FUEL EXHAUSTION!!(or so it would appear)

[Tandem46]

On August 7, 2005, approximately 0900 mountain daylight time, a Sheel Vans RV-8, N5754S, piloted by a private pilot, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain during a forced landing near the Fort Collins/Loveland Airport, (FNL), Fort Collins, Colorado. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The flight was being conducted under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91. The pilot was seriously injured and the passenger sustained fatal injuries. The flight was originating at the time of the accident.

According to an FAA inspector, the passenger's wife dropped him off at the airport shortly before 0900 for a personal flight with the pilot. Witnesses at the airport reported seeing the airplane in a steep left bank "like it was trying to land on runway 15. Suddenly, the plane made a steep, abrupt (approximately 45 degree) nose down descent." The witnesses said that the airplane pitched up when it was approximately 50 feet above the ground and impacted the ground in a "wings level, slightly nose low attitude."

Postaccident examination by an FAA inspector revealed that the left fuel tank was empty and the fuel selector valve was on the left tank. The right fuel tank had approximately "one inch" of fuel in it. One blade of the propeller was bent under the engine cowling, and the other was slightly damaged.

 

[RV10Man]

fuel fools

It still baffles me as to how people can be so stupid to run out of gas. I've never ever in my life, heard a good reason.

Marshall Alexander
RV10
wings-tanks

 

[gmcjetpilot]

It can never happen to me

It still baffles me as to how people can be so stupid to run out of gas. I've never ever in my life, heard a good reason.
Marshall Alexander
RV10 , wings-tanks

Well yes it seems totally avoidable, but many have done it including a B707, DC-8, DC-9, 767 and an A340 in recent memories. Near misses include the Supersonic Concord and a B747. I am not going to say never, until I retire from flying. Until then I will be paranoid, conservative and use every technique in the book to assure fuel in the tanks. I don't think anyone planned on running out of fuel. Fuel miss management has affected student pilots to a crew of 3 +20,000-hour airline pilots flying a B747's. I don't think stupidly (more like complacency) is the only factor. The first step to awareness is realizing it can happen to you, even if you are smart. The first step in having an accident is thinking you are too smart to have one.

Cheers George RV-4/RV-7 ATP/CFI

PS:when I no longer can fly, I hope a long time from now, when I am very old (older) and grey (bald?), I don't care if people say "He was a great stick", I would be happy if they just said "Well you know, he never did anything stupid".

 

[rv8ch]

Fuel exhaustion

The first step to awareness is realizing it can happen to you, even if you are smart.

This is very true. Every time I read about another accident where lack of fuel is suspected, I try to imagine the scenario that caused the situation. None of the people that have run out of fuel are stupid, or they would not have gotten to the point where they can legally pilot an aircraft. There is always a reason for this happening, and if we can learn about this reason, hopefully we can avoid the situation by seeing it playing out.

I know this can happen to me, so I work hard to make sure it doesn't!

 

[Rick6a]

It still baffles me as to how people can be so stupid to run out of gas. I've never ever in my life, heard a good reason./QUOTE]


This happened a few months ago to a conscientious and experienced pilot I know. This might not be a "good" reason for running out of fuel.......but the reason is certainly an understandable one.

Almost always filing IFR as a matter of routine because she feels the work load is made easier by flying the system, this time the Piper Lance pilot elected to fly the leg VFR. Nearing the destination airport located under the busy Class B of STL and in communication with a Class D airport mere miles from the uncontrolled destination airport, she made a mental note to switch tanks. Suddenly the frequency came alive with chatter and she was immediately distracted by a ATC vector to avoid a nearby news helicopter and other traffic crisscrossing the area. Scanning for traffic and now 1500' AGL just a few miles from the destination, the engine suddenly quit. She immediately switched tanks but it was too late. Without power, the Lance was decending rapidly. A restart try was quickly aborted as she was forced to make a turn to line up the aircraft on a small open field right next to a high density residential area. Clipping the tops of trees separating the field from the houses, she somehow made it down okay and emerged from the wreckage understandably shaken with just a few bumps and a bruised forehead but the airplane was totalled as the landing gear (in the down position) was shoved up into the wing structure as she pancaked in and caused massive structural damage. The left fuel tank was found empty, but the right tank had adequate fuel plus legal reserves.

