I just saw an incident report that an RV-10, N316JS, lost a door in flight near Columbus, IN on Aug 22. The aircraft landed safely. Anyone know the details of what happened?
In the past it's always been the same issue: the doors are flexible enough that it's possible to have the aft pin miss the engagement hole and slide outside the fuselage.
For myself, I do not allow unsupervised passengers to close any door.
I physically look at the aft edge of the doors at runup (checklist item).
Agree with Sean's system. Van's needs to step up and just make it part of the kit "vetterman" style.
I just saw an incident report that an RV-10, N316JS, lost a door in flight near Columbus, IN on Aug 22. The aircraft landed safely. Anyone know the details of what happened?
Some of the door departures were because the rear pin was not engaged. Some had both pins engaged, and fully so. The center cam is a nice feature, but it does not solve the RV-10 door problem.
Jesse,
Not trying to parse your words, but are you saying that even with the center cam engaged, the doors are still at risk of departing the aircraft?
Some of the door departures were because the rear pin was not engaged. Some had both pins engaged, and fully so. The center cam is a nice feature, but it does not solve the RV-10 door problem.
That's what I am saying. I have experienced and seen and know of quite a number of cases where both door pins were fully engaged and the doors came open. The cam helps get he pin engaged, but it releases with the release of the handle as well. In the cases above, the handle rotated, releasing the pins, releasing the door.
Don't get me wrong, and I think I made this point earlier, I am not saying e cam doesn't serve a purpose, but with properly fit doors that are properly closed, they are not needed. On poorly fit doors or doors not closed properly, he cam does definitely help.
I actually think the cam system is quite clever, and wish I had thought of it.
I also think it is quite expensive, so it is builder choice (part of being experimental) whether they want to invest in it or not.
I do not consider it an essential upgrade.
If pilots use the same level of care
with the doors, as they should with all other critical preflight items (including having a warning system installed and using it as part of their pre-takeoff check, the doors are safe as is.
Scott, this is where myself and many other RV-10 builders have a different opinion. The nice things about opinions is that there is no right or wrong opinion.
Too expensive is always a relative term. It's not too expensive if it allows me more confidence that the doors are aligned properly and pins engaged as designed. I also agree that I prefer Sean's approach to have the pins engaged deeper into the cabin than the Van's plans.
Another opinion shared by many that the Van's latch design is way to frugal and poorly designed. Yes it's functional. But who wants a hole in the exterior of the door to collect water and other debris, plus it adds some minute level of drag.
Like I said, these are just opinions and may very well be viewed differently with people having different perspectives on the situation.
Then one day as I was departing Appleton for Oshkosh during the show, I was in the normal oshkosh hurry to get back to the show and after I was off the ground, found my daughter didn't have the aft pin seated on her door. I had her pull hard on the handle and hold the door in place while we contacted the tower and returned to the field to latch it. All ended up well. But, that was luck. There is a lot of suction pulling the door away from the plane when in flight. Having that extra cam in the middle is good not only for alignment, but for one more latching point to counteract this suction on a somewhat flexible door.
So I've said for years now, I think that latch should be made standard equipment on every RV-10.
So I've said for years now, I think that latch should be made standard equipment on every RV-10. Don't build one without it. I wouldn't care if it was $750, if you build the plane without one these days, you're just being a nut and probably deserve the consequence...the information is out there.
I have the 180 degree. With the cam, there is no way to close a door and just get the front pin to start and have the rear pin not start also.
I saw that only the front pin was engaged, no cam engagement and the rear pin was on the outside of the plane. The light was on but he didn't notice. ..... So, at least in this example the front pin DID engage without the center cam engaging.
$400 for extra Carbon, or $400 for an extra latch, on a system that's been shown to work just fine without either when it's used properly.With this in mind, if flexibility of the RV10 doors is a challenge to the integrity of the latching system, perhaps stiffening the doors through the limited use of carbon fiber in their layup would provide correction of the problem at a root cause level?
, you might want to start using checklist,
Why wouldn't you install it initially?
John Koonce
N78MU
I'm definitely in the "get a Planearound-type center cam installed standard" school. Several reasons for that:I disagree with your statement that the aftermarket latch needs to be made "standard".
When built according to plan with door pins engaging into the aluminum structure as intended, those doors will not come off. I have the indicator lights
installed as provided in the kit and did not install the knee jerk reaction
"patch latch" in the center, after several RVs 10s lost their door.
I let no one close the door except me and you are correct in that I deserve the consequences if I get careless. I regularly fly with my wife and kids and they are not allowed to close the door without me pulling the rear shut and observing the proper pin engagement while they close the handle.
I am not paranoid about it, it is just what I do and has become a habit.
"Doors closed" is a solid part of my checklist, both in engine start and run up sequence and includes visual verification and lights out directly in front of me,
above and outside of the EFIS clutter.
For those with 100s if not thousands of hours in the RV10, has anyone seen an occurrence where indicator light showed doors closed and in fact they were not latched properly? Just curious as I look at the mechanism used for "sensing" door latchment.
Point of this post: a few weeks ago I was watching the owner of the most recent 10 as he was preparing to taxi out for take off. I happened to notice that the door was not properly closed. After flagging him down and looking closer I saw that only the front pin was engaged, no cam engagement and the rear pin was on the outside of the plane. The light was on but he didn't notice. He is an elderly gentleman and a bit wider than average. In his case he did not use the rear pull handle AND when his left hand is on the door handle his forearm and elbow are in contact with the door. So, his forearm is acting as a lever (chicken wing) that keeps the center and aft section of the door OUT as the door is closing. So, at least in this example the front pin DID engage without the center cam engaging.
IMO Vans factory system is fine and if you desire the center cam that is fine. But neither are fool proof.
With almost 2000 hours now in mine and various other RV's, I have not seen the doors NOT be latched and the warning lights not work. That DOESN'T mean it can't happen. We always call "doors Latched" when rolling on to the runway for departure.
BTW, I concluded that a warning light which was always ON due to the doors being open could possibly be overlooked at a crucial time due to a distraction, such as Tower saying "depart immediately". Since we taxi around in Atlanta most of the time with the doors open due to the heat, I wanted something to get my attention when it is really warranted, so I wired the door warning circuit to a micro-switch on the throttle quadrant. Now the lights stay off for taxi but jump right out at me if I advance the power enough, such as for takeoff.
Vic
The Dynon system has a feature not widely known that uses manifold pressure to act in the same way Vic used a microswitch so the canopy light is not on unless the power is advanced above idle. The feature is built in to all the Skyview units.
***Canopy- Locked*** Nice thing to add to your run up check. You are already safely stopped and have the power up. It is possible the others (Garmin, MGL, GRT etc) may have this now as well but if not, Vic's method will really help save the day.