the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
Hmmm. Can't you fly a VOR approach with a GPS if it has the overlay? A GPS and VOR would be two ... can you use a GPS to simulate another type of approach like a NDB?
TODR
Van's Air Force
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Educate me on IFR.
- Thread starter akschu
- Start date
TODR
the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
Well, can you have the GPS give you bearing to the NDB? That's all the ADF does. You wouldn't need it to be in the database, just be able to have the GPS function as a ADF, right?
TODR, who is a long way from his instrument checkride
While the GPS will certainly point to the NDB the indications will be "rock solid" totally unlike the actual NDB indication. The reaction from the GPS when you reach the station will be a quick reversal of the indicator whereas the NDB will vary from side to side (assuming you are over the station) and finally reverse indication. They are no where near the same. I would say that someone training to fly NDB approaches with a GPS would be ill prepared to fly one using the actual NDB.
On another note I don't think I would pay to put an NDB in the aircraft because they are becoming extinct. Rapidly replaced by the GPS approaches.
the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
I think your second statement supports your first. If you're never going to fly NDB approaches, using a GPS to simulate one on the checkride is Ok.
TODR
John Clark
Well Known Member
Checkrides
If the discussion is about taking a checkride, no. the wording in the PTS is clear and no examiner is going to fudge on this:
"Flight instruments are those required for controlling the aircraft without outside references. The required radio equipment is that which is necessary for communications with ATC, and for the performance of two of the following nonprecision approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS. GPS equipment must be instrument certified and contain the current database. Note: APV approaches may be substituted only for nonprecision approaches in this standard. An APV approach shall not be used in lieu of the required precision approach."
Simply stated, you need to do 3 out of the 11 choices given. In the "old days" you used the VOR for one non-precision approach and the ADF for a second non-precision, then the LOC and Glideslope to do an ILS. Today you can do a GPS approach instead of the NDB. But you still need a second Non-precision, most likely a VOR. The approaches will have to be flown as intended and with the equipment specified. Remember too, some approaches require two sources of NAV, for instance, there are ILS approaches that, in the notes, require an ADF to fly the missed approach.
John Clark ATP CFI
FAAST Team Member
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
If the discussion is about taking a checkride, no. the wording in the PTS is clear and no examiner is going to fudge on this:
"Flight instruments are those required for controlling the aircraft without outside references. The required radio equipment is that which is necessary for communications with ATC, and for the performance of two of the following nonprecision approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS. GPS equipment must be instrument certified and contain the current database. Note: APV approaches may be substituted only for nonprecision approaches in this standard. An APV approach shall not be used in lieu of the required precision approach."
Simply stated, you need to do 3 out of the 11 choices given. In the "old days" you used the VOR for one non-precision approach and the ADF for a second non-precision, then the LOC and Glideslope to do an ILS. Today you can do a GPS approach instead of the NDB. But you still need a second Non-precision, most likely a VOR. The approaches will have to be flown as intended and with the equipment specified. Remember too, some approaches require two sources of NAV, for instance, there are ILS approaches that, in the notes, require an ADF to fly the missed approach.
John Clark ATP CFI
FAAST Team Member
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
No, I mean using the 300XL as your GPS/Com saves you about $6k over buying a 430W. Drop it to $5k if you add in one of the forthcoming MGL Nav boxes (about $600).
Correct - and the EFIS will function as the external indicator.
No, again I am suggesting that the forthcoming stand-alone Nav / Marker Beacon receiver from MGL will add that capability, and will also plug into the EFIS for HSI plus second bearing pointer situational awareness.
You are right that the 430W makes it a bit easier - but at a $5,000-$6,000 premium. For that price the only true added functionality you gain is WAAS precision approaches.
I personally have a GNS 480 now, which I believe slightly superior to the 430 because it includes Airways. However, I did consider saving the $$$ and going with the 300XL and (at that time) an SL30. I was familiar with the 300XL, having previously owned a 250XL. It's not a bad unit.
But, I would like to point out something. For people who rarely practice IFR, having a precision approach capability can lead to making decisions that push them beyond their training and/or currency. For those sorts of people, I believe that having only VOR / non-precision GPS might actually be a safety feature, as it will make them plan for more conservative minimums.
Just a thought.
Nice thread!
I thaught a lot on the above subjects and I was able to reach a few answers (still need one...see below).
I'm located in Italy, where WAAS is not active (so, I need ADF+DME).
At the end, I have the following:
- GMA347;
- GNS430 (still have to buy);
- SL-40;
- GTX328;
- King ADF 87;
- King DME 64;
- Dynon new gen. (still have to buy);
- Dynon 2 axis autop.;
- ASI TSO;
- ALT TSO;
- VSI TSO;
- Trutrak ADI (still have to buy).
