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Flush rivet RV-12

Hey, I would love to see one flushed! I have read that the benefits of flushing are realized near the leading edge of surfaces such as the wing, and not for the entire surface. That would be a good area to research. Unfortunately those are also the most difficult areas for conventional riveting with the long skins of the -12. Maybe countersunk pull rivets like are used at the wing root at the step area.
Then again, maybe the rivets are acting like little vortex generators and the short field performance will suffer! (tongue firmly in cheek here...)
 
Look at what Glasair does with the Sportsman 2+2. Flush rivets on the LE only. Once the air starts to separate it is a wash which rivet you use. Best of both worlds. Less time building and some (most) of the benefit.
 
Bill_H said:
Then again, maybe the rivets are acting like little vortex generators and the short field performance will suffer! (tongue firmly in cheek here...)
Click to expand...

This was one of the concernes voiced when we flushed the Sling. However it turns out the opposite is the case. The low speed performance has noticably improved - in fact so much that one could probably state that the slow speed imporovements outweigh the high speed improvments in value.
Not saying the 12 would do the same - but I think chances are it would in fact improve in a similar way.

Rainier
 
RV12 Flush Rivets

I think the key here if you are contemplating this is to get the letter of authorization from Van's or you may jeopardize the ability to register as an ELSA, in the states.
Terry
 
You say that as if there was some value attached to such registration. Over 7000 RV's happily flying without ELSA cannot be all wrong.
 
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ELSA or EAB LSA

Don
Well said
Ditto

Don what is taking so long to get your engine.


DonFromTX said:
You say that as if there was some value attached to such registration. Over 7000 RV's happily flying without ELSA cannot be al wrong.
Click to expand...
 
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Thread drift...E-LSA vs. EAB again

DonFromTX said:
You say that as if there was some value attached to such registration. Over 7000 RV's happily flying without ELSA cannot be all wrong.
Click to expand...

Don,
All 7000 of the EAB flying RVs were designed and constructed to a very different design philosophy. See the first page of the RV-12 order forms: Philosophy.

They are saying in a condensed way that the airplane is designed to be lighter, leaner, and less of a suitable platform for experimentation. None of the other RV order forms have such a statement.

As to value, assuming it survives major modification, the aircraft is not likely to be worth as much $$ as an unmodified E-LSA simply because it has not met:( the stringent ASTM testing requirements.

.02
Tony
 
ELSA or EAB

Tony
Then why did van get the RV12 approved for EAB.
I think the value at sale will depend on what modifications were added.
And don?t forget that most builders modify there 12 after certification with items that will remove or put in question the ASTM certification.
Some of us are very comfortable with making changes and some are not.
We all different and that is a good thing and it is good for the sport.
If we respect the other opinion it will be better.



Tony_T said:
Don,
All 7000 of the EAB flying RVs were designed and constructed to a very different design philosophy. See the first page of the RV-12 order forms: Philosophy.

They are saying in a condensed way that the airplane is designed to be lighter, leaner, and less of a suitable platform for experimentation. None of the other RV order forms have such a statement.

As to value, assuming it survives major modification, the aircraft is not likely to be worth as much $$ as an unmodified E-LSA simply because it has not met:( the stringent ASTM testing requirements.

.02
Tony
Click to expand...
 
Marty doesn?t the new owner have to take a class to perform the inspections.
And have a good understanding of what he is inspecting.




MartySantic said:
And more so, the ability for the OWNER to perform the conditional inspection. NOT POSSIBLE after the sale for E-AB. Only possible for E-LSA.
Click to expand...
 
EAB

joedallas said:
Tony
Then why did van get the RV12 approved for EAB.
I think the value at sale will depend on what modifications were added.
And don?t forget that most builders modify there 12 after certification with items that will remove or put in question the ASTM certification.
Some of us are very comfortable with making changes and some are not.
We all different and that is a good thing and it is good for the sport.
If we respect the other opinion it will be better.
Click to expand...

Joe,
The fact that Van hisself built his 12 as an EAB does weaken my position a bit ;)

Respectfully,
Tony
 
Tony I’m not talking about vans 12, I talking about the approval he got from the FAA 0n the 50% rule for us to build the 12 as a EAB.

I respect your position and I’m not trying to change it.

I asked Joe at vans when I ordered my 12 if they had any problems with it being built as a EAB and he said no.


I hope you respect my position.

Thanks

Tony_T said:
Joe,
The fact that Van hisself built his 12 as an EAB does weaken my position a bit ;)

Respectfully,
Tony
Click to expand...
 
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joedallas said:
I hope you respect my position.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Joe, absolutely do. Your website is in my favorites list. Great workmanship and attention to detail and I am looking forward to see you get back up to speed on your build.

Tony
 
joedallas said:
Marty doesn?t the new owner have to take a class to perform the inspections.
And have a good understanding of what he is inspecting.
Click to expand...

Yes, the new owner must attend the 16 hour class. The class is required as a perequisite to submitting the paperwork to the FAA to obtain the "Repairman - Light Sport Aircraft" certificate applicable only to the owned N-Number.

And yes, the new owner must possess the skillset to perform the inspection. The steps required for the airframe are very detailed in the "Maintenance Manual" as supplied by Van's as a part of the kit. The condition inspection and/or 100 hour steps required for the 912ULS are detailed in the ROTAX manual. The condition inspection steps required for the Sensenich prop are detailed in its manual. None of which are hard to complete.
 
joedallas said:
Tony
Then why did van get the RV12 approved for EAB.

[sniped]....
Click to expand...

One of the reasons (not the only reason) is to sell the kit to outside USA markets.

e.g. Canada does not have a ELSA category, but it will accept kits that have been approved for EAB in USA.
 
Maybe it is just the crowd I play in, but I find most second owners have no desire to qualify themselves and do their own condition inspection, rather they want me to do it as an A&P. I really don't care to do them, especially on aircraft I am not familiar with. Takes too long to figure it all out.
Someone posted that some large percentage of experimental accidents are caused by second or other than original owners, maybe this is part of that problem.

MartySantic said:
Yes, the new owner must attend the 16 hour class. The class is required as a perequisite to submitting the paperwork to the FAA to obtain the "Repairman - Light Sport Aircraft" certificate applicable only to the owned N-Number.

And yes, the new owner must possess the skillset to perform the inspection. The steps required for the airframe are very detailed in the "Maintenance Manual" as supplied by Van's as a part of the kit. The condition inspection and/or 100 hour steps required for the 912ULS are detailed in the ROTAX manual. The condition inspection steps required for the Sensenich prop are detailed in its manual. None of which are hard to complete.
Click to expand...
 
DonFromTX said:
Someone posted that some large percentage of experimental accidents are caused by second or other than original owners, maybe this is part of that problem.
Click to expand...

Can you point to even one case where a 2nd owner performed the condition inspection and due to unfamiliarity, the poorly performed condition inspection was the cause of the accident? This is opposed to being unfamiliar with the flying characteristics of the recently purchased airplane.
 
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