Van's Air Force
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Does Vans have something up his sleave
- Thread starter gmpaul
- Start date
aeroaddict
Well Known Member
Ha!
For me that is a huge paradigm shift in engine technology and not attractive.
But I still think cars should come with V-8's.
For me that is a huge paradigm shift in engine technology and not attractive.
But I still think cars should come with V-8's.
Skid
Well Known Member
And stick shifts.
Back to the RV-9A with the Rotax…..I hear it now has a 916iS in place of the 915 (just….becasue!), and we covered it pretty extensively in Kitplanes last year:
www.kitplanes.com
Paul
On the Nose! - KITPLANES
Lockwood’s Rotax-powered RV-9A is more than just fancy rhinoplasty.
www.kitplanes.com
Paul
Dr_Dave_MT
Well Known Member
CaptPausert
Well Known Member
I guess my problem with the rotax conversion is that the 916is is $50,000. My A&P friend is helping me rebuild an IO-320 which we are going to be able to rebuild for under $30,000. It would have been under $23,000 except for having to replace the crankshaft that ended up having a crack in the oil hole. Even if i decide to put FlyEFII system 32 on it instead of overhauling the mags and carb it will top out around $33,000. You can buy an superior IO-320 for around $36-37K. The 916IS will burn around 5gph and the IO-320 around 7. call it $4.25 for 91 octane fuel which the IO-320 will burn and you are saving about $8.50 per hour. Even at the more expensive end of the IO-320 that is over 1600 hours to break even and more like 2000 for me and the overhaul cost will be higher. I guess it is really hard to swing that extra cost, and i didn't even factor in modification of the airframe costs, when I am trying to keep my costs down. If they could figure out how to get the 916is under $40000 I think it would a lot more palatable
You’re right that modifying a flying airplane (with a flying engine) makes the costs look pretty excessive. But for a new build where you have to buy a FWF kit, engine, and Prop, the difference between the Lycoming option and the ROTAX is more liek $20-$25K on a $180K-200K aircraft. In terms of absolute dollars, if you’re counting every singel penny, then years - pretty expensive. If looked at as a delta in the percentage of the total aircrft cost, it is not so far out in left field - if you want something unique and that cruises high and fast…..
I’ll say I gave it serious consideration as a new project to replace our RV-6 for cross-countries…then this Rocket fell in my lap, and the shop became occupied….
I am so happy to see people looking for alternatives. It seems hard to compare apples to apples. I love my Lycoming engines but they are expensive and fuel is expensive. I think the Rotax is very different and would hope as production increases cost will improve, at least not go up. The Rotax is more self contained lighter and produces efficient constant power. They are designed to burn unleaded fuel. I am just saying, I worry about the costs rising and am happy to see people exploring options!!! Thank you to the people doing the work it takes.
Full marks to Lockwood for bringing this to fruition, think its a shame VANS themselves didnt develop a Rotax engine nine wing based model with the c of g issues resolved though. The market would be a lot larger for a Vans model than this upgrade I think.
I like the approach used here where the ballistic parachute has been used to help with the reduced engine weight.
Would be like a baby Cirrus if Vans did something like that based on the nine
I like the approach used here where the ballistic parachute has been used to help with the reduced engine weight.
Would be like a baby Cirrus if Vans did something like that based on the nine
johnpaul44
Active Member
Anyone looked at the BSFC of the 916 is vs a o-320 or o-360? I ask because I'm wondering how a o-320 with a full efi system would perform against it
CaptPausert
Well Known Member
So I am doing a slow build and doing almost everything myself to keep the cost down. My build cost is going to be more like $150,000-160,000 not $180-200K if I had that kind of budget I would be building a 14 or that sling TSI that I test flew at least then you get 4 seats. It was only a couple of years ago that 180-200K was RV-10 money
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I'm glad to see aircraft designers like Vans look at Rotax and Deltahawk. I think this is the future of aircraft engines. Lycoming is trying with their iE2 but I don't think they will be able to catch up.
Having a few hours behind both Rotax and Lycoming engines I prefer Rotax hands down. No engine temp concerns, easy start, cheap gas, less engine vibration and no oil burn are a few of the things that cause this opinion. Maintenance has not been an issue as I have a great Rotax mechanic on the field. I spend a lot of time with them (we're neighbors) and have the benefit of seeing the airplanes that come in and out of their shop year after year. Incredibly rare to see Rotax have a bad cylinder or compression issues or the other problems that traditional aircraft engines have.