What I plan to do is what most of you called lite IFR. This is because in Italy experimental airplanes may only at maximum gain an IR VMC permission (and only if one uses certified engine and propeller; that's why I had to buy both certified from Van's).
My question is: would it be legal using the EHSI/ERMI displayed in the Dynon or do I need a conventional CDI?
Thanks.
Camillo
I thaught a lot on the above subjects and I was able to reach a few answers (still need one...see below).
I'm located in Italy, where WAAS is not active (so, I need ADF+DME).
At the end, I have the following:
- GMA347;
- GNS430 (still have to buy);
- SL-40;
- GTX328;
- King ADF 87;
- King DME 64;
- Dynon new gen. (still have to buy);
- Dynon 2 axis autop.;
- ASI TSO;
- ALT TSO;
- VSI TSO;
- Trutrak ADI (still have to buy).
What I plan to do is what most of you called lite IFR. This is because in Italy experimental airplanes may only at maximum gain an IR VMC permission (and only if one uses certified engine and propeller; that's why I had to buy both certified from Van's).
My question is: would it be legal using the EHSI/ERMI displayed in the Dynon or do I need a conventional CDI?
Thanks.
Camillo
This is interesting. Does Italy not permit the use of an IFR GPS for ADF and DME information? In the US this is a separate issue from WAAS.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
My understanding is that for an E-AB aircraft that yes, it is legal to use and EFIS (Dynon, GRT, etc) to display CDI indications without having using a separate indicator (at least here in the US).
Thanks!
Thanks! I supposed so, but wanted to be sure.
For Jonathan: my engineer from ENAC (same as FAA) asked me to buy a DME. I then bought also an ADF, even if not expressily required of. That's because I spoke with local Garmin dealer and confirmed me the necessity of both ADF and DME. Even with 430. I don't know why. I trusted them. Anyway, I will check (even if I now own both systems...).
Camillo
Thanks! I supposed so, but wanted to be sure.
For Jonathan: my engineer from ENAC (same as FAA) asked me to buy a DME. I then bought also an ADF, even if not expressily required of. That's because I spoke with local Garmin dealer and confirmed me the necessity of both ADF and DME. Even with 430. I don't know why. I trusted them. Anyway, I will check (even if I now own both systems...).
Camillo
Budget in mind
Here's a GNS430 with the 106 head on ebay. Might keep you in the budget range and solve some of your equipment list issues.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...54&item=250363105511&category=90975&viewitem=
Here's a GNS430 with the 106 head on ebay. Might keep you in the budget range and solve some of your equipment list issues.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...54&item=250363105511&category=90975&viewitem=
Hehe - that price smells a bit too good. You might want to look up the serial number first....
Brantel
Well Known Member
Price does not look that great. Isn't this a non WAAS unit?
add 3 grand for the upgrade and this does not look so good.
godspeed
Well Known Member
quick question
Is the 3000.00 waas upgade really necessary for the type of IFR most RV people are doing, I was thinking, before waas, were people really complaining
about the acuracy of the gps and other features of a non waas 430's or
530's ? is it really worth it with all the other features those nav radios offer ?
Danny..
Is the 3000.00 waas upgade really necessary for the type of IFR most RV people are doing, I was thinking, before waas, were people really complaining
about the acuracy of the gps and other features of a non waas 430's or
530's ? is it really worth it with all the other features those nav radios offer ?
Danny..
I haven't yet upgraded to a WAAS system Danny, but I am paying lots of attention! just as the GPS approaches are taking over the rest of the world for non-precision procedures, I expect that as people find out how good WAAS works, these approaches will become the default in the future.
I wouldn't do anything to preclude upgrading to WAAS in the future.....
Paul
godspeed
Well Known Member
buying an non waas 430
I was only asking as I am buying a non waas 430 2000-3000 range, I
have no need for it, but want it , I can't afford 8,000.00 for a new
unit, but figured it has upgrade potential over a sl-30 and give me
a chance to learn with an option to upgrade when or if I ever needed
those features. any opinions ? on the above ?
Danny..
I was only asking as I am buying a non waas 430 2000-3000 range, I
have no need for it, but want it , I can't afford 8,000.00 for a new
unit, but figured it has upgrade potential over a sl-30 and give me
a chance to learn with an option to upgrade when or if I ever needed
those features. any opinions ? on the above ?
Danny..
Brantel
Well Known Member
The WAAS Upgrage goes way beyond accuracy for the 430 series. It gets you precision approach capability with vertical guidance, faster processor/update rate, guidance and GPSS steering for missed approaches, proceedure turns, holds ect. plus GPSV steering for coupled approaches. More but I don't remember it all.
