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Hartzell Three Blade Composite Prop Update

N402RH

N402RH

Well Known Member
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Now that I have all the fairings cleaned up and the plane is finally painted, I decided that it was time to compare its speed with another RV-10. My RV-10 has the Hartzell composite three-blade propeller and in previous comparisons with two other RV-10?s, it was a disappointing 7-9 knots slower. The two previous tests were done before my RV-10 was painted and the fairings had been cleaned up.


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Yesterday, I had the opportunity to fly with Scott Gustafson's painted and very clean RV-10. Scott?s RV-10 has the standard Hartzell Scimitar propeller. We discovered that at 5500ft, 2500 RPM and full throttle, that both planes were going exactly the same speed.
I plan on comparing it with one of the previous RV-10?s later this week to verify the speed improvement. I have been thrilled with the composite propeller. It is extremely smooth and I really like that it can be easily repaired should it ever suffer any damage.

Upon landing, one of my neighbors walked over and proclaimed that it was time for him to show me how much faster his Bonanza F33A was. We took off in formation and climbed up to 5500ft. After flying south for around 10 minutes, we discovered that my RV-10 took around 2 inches less manifold pressure to keep up with his Bonanza (that was running full throttle). We then found that the RV-10 would go 10kts faster at full throttle.

Bonanza%20reg.jpg

My neighbors Bonanza F33A

Soon after landing, my OTHER neighbor showed up to discuss the results. He has a V35B Bonanza and everyone knows that the V-tail is faster. Ten minutes later we were taxing out in formation so that I could see how fast a real Bonanza was. We did discover that he was right, the V-tail is faster than the F33A and is only 7-8kts slower than the RV-10, and my plane had "all that gear stuff hanging out?.

Bonanza%20V.jpg

Bonanza V35B, photo taking just before going to full throttle.


Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
I did suggest that maybe we should retry it with the gear down :)

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
Rob,
Congratulations on a beautiful plane.
Quick question as it is not clear below - were both you and Scott at the same rpm and manifold pressure?
I have a slight bias towards 3 bladed prop as I went from 2 to 3 blades on my Comanche years ago (courtesy of the Hartzell AD)- and the smooth ride and vibration reduction of the 3 bladed prop is a definite plus!
Thanks,
Bill

 
"were both you and Scott at the same rpm and manifold pressure?"

Yes, 2500 RPM and full throttle same manifold.


One of the big advantages with the composite prop that people do not give near enough consideration to is that it is repairable. I have seen nearly new metal props with big filed out areas, with the composite prop you can easily repair it. I know of a SR-22G3 Cirrus that had one of the blade tips damaged when the professional pilot forgot to remove the tow bar before starting the engine, the prop blade was repaired.


This is what a RV-10 looks like from a Bonanza :)
N402RH%20B.JPG



Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
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N401RH said:
I did suggest that maybe we should retry it with the gear down :)

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Click to expand...


Rob,
You are truely evil. Not only did you outrun both those poor Bonanzas, but you rubbed it in afterwards... :D

I loved it!
Good on ya!

P.S. That is one gorgeous 10! I like the prop too.
 
"You are truely evil. Not only did you outrun both those poor Bonanzas, but you rubbed it in afterwards..."


If I were really evil I would ask:

Does your panel show the runways?
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Can you see Mount Hood on your EFIS?
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Rob Hickman
N402RH
 
I wanna see the Runway and Mt Hood!!

Rob, do you have your screens in the much slower Bonanzas?.....oops......I guess they will just have to wait for certification!!

I am weighing in to verify that our speeds at the same altitude and power setting were identical. I expected a different outcome but I was not faster.

I can't even say my plane is better looking because both our 10's look fantastic!

Scott Gustafson
 
So, just how fast?

So, just how fast are you (true A/S) at 5,500 feet at full throttle and how many HP?

Thanks
 
So, just how fast are you (true A/S) at 5,500 feet at full throttle and how many HP?

Thanks


We were showing 171 knots ground speed.
At 10k I regularly show a ground speed of 198mph.

Scott
 
RV-10 Speed

On my last flight with the V Tail we both went to full RPM and full power.

5,100FT
25 Manifold
2700 RPM
50 OAT
18 GPH
163 IAS
177 TAS


Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
Drifting a bit----

O.K., this thread is about props.

But, lower left corner of this photo?????

DSC_0183.JPG
 
N401RH said:
"You are truely evil. Not only did you outrun both those poor Bonanzas, but you rubbed it in afterwards..."


If I were really evil I would ask:

Does your panel show the runways?


Can you see Mount Hood on your EFIS?


Rob Hickman
N402RH
Click to expand...

You "had me at Hello", Rob. Your EFIS system is at the top of my wish list...I just gotta get those little quackers into line abreast so I can start the build process.

Taking Mike Starkey's hint...do you have the same composite Hartzell prop on your 4? (which is also a beautiful airplane, BTW)
 
So, what time did the 8 of you in 2 planes with 8 golf bags tee off?

Kinda like comparing a Ford Expedition to a Mustang?

Beautiful plane Rob!

Looking forward the that great AFS technology. When is the Deck due to ship?
 
Mike S said:
O.K., this thread is about props.

But, lower left corner of this photo?????
Click to expand...

Woah, Peek a bootie! Thanks for pointing that out. Maybe an AFS branded TruTrak A/P with something a little special mixed in?
 
"But, lower left corner of this photo?????"