If there was a Rotax option for my RV10 I would have gone that route but so far that's not possible. I went with a Lycoming with EFII system and it's been good but I am also on the Deltahawk list and will swap it out once that becomes available.
The cost is absolutely something to consider but for me the extra cost was worth what I perceive as a better engine.
Having a few hours behind both Rotax and Lycoming engines I prefer Rotax hands down. No engine temp concerns, easy start, cheap gas, less engine vibration and no oil burn are a few of the things that cause this opinion. Maintenance has not been an issue as I have a great Rotax mechanic on the field. I spend a lot of time with them (we're neighbors) and have the benefit of seeing the airplanes that come in and out of their shop year after year. Incredibly rare to see Rotax have a bad cylinder or compression issues or the other problems that traditional aircraft engines have.
If there was a Rotax option for my RV10 I would have gone that route but so far that's not possible. I went with a Lycoming with EFII system and it's been good but I am also on the Deltahawk list and will swap it out once that becomes available.
The cost is absolutely something to consider but for me the extra cost was worth what I perceive as a better engine.
I love to see Rotax winning people over 1 by 1. There is so much that is misunderstood or mis-assumed regarding the engines, and it's only going to get better as people become more and more familiar. IMO, Rotax may not provide the cheapest (or a few other single metrics) option, but they embody the spirit of 'total performance'.
That said, I'm not a brand jingo. I can't wait to spend a week in PA next month learning more about Lycoming.
Now...anyone know of steam gauge timed out RV-9 that needs a new caretaker?
There is a guy who gives EAA webinar who is also a Rotax certified tech. He said Rotax can easily go over 4000 hours. This isn't a surprise since the said pilot flew his airplane regularly. I think Mike Busch also said the same thing that Lycoming will last way past TBO if we fly our airplane regularly. My hangar neighbor had to replace 5 cylinders on his Bonanza. He flew his for less than 20 hours last year. When doing oil analysis, it came back with metals from sitting too long.
hgerhardt
Well Known Member
That iE2 540 has been around for at least 15 years now. One of its features is that it has a knock sensor on each cylinder which would be ideal for running car gas. Other than being obscenely expensive, I’m disappointed they never spread any of that engine’s tech to their other models.
I'm patiently awaiting an announcement of the true cost of the Rotax package. I've got a bare firewall and a new Titan setting in the crate ready to go on this winter, but if Lockwood comes through and does start selling kits in December, I will be seriously tempted to jump to the Rotax (although I still want to see confirmation that Van's has signed off on the higher speeds). It all depends on the cost. I have a feeling the math won't work and I'll just continue with my current engine, but we'll see.
I just heard back from Lockwood regarding pricing of the 916iS package:
The RV9A 916iS FWF package is currently priced at $99,995. This includes the engine (comes with a Bose A30 headset and the Rotax Care 5 yr/2000 hour warranty), cowl, mounts, intercooler, radiator, oil cooler, MT prop and spinner. Everything, just as it states, from the firewall-forward. We will also be making an instrument package (one Dynon and one Garmin) as a separate item, but that's still in development. We've started a site, RV916.com, and will be updating to that.
On another note, we're doing a performance video shoot out in Telluride in September and that will be uploaded as well.
I think this is going to be a fantastic setup, and I would love the high altitude performance, but unfortunately that price delta is just a bit too much for me considering what I bought a new Titan IO-340 for (and the fact that I already paid for a cowling and engine mount with the finish kit I have). Maybe on the next build....
The RV9A 916iS FWF package is currently priced at $99,995. This includes the engine (comes with a Bose A30 headset and the Rotax Care 5 yr/2000 hour warranty), cowl, mounts, intercooler, radiator, oil cooler, MT prop and spinner. Everything, just as it states, from the firewall-forward. We will also be making an instrument package (one Dynon and one Garmin) as a separate item, but that's still in development. We've started a site, RV916.com, and will be updating to that.
On another note, we're doing a performance video shoot out in Telluride in September and that will be uploaded as well.
I think this is going to be a fantastic setup, and I would love the high altitude performance, but unfortunately that price delta is just a bit too much for me considering what I bought a new Titan IO-340 for (and the fact that I already paid for a cowling and engine mount with the finish kit I have). Maybe on the next build....