Brantel
Well Known Member
Now that price is more like it for a non WAAS unit. With the upgrade you could still come out better than new cost.
Top_prop
Well Known Member
Wow
I can't say I read all eight pages, but some apparently sage advice wants a lot of gear at a min to fly IFR... while it will no doubt aid in situational awareness and flexibility, I learned intruments in an airplane equipped with:
a tacan
a vor with localizer only (no G/S)
a turn needle
a RMI with one needle for the TACAN and the other for the VOR
an attitude gyro
and a single CDI indicator (selectable to either the Tacan or the Vor).
After reading some of the posts around here its amazing that I successfully naviagted 1/2 way across the U.S. in it... as a student.
FYI I flew the same rig for the last six years, though now with the addition of a monocrome certified GPS (LNAV ONLY)... however the students aren't required to use the GPS and we fly all over the US in all sorts of weather...
its not magic...
Though I will add that a lot of airline/large transport millitary accidents have been linked to unfamiliarity with either the glass or the back up steam guages... I myself have got my self into trouble having my head down tweeking the GPS rather than watching my needles...
I can't say I read all eight pages, but some apparently sage advice wants a lot of gear at a min to fly IFR... while it will no doubt aid in situational awareness and flexibility, I learned intruments in an airplane equipped with:
a tacan
a vor with localizer only (no G/S)
a turn needle
a RMI with one needle for the TACAN and the other for the VOR
an attitude gyro
and a single CDI indicator (selectable to either the Tacan or the Vor).
After reading some of the posts around here its amazing that I successfully naviagted 1/2 way across the U.S. in it... as a student.
FYI I flew the same rig for the last six years, though now with the addition of a monocrome certified GPS (LNAV ONLY)... however the students aren't required to use the GPS and we fly all over the US in all sorts of weather...
its not magic...
Though I will add that a lot of airline/large transport millitary accidents have been linked to unfamiliarity with either the glass or the back up steam guages... I myself have got my self into trouble having my head down tweeking the GPS rather than watching my needles...
I just bumped into this old thread while looking for something else and figured I would provide an update:
I have purchased my panel and now I'm working though a wiring diagram. Here is what I have:
Advanced flight 4500 (advanced deck/synthetic vision)
Garmin 430W
Garmin GTX327
Garmin 495 portable
TT Digiflight II VSGV
In the end it cost a bit of money, but on the other hand it will work really well since I can use the 430w tied directly to the autopilot if the EFIS fails. The EFIS and portable GPS will continue to work on battery should I have alternator failure.
schu
I have purchased my panel and now I'm working though a wiring diagram. Here is what I have:
Advanced flight 4500 (advanced deck/synthetic vision)
Garmin 430W
Garmin GTX327
Garmin 495 portable
TT Digiflight II VSGV
In the end it cost a bit of money, but on the other hand it will work really well since I can use the 430w tied directly to the autopilot if the EFIS fails. The EFIS and portable GPS will continue to work on battery should I have alternator failure.
schu
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
No time to get into debate..........
But I have files since the 1950's of flight into terrain accidents. It's a subject that is dear to my heart..........so to speak.
Without doubt, this new technology will go a long way in helping to prevent these type of accidents. Have been far too many!
And P.S. --- I want to see students jump on the GPS bandwagon from the start. Some "old days" instructors still feel it's a crutch. Shame on them.
L.Adamson --- RV6A/Garmin 696
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frankh
Well Known Member
For me
IFR has become all about the GPS...Even though I run with a one month old database cus i share a subscription with a friend.
OK let me explain...
The only real approaches I do are either ILS or VOR/DME...I do practice approaches with the WAAS GPS....This is actually legal.
I do en-route flying with GPS..Of course I have made sure the waypoints shown are on the chart.Also legal.
Even on the ILS I have the picture on the GPS screen..Its so intuitive. Basically all the flying is done with GPS..What if the GPS goes phut?..Well then I ask for vectors, simple as that.
Thats about as complex as it gets in my world.
Frank
IFR has become all about the GPS...Even though I run with a one month old database cus i share a subscription with a friend.
OK let me explain...
The only real approaches I do are either ILS or VOR/DME...I do practice approaches with the WAAS GPS....This is actually legal.
I do en-route flying with GPS..Of course I have made sure the waypoints shown are on the chart.Also legal.
Even on the ILS I have the picture on the GPS screen..Its so intuitive. Basically all the flying is done with GPS..What if the GPS goes phut?..Well then I ask for vectors, simple as that.
Thats about as complex as it gets in my world.
Frank
Just a small thought, since you don't mention whether or not you have a redundant attitude.