Now some would say this is no excuse to run out of fuel........fuel mismanagement sure............ but I'll leave it up to a higher authority to pass judgement.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"

 

[TShort]

That's one thing I'm really going to have to make a mental note to work on when transitioning to the RV - most of my time is in high wing cessna's (trained in a 152 and currently fly a 172) with a little time in a warrior and a lance...
In the cessna, there is no fuel management issue - unless you want to balance the load, which never seems to be a problem in my aircraft. Just leave the selector on both and you're good to go...

I'll definitely have to add that to the checklist and make a conscious effort to remember it in the -8!

Thomas
-8 wings
deburring the ribs...

 

[svanarts]

On the way back from OSH this year I unintentionally ran one tank dry. I hadn't leaned enough and was using more fuel than I expected and it wasn't quite time to change the tank, or so I thought. It amazed me how quick the engine quit. There was one maybe two sputters and then silence. Boost pump on and switching tanks brought the engine back to life in about 5 seconds... 5 very long seconds. I was several thousand feet above the ground. I can see how a guy flying low (takeoff, landing, crop-dusting, whatever) wouldn't have time to do much of anything.

 

[Fallguy]

The "I'm not that stupid" line of thinking

Ya know,

I can relate to exactly what some of you have said. Although, I am just a student pilot who will be ordering an emp kit (after I check out the 7/7a pre plans we ordered); I have some similar experiences during the 10 years that I was an avid (and eventually, professional) skydiver.

Whenever a friend went in, everyone rushed onto the bandwagon--pee'ing on his crater--pompously stating that what happened was obviously avoidable. The judgement and attitude rubbed me the wrong way, and I gave the big picture some time in my head.

What I saw, after close examination, was that an accident was not caused by a single mistake. These serious accidents are often caused by snowballing cascades of little mistakes.

The gentleman who suffered from fuel exhaustion likely had made a decision to do something other than his norm; "I'll fuel at a different airport to save money; it's only a couple of minutes away." Then when his son in law (I think) calls and wants a quick ride, his earlier change doesn't dawn on him. Then, for instance, a lackluster pre-flight (I just flew it yesterday) may have all contributed.

I myself have been nearly killed after the same types of decisions. The most glaring one was jumping into my wedding reception with 18 friends (and my new wife). Leaving the go/no go decision with me was also a mistake because I was emotionally involved. I was also jumping much too small of a parachute (elliptical). I then decided to trust a windsock on the DZ despite my landing on the other side by the trees. I broke my tailbone, two vertebrae, a rib head and nearly shattered my heels not because of the wind shear; but because I had set myself up for it. (On the positive side, it did get us an appearance on the newlywed game).

Plan your dive and dive your plan. Checklists are there for a reason, as are guidelines for safety. Lucky for me, I lived to never live it down.

Anyone who merely pops off with the, "I'm not dumb enough to..." is avoiding how things actually occur. Complacency kills.

Sorry for ranting, but I think what happened is a better lesson for everyone else rather than a moment for everyone to stand on their pedestals.

Wade
7/7a plans, shop prep beginning

(oh, and I found out this morning my wife is pregnant again, but I can't tell anyone)

 

[robertahegy]

Doesn't sound like that guy had much fuel to start with. What ever happened to a preflight check of the tanks.

Sorry, there is no excuse for running out of fuel. If it ever happens to me, feel free to criticise me, cause I would deserve it.

Roberta

 

[svanarts]

(oh, and I found out this morning my wife is pregnant again, but I can't tell anyone)

Don't worry. No one will know. It's just between you and a couple thousand of your closest friends!

 

[Derrell]

Started flying in mid-sixties-Right seat OV-1 in V.N. -R/C - Cessnas - RV7A. I still can't understand leaving an airplane with a perfectly good running engine!

Derrell

 

[Fallguy]

About 2,000 thrill rides and...

only a few rides on a backboard.

Funny, I'm still afraid of heights (balconies and cliffs mostly).

