flybrianfly
I'm New Here
I just wanted to present a data point as a prospective Vans customer.
I attended AirVenture 2022 for a few days - I had been interested in the Rans S-21 and also had some business meetings nearby during the same week. At AirVenture, I got to climb around and sit in the S-21 and also met and chatted with Randy a bunch. Of course the RV-15 was also at the show and I was very impressed by the engineering prototype and the presentation given by Vans about the design, development, and flight testing. I decided to hold off on purchasing the S-21 and see what happens to the RV-15.
I attended AirVenture again in 2023 and if Vans had been taking deposits on the RV-15, I would have put down a deposit to secure my place in line. I had my checkbook in hand when I visited the booth.
I had not been following the primer or LCP issues, but read extensively about them after the October announcement. To say I've been disappointed about how Vans has been handling the bankruptcy would be an understatement. I don't like how the company was using deposits to pay current operational expenses, I don't like how the primer and LCP issues were handled, and a lot of my trust in the company has been eroded. Van as the DIP lender is also a weird scenario - I'm glad that the company isn't being sold overseas, but I feel for everyone that has current deposits in the company and is now being forced to pay sometimes significant price increases or risk losing their deposits.
As an engineer and small business owner, I have to balance keeping profits in a rainy day fund, dispersing profits to employees / shareholders, and reinvesting in future growth. It's tough. I did think the recent interview of Rans, Sonex, and Zenith on the Experimental Aircraft Channel had an interesting discussion about growth and "right-sizing" companies.
I understand that the RV-15 is still under development; although, I would expect the timelines to be pushed out and would be surprised if it's available to order at AirVenture 2024. The larger issue for me is being able to trust Vans as a company that I would want to work with. I think using a separate account for customer deposits is a step in the right direction, but I would want to see stronger protections for money held in that account. I would also like to see a firm timeframe from when a customer's order moves to "Production Commencement" to when it ships. As announced by Vans, the "Notice of Production Commencement" is when money moves into the operational account. It would be reasonable to me to not start production until parts are on hand to fulfill the kit and, for SB kits, I would expect timelines to not extend beyond 3 months between production commencement and crating / shipping. I would certainly not be happy with timelines extending beyond 6 months or longer. In that case, what's the difference from the old system?
As for me, I spoke with Rans about the S-21 in mid December and was told they could get me the full kit sometime in February. I placed the order and was just updated that it will likely be more like late January that the kit will be finished. I'm excited to start building. I also hope Vans survives, grows into a stronger company, and doesn't price me out of future kits. I'll certainly be looking at Vans for future builds.
I attended AirVenture 2022 for a few days - I had been interested in the Rans S-21 and also had some business meetings nearby during the same week. At AirVenture, I got to climb around and sit in the S-21 and also met and chatted with Randy a bunch. Of course the RV-15 was also at the show and I was very impressed by the engineering prototype and the presentation given by Vans about the design, development, and flight testing. I decided to hold off on purchasing the S-21 and see what happens to the RV-15.
I attended AirVenture again in 2023 and if Vans had been taking deposits on the RV-15, I would have put down a deposit to secure my place in line. I had my checkbook in hand when I visited the booth.
I had not been following the primer or LCP issues, but read extensively about them after the October announcement. To say I've been disappointed about how Vans has been handling the bankruptcy would be an understatement. I don't like how the company was using deposits to pay current operational expenses, I don't like how the primer and LCP issues were handled, and a lot of my trust in the company has been eroded. Van as the DIP lender is also a weird scenario - I'm glad that the company isn't being sold overseas, but I feel for everyone that has current deposits in the company and is now being forced to pay sometimes significant price increases or risk losing their deposits.
As an engineer and small business owner, I have to balance keeping profits in a rainy day fund, dispersing profits to employees / shareholders, and reinvesting in future growth. It's tough. I did think the recent interview of Rans, Sonex, and Zenith on the Experimental Aircraft Channel had an interesting discussion about growth and "right-sizing" companies.
I understand that the RV-15 is still under development; although, I would expect the timelines to be pushed out and would be surprised if it's available to order at AirVenture 2024. The larger issue for me is being able to trust Vans as a company that I would want to work with. I think using a separate account for customer deposits is a step in the right direction, but I would want to see stronger protections for money held in that account. I would also like to see a firm timeframe from when a customer's order moves to "Production Commencement" to when it ships. As announced by Vans, the "Notice of Production Commencement" is when money moves into the operational account. It would be reasonable to me to not start production until parts are on hand to fulfill the kit and, for SB kits, I would expect timelines to not extend beyond 3 months between production commencement and crating / shipping. I would certainly not be happy with timelines extending beyond 6 months or longer. In that case, what's the difference from the old system?
As for me, I spoke with Rans about the S-21 in mid December and was told they could get me the full kit sometime in February. I placed the order and was just updated that it will likely be more like late January that the kit will be finished. I'm excited to start building. I also hope Vans survives, grows into a stronger company, and doesn't price me out of future kits. I'll certainly be looking at Vans for future builds.
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