If you have a small battery able to provide power to the TT (which only uses about 4 amps total) with a diode to prevent it supplying power to anything else, then in the event of power failure your AP will also continue to work (providing a backup attitude source capable of flying the plane).
this is a really dumb question...
how do you add a diode?
what kind of diode?
anybody has photos or diagram?
TIA
You can buy diodes at Radio Shack. You need one rated for the maximum current which might travel into the isolated battery. Dynon does this internally for their backup battery (and more, with current switching etc.), but you can "roll your own" this way.
A diode simply prevents current from flowing one way. Thus, inserting one between your circuit breaker and a battery which powers your EFIS (or whatever) prevents power from that battery returning to the ship to be drained by other devices. Can't draw here, but think of the wiring chain like this:
<buss> + -> CB -> Diode oriented this way ==> Battery(+) -> EFIS power switch -> EFIS (+)
Battery(-) would simply attach to your ground bus.
This arrangement would require that you manually turn on and off power to the EFIS to prevent draining the battery when you are away, but allows you to run the EFIS (EMS) during engine start without any voltage drop at the EFIS.
Just use care in choosing the battery and pick one which will not overheat at a continuous 14v ship's power. Also, I don't know the "best" kind of diode, apparently there is more than one kind. It may not matter for the small amount of current involved as long as it is sized correctly.
A diode simply prevents current from flowing one way. Thus, inserting one between your circuit breaker and a battery which powers your EFIS (or whatever) prevents power from that battery returning to the ship to be drained by other devices. Can't draw here, but think of the wiring chain like this:
<buss> + -> CB -> Diode oriented this way ==> Battery(+) -> EFIS power switch -> EFIS (+)
Battery(-) would simply attach to your ground bus.
This arrangement would require that you manually turn on and off power to the EFIS to prevent draining the battery when you are away, but allows you to run the EFIS (EMS) during engine start without any voltage drop at the EFIS.
Just use care in choosing the battery and pick one which will not overheat at a continuous 14v ship's power. Also, I don't know the "best" kind of diode, apparently there is more than one kind. It may not matter for the small amount of current involved as long as it is sized correctly.
turbo
Well Known Member
430 is a great deal...........
the 430 seems to be a great deal in function, value and units out there. it can do ils, vor and gps approaches. that will cover you for the check ride and usefulness when you are flying. also great resale value. it doent seem that you need wass and you can save $ buying used. garmin will fix anything for $600. great. mine has been in a few times in 3,500 hrs. enjoy. fly more. turbo
the 430 seems to be a great deal in function, value and units out there. it can do ils, vor and gps approaches. that will cover you for the check ride and usefulness when you are flying. also great resale value. it doent seem that you need wass and you can save $ buying used. garmin will fix anything for $600. great. mine has been in a few times in 3,500 hrs. enjoy. fly more. turbo
I'm sooooo confused!
I am in the process of planning my IFR panel with Trutrak glass, SL-30 and a 696. My reason for doing it this way is based on the ads in Sport Aviation from SteinAir which shows an RV panel with two Trutrak EFISs, a 696, a Garmin 327 and an SL-30 with a quote indicating this is a great IFR panel.
Is this a panel that lets me do anything but a GPS approach or am I missing something? Is this adequate for a GPS approach but not a LPV or LNAV/VNAV approach for which a WAAS compliant unit is needed?
I guess the inclination is to buy a GNS430W but in all likelihood do I really need that much based on what I plan to fly which is basically in clouds on occasion and just IFR enroute but down to minimums only in rare instances? An SL-30 is $4K whereas a 430W is $9K.
Let's be honest, if we're sinking $60,000 to $100,00 into an airplane project, it makes little sense to scrimp on avionics but one comment in previous posts is to equip your plane based on what you will fly 90-95% of the time not what you might fly the other 5-10% of the time. Rumors persist about the ultimate demise of the VOR/ILS system so will this ultimately require all of us to fly with a WAAS-enabled GPS?
This forum is a great source of information so I look forward to any and all comments.
Bill Near
RV-7A flying in sunny FL
There have been some interesting and well placed truth's spoken here (Webb, Stephen, Bill, Paul, etc..)! That being said, there is a point where I see this teetering on the verge of the old pennywise/dollar foolish thing. If you want the airplane to do a certain thing (in this case IFR work), then it really should have the appropriate equipment. Trying to do something like create an IFR bird at VFR prices at the absolute bare bottom works sometimes/kind/sorta, but most of the time ends up as folly down the road from a good reliable, safe, and functional standpoint. In this case, the 300XL is OK but certainly not a great use of $$'s given where the world is going for IFR. Everybody starts out with a certain budget or bucket they have to build the airplane by. It's how you ration out that bucket of money to make the best use of each of those $$'s that really, really matters.
