In case I missed it... Do the folks here that fly over water regularlarly also wear a "Mae West" while flying? If so, what is a good one? I fly over Minnesota, "Land of 10,000 Lakes", I've been thinking of buying one.
If I had to make a forced landing in water or into the trees, I want all the air bags possible around me. A life jacket may only offer a small amount of protection, but a small amount is better than none.
This would be a much better solution, as they would deflate after they were deployed, and they wouldn't be attached to your body while you were trying to get out.I know they make airbag seat belts for planes and that may be a good solution.
I work with the Air belts installed in some airline seats, . . . I'm not sure if there any G/A applications out there, but I bet there will be soon.
In a water landing, the *last* thing you want is a life-jacket-sized air pocket strapped to your body. When the aircraft fills with water, that air pocket will pin you to the highest point in the fuselage. That could be the footwell, the baggage compartment, or the tail cone. You will *not* get out.
Use your jacket or a sweater for padding around your head if needed... But not air.
This would be a much better solution, as they would deflate after they were deployed, and they wouldn't be attached to your body while you were trying to get out.
pancake it in! i heard about this technique from an old timer years ago. never tried it, never heard of anyone else even talk about it, so here it is.
approach full flaps and as low as possible, at the last moment pull back and stall the plane. you will gain a bit of altitude and slow to minimum speed before pancaking it in.
a quick prayer to your favorite god or goddess is not a bad idea either.
Definition of PANCAKE LANDING
: a landing in which the airplane is stalled usually unintentionally above the landing surface causing it to drop abruptly in an approximately horizontal position with little forward motion.
Why wouldn't you land on the hard packed wet sand at the waterline on shore?
I see you are from the east coast. Out here (west) there are many places, like Catalina, where it goes straight from water to big rocks. But if there is a nice beach, without people, then it's an easy choice.
I suspect the tendency to flip over might be even worse on sand (unless it's really hard-packed, and I mean *hard* packed), wouldn't it?
I would think that the risk of a beach landing is also significant: soft sand would likely cause a flip-over; spotting a human or big rock on the beach at the last minute and diverting to the off-shore water would be dangerous if it causes flipping over in shallow water (and canopy resting on the ocean floor, unable to be opened). Hmmm...
I see you are from the east coast. Out here (west) there are many places, like Catalina, where it goes straight from water to big rocks. But if there is a nice beach, without people, then it's an easy choice.
I would think that the risk of a beach landing is also significant: soft sand would likely cause a flip-over; spotting a human or big rock on the beach at the last minute and diverting to the off-shore water would be dangerous if it causes flipping over in shallow water (and canopy resting on the ocean floor, unable to be opened). Hmmm...
I remember row upon row of cars and trucks parked on the hard pack of the beach. And there were always muscle cars driving up and down the beach.
I would think that if the hard pack coudl handle that, it might handle an airplane haplf the weight.
How can you tell from the air whether the sand is hard packed like concrete or soft and fluffy like quicksand?Why wouldn't you land on the hard packed wet sand at the waterline on shore?
On the hard-pack, true. That's why I said "soft" sand being the flip-over risk. The really soft stuff is just west of the hard-pack, and at high tide, there isn't a lot of hard-pack available.
How can you tell from the air whether the sand is hard packed like concrete or soft and fluffy like quicksand?
Unless you have prior knowledge of that particular beach, you really can't. If you're guaranteed to tip over anyway, you might be better off in water deep enough to swim out of it before or as it's sinking.
Or the mostly always dry stuff above the tidal region. Yes, I agree. Some may not be aware, or have thought about, the difference however. Near me is a beach where people regularly fly in and land during the summer (remote island, with no resident population, so beachgoers are rare).[/quote]I've lived on the ocean most of my life and I have to say I never found the hard pack left by a receding tide to be like quicksand. Or soft and fluffy. Different deal regarding the sand that's always underwater - there yes your feet sink into it as you stand there and the waves come by.
Factoring that in, i'd risk myself with a water landing before risking *any* beachgoers. I'd even try and make sure i'm far enough out to avoid swimmers, which will be even harder to see.Look at this article - Miami beach. people were killed but not the pilot/pax. Crowded beach.
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or this article - again a beachgoer was killed, so you have to factor that in of course.
Where I fly often the only two choices are water or trees. I have thought this through, and for me when the choice is water or trees I'll take the trees every time. The thought of flipping upside down in shallow water is not pleasant. Even in deep water the canopy may not be able to be opened. Of course my thinking may be somewhat biased by the fact I am a lousy swimmer, and would be even a worse swimmer if I were injured!