That is our Autopilot that TruTrak manufactures for us. It is a special version of the Digiflight II VSGV that communicates with the EFIS. We have been shipping the autopilot for a couple of months.

http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AF-pilot/afpilot.html

"When is the AF-4500 going to ship?"
We are currently assembling the first 25 production AF-4500 units and should be shipping in the next couple of weeks. We have been flying a production built unit since Oshkosh, we are working on the last few software bugs and then out the door they will go.

All of our systems (AF-3400, AF-3500, AF-4500) have been upgraded to the new CPU and will be able to run our new ADVANCED SV software.

My RV-4 has the Hartzell composite two blade prop.

Rob Hickman
N401RH RV-4
N402RH RV-10
 
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Hartzell Three Blade Composite Speed

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I had the chance to fly with Dan’s RV-10 last night; this is the RV-10 that was previously 8-9kts faster before paint and cleaned up fairings. Dan’s RV-10 with the Hartzell Scimitar prop is now only about 3-4 kts faster. Dan had 25 gallons of fuel (150lbs) and I had 60 gallons (360lbs) and I had my son Brian with me, this makes us around 370lbs heavier. Both RV-10’s were painted by the same person with the same level of finish quality; both have one Lightspeed electronic ignition. Both planes had the same amount of ballast weight in the baggage.

I am now extremely happy with the propeller.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
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N401RH said:
Both RV-10’s were painted by the same person with the same level of finish quality; both have one Lightspeed electronic ignition. Both planes had the same amount of ballast weight in the baggage.

I am now extremely happy with the propeller.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Click to expand...

what is the base coat/ color on that RV 10? what is the upper color on your plane? they look pretty similar, a silver color, or even an anodized (hard coat with no dye) aluminum.
 
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Paint Color

I believe that both N402RH and N755SB have the same Silver
Metallic base coat on top: PPG 36570. This color is also used on
late model BMW's.

- Dan Benua
RV-10 N755SB
 
Aerobatic pilot, Gary Ward also found out...

...during a formation takeoff next to a mutual friend's RV-10, that he was being out-accelerated and asked him to throttle back some.

It was a race-off coming back from a S.C. breakfast meeting. He was soundly trounced up higher, in his F33 Bo.

Go back and carefully look at the Bonanzas...they look like porcupines with all those bumps and antennae sticking out!

Congratulations,
 
I appreciate that most of you guys are probably somewhat biased towards US products ;) but from all the threads I have read, the performance of the 3 blade Hartzell seems similar to the MT - that is, a few knots slower.

In that case, why pay close to double for a heavier prop? Is there any advantage other than patriotism? Being a true European, I'm going for the MT....... :D
 
In that case, why pay close to double for a heavier prop? Is there any advantage other than patriotism? Being a true European, I'm going for the MT.......
Click to expand...

Well........ buy the Hartzell two blade ;)
 
3 blade composite prop

Recently put new 3 blade MT on our Pitts S-2A. It is very smooth and has no restricted rpm band. However, it is slightly heavier than the 2 blade Hartzell (just about 1.5#) and is slower. Climb seems about the same - no improvement seen, although we had hoped for better low speed thrust at the end of up lines. From all we've been able to learn, the blades are not as tough as the metal Hartzell nor are they always repairable in the US. See Van's comments on the MT prop on their RV-9A which had a blade problem. By the way, maintenance firewall forward is much nicer with the two blade. Three blade is much more often in the way. Bill
 
The argument of 2 vs 3 blades seems to be one of a few knots speed against perceived noise and smoothness. Also the MT prop is lighter than the Hartzell 2 blade and only slightly more expensive. Which comes back to the point of what is the advantage of the 3 blade Hartzell over the MT? Seems heavier, more expensive and no speed advantage.
 
paul330 said:
I appreciate that most of you guys are probably somewhat biased towards US products ;) but from all the threads I have read, the performance of the 3 blade Hartzell seems similar to the MT - that is, a few knots slower.

In that case, why pay close to double for a heavier prop? Is there any advantage other than patriotism? Being a true European, I'm going for the MT....... :D
Click to expand...

Hurt our balance of trade, spend more money, fly slower.

Hmmm...

;)

I think Whirlwind is made in the U.S. and has performance comparable to Hartzell metal props (or a bit better?). But that's what competition is all about - so that people who have different preferences can get what they like best.
 
According to my Dynons....

....Mine trues 202 MPH at 8000 DA and 23"/2400 revs and around 72% power.

I have the two-blade scimitar and with 4 aboard and 45 gallons, we managed 197 true at 6500'.

The only new ground Van plowed here is the John Roncz airfoil. Other than that, pressure recovery fuselage and wheelpants....all just good ol' American engineering....90 degree fuse/wing/low drag junction, pointy cowl and low drag airframe is the result.

Best,
 
It's a metal plane...

pierre smith said:
The only new ground Van plowed here is the John Roncz airfoil. Other than that, pressure recovery fuselage and wheelpants....all just good ol' American engineering....90 degree fuse/wing/low drag junction, pointy cowl and low drag airframe is the result.
Click to expand...

....I'll stick with a metal prop:D:D

Yea, no big deal! From a modified St**** playboy via paper design- to a CAD designed 4-place, pre-punched -fast build- that out performs most older productions in cruse speed with the gear welded down. :)
 
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Pierre

Sounds about right, do a GPS box and check your TAS, you may have a small error, I have seen a bit above 175kts running ROP.

LOP normally gives 160kts +/- 4 depending on load and conditions. I had around 165 the other day at 41LPH and with 160L on board, 190kg of PAX and 30kg on the back.

Not bad motoring for a jam tin screwed together under the house! :D

cheers

David
 
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