I guess I'd say the same thing I tell many of my friends and customers. If you want to make it IFR, then do it...don't try to make it "almost" because I can guarantee you 100% you'll kick yourself later. I'm not an advocate of wasting money, just doing things right. If you truly can't afford to make the plane how you will want it to perform, then do the best you can. It's just most all of the time people look back and wish they'd have done what they wanted to do with the plane....even if it cost a few extra pennies. I don't think I've ever heard people come back after the plane is flying and tell me "boy I'm upset that I purchased the better equipment", but I almost weekly hear "jeez I wish I would have just bought that thing to begin with...will you take my other stuff back in on trade and sell me that other unit"?!?!
Sometimes people don't know the questions to ask, hence all the good advice I've seen on these forums. And also, don't be afraid that we'll look down on a Bearhawk builder....lots of RV guys are building Bearhawks, and lots of us have our eyes on that plane!
My 2 cents again!
Cheers,
Stein.
PS, I'm glad to see that most are over that ludicrous and dubious notion I've seen as of late that handheld GPSes are ok for IFR work!
I am in the process of planning my IFR panel with Trutrak glass, SL-30 and a 696. My reason for doing it this way is based on the ads in Sport Aviation from SteinAir which shows an RV panel with two Trutrak EFISs, a 696, a Garmin 327 and an SL-30 with a quote indicating this is a great IFR panel.
Is this a panel that lets me do anything but a GPS approach or am I missing something? Is this adequate for a GPS approach but not a LPV or LNAV/VNAV approach for which a WAAS compliant unit is needed?
I guess the inclination is to buy a GNS430W but in all likelihood do I really need that much based on what I plan to fly which is basically in clouds on occasion and just IFR enroute but down to minimums only in rare instances? An SL-30 is $4K whereas a 430W is $9K.
Let's be honest, if we're sinking $60,000 to $100,00 into an airplane project, it makes little sense to scrimp on avionics but one comment in previous posts is to equip your plane based on what you will fly 90-95% of the time not what you might fly the other 5-10% of the time. Rumors persist about the ultimate demise of the VOR/ILS system so will this ultimately require all of us to fly with a WAAS-enabled GPS?
This forum is a great source of information so I look forward to any and all comments.
Bill Near
RV-7A flying in sunny FL
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Bill, I recently bit the bullet..
...and sprung for a 430W to add to my -10. Yep, they're expensive but believe me, I don't have any regrets. During a GPS LPV approach, they're rock steady, whereas on an ILS, you sometimes momentarily lose signal and the flag comes up, or the LOC needle jumps left and right. I had this experience last Sunday morning and from now on, it's GPS only, if there is an approach.
It'll even show you which side of the runway you're on after you land...incredible accuracy.
Incidentally, this last Sunday was a trip that I REALLY wanted to make, on behalf of my grandkids getting dedicated. If you never have to absolutely, positively go, then you can live without a 430W.
And BTW, they can be had for under $8,000 brand new.
Best,
...and sprung for a 430W to add to my -10. Yep, they're expensive but believe me, I don't have any regrets. During a GPS LPV approach, they're rock steady, whereas on an ILS, you sometimes momentarily lose signal and the flag comes up, or the LOC needle jumps left and right. I had this experience last Sunday morning and from now on, it's GPS only, if there is an approach.
It'll even show you which side of the runway you're on after you land...incredible accuracy.
Incidentally, this last Sunday was a trip that I REALLY wanted to make, on behalf of my grandkids getting dedicated. If you never have to absolutely, positively go, then you can live without a 430W.
And BTW, they can be had for under $8,000 brand new.
Best,
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Brantel
Well Known Member
The 696 is not legal for any kind of GPS approach where it is the primary navigation tool (no portable GPS is). Just because a GPS is WAAS enabled, it does not mean it is good to go for IFR approaches, there is much more to it than that....
B
bryan12
e-bay
I was just reading this thinking that I have decided I will one day need the 430. I hoppe don e bay and within 2 minutes of looking 3 430s came up from reputable dealers. 1 an avionics shop. for around 5 grand. I would have it checked out by my avionics shop but this seems like a no brainer. Buy with your amex card for the protection.
a 430 with a 2 grand EFIS and a couple steam seems like a dynamic setup.
I was just reading this thinking that I have decided I will one day need the 430. I hoppe don e bay and within 2 minutes of looking 3 430s came up from reputable dealers. 1 an avionics shop. for around 5 grand. I would have it checked out by my avionics shop but this seems like a no brainer. Buy with your amex card for the protection.
a 430 with a 2 grand EFIS and a couple steam seems like a dynamic setup.
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Bryan, just be sure it's a 430W...
...and not a plain 430...big difference,
Best,
...and not a plain 430...big difference,
Best,
B
bryan12
I know that,,
W stands for WAAS but what is the difference? WAAS gets you vertical guidance?
