking apart the left elevator. The control horn is pop riveted on -- barely attached. The inboard rib isn't attached to the spar with any rivets. There is a missing gusset on the other rib. I could go on and on. There are lots of glaring problems with the rudder. I haven't even gotten to the HS or VS yet.

Oh yeah, the builder was an A&P...
 
"these forums give a new builder a quantum leap head start. These forums must be responsible for increasing safety in general aviation." Yes, but....there's misleading and outright poor or wrong information on forums too, including VAF.

In the case of an RV build, I've seen that it's best to stick to the plans instead of following some of the well-intentioned but misleading variations and deviations posted around. Of course the plans don't cover a lot of non-structural stuff, one must study a variety of sources to be safe there. My point is, don't depend only, or even mostly, on these forums. Get the standard references on aircraft maintenance, rivet technique, electrical work, plumbing, study them and learn there.
 
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