 

[Build9A]

otherwise good pilots can make mistakes

I have been flying for only eight years. I have witnessed two (2) non-fatal accidents where the pilot forgot to put the gear down. Both times, I saw it coming while fueling my plane at two different non-towered airports. Both times, I tried to get on the radio to warn them, but too late. One was a multi-engine, commercial, IFR 4000+ hr. pilot who just picked up his king air after repairs and was checking it out in the pattern. The second was an active military jet jockey flying his friend's classic warbird. (Someone told me it probably resulted in getting his ticket pulled by the military). Terrible lesson for them, but a great lesson for me. If those two can temporarily zone out, it's a good reason for all of us to be diligent and use our checklists on every flight. jack

 

[Bob Axsom]

The point was made with the first post

Things seem to be getting a little trivial. Saying a person is stupid for running out of gas reeks of the CFI and pattern pilot world. Yes you should not run out of gas but the High and the Mighty and the Low and the Weak that travel by air with limited fuel face this risk all the time. In this specific case the unfortunate pilot had a terrible malfunction or he did not check the tanks before flight. Check your tanks before flight is the only meaningful message from this tragedy. Fuel management in general was not an issue here.

Bob Axsom

 

[redbeardmark]

fuel paranoia

...it's a GOOD thing!

1. Check the tanks before every flight and fly by hours of fuel consumption, not by the needle on the fuel gauge.
2. Never plan a flight that will leave you with only VFR reserves(in gallons, that really ain't much)... instead land with an hour of fuel... more if you are somewhere really remote.
3. Have at least two fuel tank alarms. Mine are the GPS fuel timer alarm and the engine monitor fuel timer alarm.
4. When flying over rugged terrain, ask yourself "Self, what would it feel like if the engine ran out of fuel right this second?" That ought to elicit an unpleasant sensation from the pit of your stomach, a good training aid.

I've done a awful lot of stupid things, but running out of fuel is one that I strive to avoid.

 

[Rick6a]

On the way back from OSH this year I unintentionally ran one tank dry.............. It amazed me how quick the engine quit................I can see how a guy flying low...........wouldn't have time to do much of anything.

When I underwent transition training earlier this year, I was curious and asked Ben how long the (O-360) engine would run if you turned the fuel selector to OFF. He said "Nobody ever asks that question." As he turned the valve to the OFF position he said "Start counting". Personally, I was surprised at how long it did take for the engine to quit........22 seconds.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"

 

[Bob Axsom]

That makes sense

With the O-360 the fuel delivery system is divided into two parts at the carburetor. The float controlled valve at the carburetor input cuts off the fuel delivery system from the engine operation part of the system and the engine actually runs off of the fuel in the carburetor reservoir until it is exhausted. During normal operations the float falls with the lowering fuel level opening the valve and refilling the reservoir until the float rises and closes the inlet valve again. If for some reason you select the all fuel off position in your manual fuel valving after shutting the engine down by selecting the mixture lean cut-off position and you attempt to start the engine later without opening the manual valve to a tank supply position the engine will start and run normally until the fuel in the reservoir is exhausted. This is enough time to taxi to a run-up location if it is not too far away. In an extreme case of urgency of course, one could actually get airborne. Using your timed test, one would have less than half a minute to do what ever one was going to do with this limited fuel. No, I do not believe that was the case in the accident reported here - just information.

Bob Axsom

 

[RV10Man]

thanks

Thanks Roberta & Mark.
There could have been other things happening at the time, but a preflight is still & always should be performed, period, & fuel check is part of that preflight.
There's still, IMO, no excuse to fun out of fuel. I know my 150 runs for 3 hrs 45 mins. I find fuel & fill up at 2 1/2 hr. legs. I like plenty of reserve. It happened on the way back from S-N-F last year. We couldn't get fuel in Newton, MS, no problem. Had plenty to get on to Jackson, it was only 35 mins. away. Bottom line...... no excuse.

Marshall

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Can you bend rules, and still call it a rule?

Thanks Roberta & Mark.
There could have been other things happening at the time, but a preflight is still & always should be performed, period, & fuel check is part of that preflight.There's still, IMO, no excuse to fun out of fuel. I know my 150 runs for 3 hrs 45 mins. I find fuel & fill up at 2 1/2 hr. legs. I like plenty of reserve. It happened on the way back from S-N-F last year. We couldn't get fuel in Newton, MS, no problem. Had plenty to get on to Jackson, it was only 35 mins. away. Bottom line...... no excuse.