W stands for WAAS but what is the difference? WAAS gets you vertical guidance?
Check this out for more WAAS info...good read if you need to ask this question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAAS
Garage Guy
Well Known Member
430 vs. 430W
Whole thread on it here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=49799
--Paul
Whole thread on it here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=49799
--Paul
Educate me on IFR
I see the original poster did get an education through this forum and finally buy his equipment. Good for you. I would offer the following comments.
The cheapest education on what it means to fly IFR if you haven't done any is provided by a simulator. Find an instructor or flight school that has one and take a few lessons. Preferrably find one that offers "traditional" training (6 pack steam gauges, dual VOR/ILS, DME, ADF) as well as glass on their simulator. This will allow you to "try out" the various levels of technology prior to buying them for your airplane. Only after this training did I understand the benefits of an HSI and was planning to include this in my RV-9A until the glass revolution overtook this technology. The training (up to the legal limit) counts towards your IFR rating and you will ask much more informed questions and understand the answers better with this experience.
Second, for your electrical system consider a dual alternator/single battery or a dual alternator/dual battery setup. IMHO vacuum pumps and vacuum instruments are obsolete. If you are considering a "backup" or stay alive small battery pack to run the glass or discrete instruments in your panel, the cost of a second aircraft battery is similar.
Still building the fuselage, so I am sure the equipment I am lusting after will change/improve when I am ready to buy.
I see the original poster did get an education through this forum and finally buy his equipment. Good for you. I would offer the following comments.
The cheapest education on what it means to fly IFR if you haven't done any is provided by a simulator. Find an instructor or flight school that has one and take a few lessons. Preferrably find one that offers "traditional" training (6 pack steam gauges, dual VOR/ILS, DME, ADF) as well as glass on their simulator. This will allow you to "try out" the various levels of technology prior to buying them for your airplane. Only after this training did I understand the benefits of an HSI and was planning to include this in my RV-9A until the glass revolution overtook this technology. The training (up to the legal limit) counts towards your IFR rating and you will ask much more informed questions and understand the answers better with this experience.
Second, for your electrical system consider a dual alternator/single battery or a dual alternator/dual battery setup. IMHO vacuum pumps and vacuum instruments are obsolete. If you are considering a "backup" or stay alive small battery pack to run the glass or discrete instruments in your panel, the cost of a second aircraft battery is similar.
Still building the fuselage, so I am sure the equipment I am lusting after will change/improve when I am ready to buy.
What Pierre said...if you pay $5K for a non warrantied used non WAAS 430 likely without terrain, you add $3K to it and now you're into it for MORE than a BRAND NEW 430W will cost you (with a warranty, known good and from a known entity).
Nothing wrong with the straight 430's, just know what you're looking at before you get something you didn't bargain for. As a good example...there is a "G900X" system on Ebay right now sold by a "reputable person with 100% feedback"; Except, it'll never work as a G900X system, because some of the boxes are the wrong part number. What at first seems like a screamin deal becomes an expensive lesson (already it's bid up to $15K by people who likely don't know it'll never work the way it sits in the auction).
Lastly, building your plane by committee isn't always the best method either. Figure out how you're going to fly the plane, what YOU want, YOUR experience level, YOUR budget and then get some good objective advice. These forums can be and many times are a great resource, but one also must temper that with being able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Internet experts are easy to come by...no flame intended because there are lots of smart, experienced people here, but not all.
My 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
Upgrading this weekend
My 430W is in the car, the wiring harness and audio panel is (according to UPS) going to arrive tomorrow from Stein, and I have some installation to do. Then the instrument rating. It is threads like this that help so much in not only figuring out what to buy, but how to plan on using it. After 35 years of flying, I understand personal minimums, and acceptable risk. I don't have dual electrical system, but I have backups for most anything else I can imagine. The 430W was hard on the budget, but I know it will be worth it. Thanks to all who helped those of us still in the VFR boat, and I'll let you know how it goes.
BTW, our EAA chapter has an Elite simulator with 430W which we rent at $15/hr, plus instructor if you need one. It is both single- and multi-engine. You get a couple hours free up front to get used to it. We have at least one guy on this forum that comes down from Indy to use it, but anyone is welcome. I plan on using it all I legally can... At OVO, North Vernon, Indiana.
Bob Kelly
My 430W is in the car, the wiring harness and audio panel is (according to UPS) going to arrive tomorrow from Stein, and I have some installation to do. Then the instrument rating. It is threads like this that help so much in not only figuring out what to buy, but how to plan on using it. After 35 years of flying, I understand personal minimums, and acceptable risk. I don't have dual electrical system, but I have backups for most anything else I can imagine. The 430W was hard on the budget, but I know it will be worth it. Thanks to all who helped those of us still in the VFR boat, and I'll let you know how it goes.