My ditching procedure (or some variation)
1. turn 90 degrees to waves
2. tighten seat belts
3. starting cutting...yes I carry this tool in my airplane when over water, swamp or mountainous terraign
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Ah----"You're" the guy where I got this idea from 1 1/2 years ago. I put one in my 8 too. I always get strange looks and questions, but I'm sticking to it. (The original thread was about some poor guy who put his, I think it was a 6, in the marshy grasses near Martha's Vineyard, flipped, was in a couple of feet of water and drowned---he apparently thought he was landing on dry land).
I bought it at HD, and was able to cut a solid steel bar, (about an 1 1/2" wide--like a ruler, and maybe 3/16's inches thick,) in half in 90 seconds. Twice, with the same blade. One wag, here on VAF, said, one should be able to cut an RV 8 in half faster than that.
Anyone remember that oxygen thingy that James Bond wore in one of the 007 movies? Its very small, you clamp it with your teeth, and it gives you about 90 seconds of O2? Do those really exist? If so, where would one get it? Over water, "wear" the life preserver, have one of those PLB's, have a small life raft, and if they exist, one of these O2 gizmo's. Whether to try and clamp it in your teeth before hitting the water, or having it in something foolproof close to your mouth, I have no idea.
I still think with the tip up that if I release the locks at the back and pull the pin at the front, it'll depart the aircraft PDQ when we hit the water and come to a quick stop. Yes, the cockpit will fill up faster, but the canopy will at least be out of the way. I'd still target being farther off-shore, as i'm a strong swimmer and want no chance of being trapped under the plane. I'll take my chances with the cold water.
Ditto on never wanting to test this.
I like it! Build a water landing simulator/dunk tank, set up at Oshkosh or Sun-n-Fun. Charge $25 a ride, and time people to see how long it takes to get out.Has anyone one got a fuselage that they could donate for a practice water egress?
Tim
A much more important consideration is the damping effect all the water pushing on the outside of the canopy will have. I wouldn't expect hitting it with a breaker bar to do much.Upside down in the water in a RV4, your feet dry and water coming in around your head, hoping you can hold your breath long enough so there is enough water in the cabin so you can open the canopy and hopefully slide out if you're not hung up.
Trying to get a good swing to break the canopy with anything in that position would not be easy.
I have considered this, but even flying sans-helmet I would take that chance. I expect that the wheels would bring the plane to a pretty quick stop, and the speed will bleed rapidly as the nose submarines into the water. It'll be disorienting, but i'd rather be disoriented and be able to egress, than trapped under a bubble I can't open.rvbuilder2002 said:When much younger, I used to barefoot water ski.
I was slapped silly and severely disoriented numerous times with impacts on water of only about 40 MPH.
.....what you think?
I did not get a chance to read all comments but here is mine.
I cross from KEYW to Mexico and Central America quite a lot and when I do on a fixed gear, I go knowing the aircraft can flip upon e-landing over water.
I do most of my flying wearing a Parachute or having one on board.
When over water I always fly wearing a Life Vest, have a 4 man raft, E-Pack and Small Ascend Scuba Tank.The PBELT always w me at all times together w Phone, passport and cash inside ZIPLOCK bag .
Depending on what aircraft I am flying, I can jettison the door and jump off not before making sure my PBELT, raft and epack come out w me. Open the parachute at wait for rescue. If Im flying my aerobatic aircraft, this last actions are limited and if I jump off the aircraft I will have to wait floating just w my life vest and PBELT until..........I like having my Raft while waiting for rescue since I dont like marine life swimming around me. Specially when there's a good chance blood will be present.
If I decide to ditch, what are my choices?..besides communicating to last ATC, broadcast on 121.5 and turn your PBELT ON, one is to fly the aircraft for as long in the direction to the nearest Boat, land, etc. and let the aircraft stall about 20 ft AWL (not AGL). Just let it pancake into the water eliminating as much forward movement as I can while trying most importantly prevent the aircraft to flip.
If I dont flip, egress normal and wait for rescue....
If I flip, questions are: Do I want the canopy latched or unlatched? Since I have a mechanical jettison, most likely I will choose to land with the canopy latched since it will give me additional buoyancy time to get Unstrapped and get my emergency Scuba tank in my mouth (good for 5 minutes under water)
All great in theory......what you think?
As someone who in a past life had a lot of experience walking their wheels on water for fun and games I would plant my wheels on the around a 100mph and start easing back on the stick as my speed bleed off then a tail low at last second and hope for the best.If you fly over the water often you might want to practice up beforehand.
Bob
As someone who in a past life had a lot of experience walking their wheels on water for fun and games I would plant my wheels on the around a 100mph and start easing back on the stick as my speed bleed off then a tail low at last second and hope for the best.If you fly over the water often you might want to practice up beforehand.
Bob
scuba shop. This is it. http://www.spareair.com/ 57 breaths = 5 minutes if you can control anxiety that is....