Marshall

Marshall here is a perfect example, you where legal and completed the flight safely, even with the extra leg due to an unanticipated lack of fuel at your planned stop. However you justified continuing on another 35 minutes (to an airport you may or may never been to before). What if something else happend? You where already flying with less fuel than you planned.

How come no fuel at your stop? Out of your control no doubt, but what could you have done to avoid this. FAR's say "Know all available information". You landed at an airport you planned on getting fuel and none was available, mistake one (I have done it more than once). Could you have called on the phone before take-off or called unicom in-flight 50 out, before landing to check availability, saving the landing/takeoff and taxi fuel burn? DO you plan a primary fuel stop and alternate for every cross-country stop? Would you have taken-off if the alternate airport were 45 min away on your estimated 1:15 fuel, leaving the bare min 30 min FAR VFR reserves? What if you got to the alternate airport and found it was closed also? Had no fuel? Well I guess you would land and find a way to get fuel. Did you call ahead and make sure this other airport had service? IF not that could have been mistake two. Could you visually checked the tanks and did you? Would it do any good doing a visual. I know when my RV has less than 1/2 fuel you can really "dip it." (Hint call unicom enroute and ask for fuel prices)

With GPS my friends 6 year old daughter can navigate, but back in the day (before Loran or GPS) with VOR and pilotage getting lost, not finding airports was common. VOR reception flying down low was not always great. So a 35 or 45-minute flight could be an hour! I know, I did it. I landed with 35 min of fuel but I realized how little fuel that was. In your case 30 min is about 1.5 gal gas usable per tank. Not much fuel. That is where my personal 1-hour min was born for pleasure flying. I will not violate that.

Look no one is perfect, but as long as you stick to your guns, you are right, you won't do anything stupid. However you will be surprised how pressures (self imposed) can cause you to deviate from your guns. I know becaue I have drop my gun's a few times. My 1-hour reserve rule for pleasure flying is firm, period, and no excuses. I land at an airport with 60 minutes for fuel and can't fill up; I am staying until I get gas. Just because they don't have gas is no reason to deviate from the plan. That is a rule. Like your planned on 1:15 reserve, you decide to reduce your margins. You had good reasons and as PIC felt you could make the flight safely, which you did. I agree and may have done the same thing, since you landed with 45 min fuel. When faced with weather or weather/fuel issue will you deviate from the plan or your personal rules further?

Like all accidents, fuel mismanagement happens from many links in a chain. You got closer to fuel exhaustion than planned intentionally? Why? Well from what you said you had good reasons and it was safe and legal. How far will you push it next time, tired, late, weather approaching? May be 25 minutes reserve will work. What if something else comes up like weather cuts you off? OR The usable fuel is less than you think if you had (pick up problem, leaky gas cap, got less fuel than you thought, parked on a hill - fuel drained out the vent common with Cessnas and tank left on both - along with pure crap fuel gages.)

You get your pilot brief with NOTAMS. The breifer says nothing about a closed airport/runway so you think you are good to go. Wrong the airport closure may be a LOCAL NOTAM only. The briefer gave you distant D NOTAMS only. Also some NOTAMS go from Class I to Class II (printed). If you don't ask for class II NOTAMS and LOCAL NOTAMS you may be in for a surprise.

I AM NOT DEFENDING RUNNING out of FUEL or anyone who has done it, just saying it happens for many reasons. My plan per my panel placard "Don't do nothing stupid".

I agree pilots (people) do stupid things, and I am paranoid about being stupid. I have done a few stupid things in the past, but I have been fortunate to never bend anything or be violated in 10,000 hours. I jsut hope to get smarter with age. Keep up the safe flying.

Take Care George

George

 

[Ted Farmin]

fuel starvation

Curious, after the engine quit, and you switched tanks, could you pump the primer and get bursts of power until engine restarted? Providing you could think of doing it!
Ted

 

[fehdxl]

runway closed...NOTAM-D or NOTAM-L?