BTW, our EAA chapter has an Elite simulator with 430W which we rent at $15/hr, plus instructor if you need one. It is both single- and multi-engine. You get a couple hours free up front to get used to it. We have at least one guy on this forum that comes down from Indy to use it, but anyone is welcome. I plan on using it all I legally can... At OVO, North Vernon, Indiana.
Bob Kelly
I appreciate everybody's input....
on this subject. As I looked at the Steinair panel in Sport Aviation I thought that was the panel I wanted but as I have really checked into this, it appears that the panel really needs the 430W to make this an IFR panel that going forward will be useable and current for some time. If the VOR/ILS system is ultimately decommissioned then this panel should be adequate. Once again, the panel has two Trutrak EFIS, a 696, an SL-30 and a Garmin 327. Once I build this panel,it also appears this will be adequate for instrument training. Now the next issue will be whether any instructor will want to train me in my plane.
Thanks all!
on this subject. As I looked at the Steinair panel in Sport Aviation I thought that was the panel I wanted but as I have really checked into this, it appears that the panel really needs the 430W to make this an IFR panel that going forward will be useable and current for some time. If the VOR/ILS system is ultimately decommissioned then this panel should be adequate. Once again, the panel has two Trutrak EFIS, a 696, an SL-30 and a Garmin 327. Once I build this panel,it also appears this will be adequate for instrument training. Now the next issue will be whether any instructor will want to train me in my plane.
Thanks all!
Jordan1976
Well Known Member
Before you buy a whole panel of equipment, make sure you read the FAR's on the minimum equipment for IFR and VFR flight and make sure your panel includes everything on that list. In particular, verify that the EFIS you choose meets the requirements of the MEL if you want to use it for a given item. Not all EFIS units work the same, and some may not meet the a lot of the MEL items.
--Ian
Dynon Employee, not at work.
--Ian
Dynon Employee, not at work.
RV10inOz
Well Known Member
Remember this little gem..........
Success doesn't bargain with the price!
And when its IFR .... YOUR PASSENGERS life is in your hands even more so than before.
If you are building an aircraft for IFR ops there is NO ROOM for thinking cheap!
Stein has plenty of good ideas on the matter and many others here too, and remember "the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten".
In my opion have dual everything, no... not autopilots....you are the backup, but lets look at it this way. If the TSO'd radio and nav packs up...what have you got? If your main power source fails what have you got? If my AH/EFIS fails what have I got?
Now your back up radio may only be a VFR radio, and the nav may only be a G196......you already meet the legal requirement, the second layer just needs to get you to an airport safely.
So in our system shown below, its a D100 and D180, a G530W and a SL40/G296 if the battery system is taken out a second batery with just an avionics bus is available.
I had a compass head fail the other day....no problem the D180 was still good to go! So I used the HSI on the D180.
And a full view of the whole panel...
Success doesn't bargain with the price!
And when its IFR .... YOUR PASSENGERS life is in your hands even more so than before.
If you are building an aircraft for IFR ops there is NO ROOM for thinking cheap!
Stein has plenty of good ideas on the matter and many others here too, and remember "the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten".
In my opion have dual everything, no... not autopilots....you are the backup, but lets look at it this way. If the TSO'd radio and nav packs up...what have you got? If your main power source fails what have you got? If my AH/EFIS fails what have I got?
Now your back up radio may only be a VFR radio, and the nav may only be a G196......you already meet the legal requirement, the second layer just needs to get you to an airport safely.
So in our system shown below, its a D100 and D180, a G530W and a SL40/G296 if the battery system is taken out a second batery with just an avionics bus is available.
I had a compass head fail the other day....no problem the D180 was still good to go! So I used the HSI on the D180.
And a full view of the whole panel...
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That's a good point..while the SL-30 + 696 makes you technically legal for Navigating via VOR/LOC/GS/LOC and gives you tremendous situational awareness (plus the XM weather and music), it doesn't make you legal for LPV/WAAS approaches or technically en-route as well. Many people have pointed out that there are now more WAAS approaches than ILS's, and the number of WAAS approaches are growing exponentially compared to ILS's. VOR's will be around as long as the airlines still need/use them, but once NextGen, RVSM and RNP approaches are adopted by the big iron and the Feds, I think that's when we'll really start to see a drop in VOR's, etc..
At the moment the 430/530's are a great (albeit pricey) box that covers you for everything. Plus, it talks to most EFISes and Autopilots that customers install for serious IFR use, allowing for GPS steering/coupled approaches, etc... Can you get by without a 430? Sure, but in the end if you take the IFR environment seriously and you equip your plane properly, you'll really appreciate having it installed. I think most will agree that it's perfectly fine to fly IFR without a 430, but much nicer to do it with one.
Anyway, lots of good discussion here! I'm heading off to bed because it's serious IMC outside...It's cold and supposed to snow tomorrow - it was 80 degrees earlier in the week...I was hoping Winter was over already!
Cheers,
Stein
Thanks
I'm glad you weighed in here, Stein. I was anxious to get your input regarding this. I've been studying this a lot lately as I have been starting the preliminary work on my instrument rating. Especially as I look into what's needed to fly IFR in current world of EFIS and GPS. The FARs are rather vague in this so it really is up to us homebuilders to read between the lines to figure this all out. Now I just need to email Paul Story, Overlord of Customer Service, to give me a new quote.
Thanks again to all who contributed here.
Bill Near
I'm glad you weighed in here, Stein. I was anxious to get your input regarding this. I've been studying this a lot lately as I have been starting the preliminary work on my instrument rating. Especially as I look into what's needed to fly IFR in current world of EFIS and GPS. The FARs are rather vague in this so it really is up to us homebuilders to read between the lines to figure this all out. Now I just need to email Paul Story, Overlord of Customer Service, to give me a new quote.
Thanks again to all who contributed here.
Bill Near
pierre smith
Well Known Member
You'll never regret buying one, Bill....
...and I can't even begin to remember all that it does....for instance....holding patterns are depicted , plus the entry!! be it teardrop or parallel.
During GPS approaches, it tells you when to turn, in seconds, to avoid overshooting the next leg, and DEPICTS your ground path to the next leg as well...all auto-zoomed, plus the next checkpoint, by name, and miles to it from IAF to FAF, everything depicted clearly.
Yes, I'm in love,
...and I can't even begin to remember all that it does....for instance....holding patterns are depicted , plus the entry!! be it teardrop or parallel.
During GPS approaches, it tells you when to turn, in seconds, to avoid overshooting the next leg, and DEPICTS your ground path to the next leg as well...all auto-zoomed, plus the next checkpoint, by name, and miles to it from IAF to FAF, everything depicted clearly.
Yes, I'm in love,
Dean Pichon
Well Known Member
You can't build as fast as the avionics improve...
This is directed to no one in particular, rather it is my 2 cents with regard to avionics selection. Planning the panel while building the tail will most likely be a wasted exercise unless you are a very fast builder. The pricing and technology will be so different, what you actually install will have little resemblance to what was daydreamed years before.
When I built my -4, I designed the panel and bought the avionics last. All was the latest technology in 1999 (cool new stuff like the Apollo SL60 - or is it UPS or Garmin?) I tried to make as many decsions as possible after the airframe was basically complete and after the engine had arrived. By the the time I flew it a little more than a year later, much of the panel was dated with all those round EI gages, SL series transponder, radio, and GPS.
With hindsight, I should have built a panel with modular sections that could have been easily replaced so the standard 6-pack holes could have been quickly replaced with a couple of large, square holes for an EFIS or two.
My advice is to postpone these purchases as long as possible and to direct your design energy toward making a cockpit that can be easily updated to take advantage of new technologies.
Good luck,
Dean
Bolton, MA
This is directed to no one in particular, rather it is my 2 cents with regard to avionics selection. Planning the panel while building the tail will most likely be a wasted exercise unless you are a very fast builder. The pricing and technology will be so different, what you actually install will have little resemblance to what was daydreamed years before.
When I built my -4, I designed the panel and bought the avionics last. All was the latest technology in 1999 (cool new stuff like the Apollo SL60 - or is it UPS or Garmin?) I tried to make as many decsions as possible after the airframe was basically complete and after the engine had arrived. By the the time I flew it a little more than a year later, much of the panel was dated with all those round EI gages, SL series transponder, radio, and GPS.
With hindsight, I should have built a panel with modular sections that could have been easily replaced so the standard 6-pack holes could have been quickly replaced with a couple of large, square holes for an EFIS or two.
My advice is to postpone these purchases as long as possible and to direct your design energy toward making a cockpit that can be easily updated to take advantage of new technologies.
Good luck,
Dean
Bolton, MA
430W vs. 530W
Thanks for all of the invaluable advice from people who know a lot more than I do. I am at the point where I need to order the panel and have been going back & forth between the 430 and the 530. Other than the obvious (size) are there any real world differences in the hardware/software between the two?
Thanks,
Mark
Thanks for all of the invaluable advice from people who know a lot more than I do.
I am at the point where I need to order the panel and have been going back & forth between the 430 and the 530. Other than the obvious (size) are there any real world differences in the hardware/software between the two?Thanks,
Mark