George, Part of what you wrote about NOTAMS didn't seem completely right to me, so I did some searching and found this FAA document:
7930.2J NOTICES TO AIRMEN (NOTAMS). I'll post some snipits of that document below, but briefly, my understanding (supported by the document???), is that when a movement area (i.e. runway) is affected (i.e. closed), then it will be classified as a NOTAM-D and disseminated as you described. Conversely, when taxiways (also movement areas?so the terminology is somewhat confusing) are closed, they will be classified as NOTAM-Ls. The difference being that NOTAM-Ds will affect a landing (a big deal), but NOTAM-Ls are more of a nuisance once you are on the ground. I agree that NOTAM-Ls can be surprising, but they won?t be disastrous (divert?). Of course, if you are flying into an airfield that is not published in the Airport Facility Directory, then this is all irrelevant. So, what do you think? I have the feeling you have an old war-story about NOTAM-Ls??come-on, we?d love to hear (er, read) it. -Jim

You get your pilot brief with NOTAMS. The breifer says nothing about a closed airport/runway so you think you are good to go. Wrong the airport closure may be a LOCAL NOTAM only. The briefer gave you distant D NOTAMS only.

A few snipits from the 7930.2J document

2-2-1. NOTAM CLASSIFICATION
When changes occur so rapidly that time does not permit issuance on a chart or in an appropriate publication, they are publicized as NOTAMs. Originators of airmen information are expected to inform the National Flight Data Center (NFDC) in sufficient time before the effective dates of changes to permit publishing of aeronautical data on the various charts or in the appropriate publications. NOTAMs are classified into five groups in accordance with instructions in this order. The groups are:
a. NOTAM D. Information that meets the criteria of this order and requires wide dissemination via telecommunication and pertains to en route navigational aids, civil public-use airports listed in the AFD, facilities, services, and procedures.
b. FDC NOTAM. Flight information that is regulatory in nature including, but not limited to, changes to IFR charts, procedures, and airspace usage.
c. NOTAM L. Information that meets certain criteria of this order and requires local dissemination.

3-1-2. CLASSIFYING NOTAMS
a. FSS specialists are responsible for classifying, formatting, disseminating, and monitoring the currency of NOTAMs. FSS specialists shall edit the content of all NOTAM data received from the originating source to conform to the NOTAM system
requirements. The FSS shall forward the NOTAM material received concerning another facility?s area of responsibility to that facility for appropriate dissemination.

5-1-3. NOTAM (D) MOVEMENT AREA INFORMATION
a. The flight service specialist is responsible for formatting the information correctly.
b. Movement Area NOTAM Ds shall contain these elements as discussed below:
c. Disseminate the following reported conditions as a NOTAM D:
1. Commissioning or decommissioning of a movement area or portions thereof. State the type of surface and lighting when known. State if unlighted.
2. Movement area closures and openings.
3. Conditions that restrict or preclude the use of any portion of a runway or a waterway.
4. Runway friction measuring as reported by airport management.
5. When reported by airport management, braking action is reported as fair, poor, or nil.
6. Change of runway identification.
7. Rubber accumulation on the runways.

5-1-7. NOTAM (L) MOVEMENT AREA INFORMATION
Disseminate the following reported conditions as NOTAM (L):
a. Conditions pertaining to single or multiple taxiways. Use runway format, identifying taxiway by number or letter assigned. If not identified, describe as adjacent to a runway or direction from the runway.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Great Info.

Fehdxl:

Wow, thanks for doing the research, I will copy some of this and put it in my PDA, appreciate the info. I was going off the top of my head. One time dispatch gave a crew an enroute alternate of a overwater flight; the alternate was closed. They did not need it but still One time for a personal flight, I don't recall in detail but I remember the FSS briefer omitted the fact my destination airport would be closed at time of arrival. It was not in the AFD. You would think that would be important. May be I needed to ask the right question. May be he thought I would get there faster? That is when I decided to understand NOTAMS. 20 years later you see I am still confused.

NOTAMs are confusing, at least to me and apparently some flight service specialist and dispactch people. Lets just say there are holes in dissemination of information. I think the system is still in the teletype age and not the info super highway. There have been documented cases where info was not put into the system and it caused a near accident. It involved a NOTAM that monitoring of the ILS, by tower was inop. Maintenance crews did something that caused the ILS to go into a test mode and was left there. No NOTAM for ILS maintenance either. An airliner using the ILS almost hit the ground while using the ILS, unaware the ILS was unmonitored. Since tower had no monitoring of the ILS they did not know maintenance was working onit. The crew did not know the ILS was unmonitored since the NOTAM was not sent. Since they noticed the altitudes and ROD on the approach did not make sense, needles centered, they went around and tried it again. On the 2nd approach they figured out the ILS was lying. They used another approach and landed. Even the smallest detail will get you. Yes some times closed runways don't get reported or read. See pictures:
(C130 did not get NOTAM of runway maintenance, night landing, last CVR "watch I'll put it on the #'s")
http://www.micom.net/oops/noNOTAMs1.jpg
http://www.micom.net/oops/noNOTAMs2.jpg
http://www.micom.net/oops/noNOTAMs3.jpg
http://www.micom.net/oops/noNOTAMs4.jpg


At least he had lots of fuel when he skid across the runway . Even with due diligence, it is hard to get all the info all the time. My feeling is I don't trust NOTAM's, even if the AIM says it is all good. Even if the info is there, there are too many NOTAMs that mean nothing and visibility on the critical ones get lost. Good on you, great info, thanks again.

Cheers George

 

[rv9aviator]

I don't think this could happen to an RV but this happened to me in my Cessna. After refueling and starting on the final leg home on a cross country flight I noticed the right fuel level was dropping like a rock. The fuel switch was set to both tanks which is normal in a 172. When the tank dropped down to less than a quarter full I switched to the left tank not wanting to draw air into the system. Then the left started dropping like a rock. I quickly found an airport and landed. What actually happened was the line person forgot to screw on the LEFT gas cap. The result was the left tank was sucking all the fuel from the right tank until I switched it off. It was keeping the left tank full. Then it started sucking the left tank dry. At first I thought the problem was in the tank that started losing fuel first but really it was the opposite tank. Probably stupid yes, certainly complacent for not rechecking the caps myself. I may try to fly a plane with no wheels or the engine missing but it will have the gas caps screwed on tight from now on.
Jim Wright RV-9A 90919 wings

 

[rv9aviator]

Goerge, you are right about notams. We recently resurfaced our runway (HRO) and the runway was closed but the taxiway was open for landing smaller planes. Had it not been for a radio contact from the pilot to the FBO on current conditions things could have gotten interesting. The pilot had gotten a briefing and all notams before the flight and was not told about the runway closing.

Jim Wright RV-9A 90919 wings

 

[L.Adamson]

snipped

Probably stupid yes, certainly complacent for not rechecking the caps myself. I may try to fly a plane with no wheels or the engine missing but it will have the gas caps screwed on tight from now on.
Jim Wright RV-9A 90919 wings

I've personally witnessed, flight with a missing RV fuel tank cap. A nice misty spray blowing over the top surface of the wing! From now on, the visual check of right and left caps from the cockpit, will be on the pre-takeoff checklist, in addition to the walk around.

L.Adamson

 

[robertahegy]

That old saying " I'd rather be on the ground, wishing I were in the air, rather than in the air, wishing I were on the ground!" sort of rings with doing a preflight. Sort of makes it like you're hurrying to get in the air, only to find yourself hurrying to get to the ground.

And as was stated in other posts, the preflight should also include all parameters of the flight such as the weather brief, flight planning, W&B, planned fuel stops with alternates insuring adequate fuel, checking the airports condition, Notams, TFRs, the whole nine yards. As pilot in command, we are responsible. No excuses. We all make mistakes. Recognizing them and learning from them helps keep us alive to fly again.

Roberta

 

[gmcjetpilot]

An old missionary pilot told me

I never had the Cessna cap issue. I heard of it. I flew with an old missionary pilot (the guys who fly over thick jungle several days walk from any person, place or thing). On take off I noticed he looked over his shoulder, behind the wing, left than right, real quick. After the flight I asked him about the lane change over the shoulder deal on the take off roll. He was looking for fuel flowing over/off the back of the wing. Hummm, Never thought of that. Cool. Just a thought, but apparently it works.


Starting the engines on a commuter (metro liner low wing 19 seater) one of the passengers yelled out, gas cap! The F/O looked over out the wing and the fueler forgot the cap. The F/O missed it because the cap was on the wing, blocked from his view by the prop balde. If the F/O would have craned his neck he would have saw it, but he looked out and saw a dark hole that looked like the cap was in place. This comes under the heading, happens.

George

 

[Bob Axsom]

It's nice to have everything cut and dried

For casual flying you should be able to minimize your risk by checking everything, have every consumable maxed out and wide margins on all the limits but if you are a low end operator with limited funds and hardware with the need to travel on a regular and scheduled basis where your job is not flying, you have to chose whether you are going to be a ground dweller or you are going to crank up you personal sensitivity and accept the responsibility and fly to the limit. For the last 15 years of my working life that is what I did - I will not go into the details but I never bent anything and I only had to file one CMA report with NASA Ames. I put well over 4,000 hours on Piper Archer N8304L and I loved that airplane. FSS information at the time of the morning when I had to make my go no-go decision was not much better that "Gosh its still dark out there and the tower doesn't open for several hours yet so we don't have any weather information". I got the LAX, BUR and ONT weather to give the best idea of ceiling and visability I could get, NOTAMs, and that was it. My life schedule did not allow me to waste time filling the tanks before every flight. My rules were if the visibility is a mile and the ceiling is 1,000, there are 6 qts of oil in the engine, I can see fuel in the tanks and I haven't flown over 3 hours since refueling I'm good to go. Then I would proceed with the preflight and go process. I heard a lot of guys every morning, often in the dark, over Los Angeles doing the same thing and I suspect they had similar operating procedures.

Bob Axsom

 

[RV10Man]

George:
We spent the night in Newton. All the info (AOPA dir. & a phone call) said fuel would be available. There was a phone in the terminal building, not a soul to be found anywhere. The only correct phone number listed on the board next to the phone was the police dept. They took us to the motel that evening & back to the airport the next morning. There were several "locals" at the Hardees that knew who to call for fuel but no one answered their phones. Yes, there were several airports within easy range in all directions, Jackson happened to be on the way home without back tracking.
The sad thing about the Newton, Ms airport is that it's such neat little place. Nice runway, good hangers, nice little office/terminal building, but no one around to sell fuel on Sunday. Ah well.

Marshall

 

[rvnupe]

Is it possible to purchase a fuel mixture valve with "both" as a selection for an RV-7?

 

[L.Adamson]

Is it possible to purchase a fuel mixture valve with "both" as a selection for an RV-7?

I believe it's no. Being a low wing, fuel will migrate from one tank to the other. Even to the point of possibly flowing overboard.

L.Adamson

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Per plans

Is it possible to purchase a fuel mixture valve with "both" as a selection for an RV-7?

I agree with rvnupe, but is not a matter of if you can buy one, you can, it is a matter of should you use one. The answer is no because common consensus / wisdom says so. I guess build it per plans, especially when it comes to fuel systems. I have seen many a fuel system in factory planes from simple (C-150) to complex (Twins and commercial Jets). The other advice many give after build it per plans is keep it simple and light.

The big advantage of always having it on Left or Right is you can always switch to another tank (presumably with more fuel). It is like having a reserve tank. The disadvantage is you must remember to switch tanks to fullest for takeoff, landing and in cruise to keep them balanced. Failure to do so could result in fuel starvation. The good part is a flip of the tank selector and boost pump should restore power is short order. With electronic engine and system instruments you can have a warning of low fuel in any tank, which should help the pilot from running a tank dry.

Cheers George

 

[robertahegy]

I think high wing planes have a third (small) tank that the fuel flows to before entering the carb and/or fuel pump. On a low wing plane you do not have that. If you are switched to both tanks and are doing a long banking turn, you will uncover one of the fuel pickups and start sucking air instead of fuel.

Roberta

 

[skelrad]

RV8 fuel exhaustion

The RV8 crash that started this whole discussion: investigators have found proof that the pilot purchased gas prior to flying that morning. No word as to how much, whether the pilot fueled up himself, or let someone else take care of it. But it's evidentally enough evidence that the investigators are going to be taking the plane apart piece by piece to figure out what happened. Just thought I'd pass that along. I hate to have a pilot labeled "stupid" for not checking his fuel when there could be other contributing factors to the crash.

 

[rv8ch]

Update

investigators have found proof that the pilot purchased gas prior to flying that morning.

Good to hear. Not saying this is what happened in this case, but I've heard of someone requesting fuel, the lineman/linewoman goes out and pumps the fuel, and comes back with the bill. Pilot takes off and finds no fuel. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what happened.