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Completed RV-7 Prices

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RadMan

I'm New Here
Hello all,
I am a RV owner wanna be right now. After much research, I have narrowed down my search for a new airplane to an RV. I had my first flight in a RV-6a, and got an up-close look at a RV-7 this past weekend. Since I am still very ignorant about RV's, I was hoping that I can get an answer to this question. Why are RV-7's so much more expensive to purchase when completed than an RV-6? From what I have re-searched, the only major price difference when building is the actual kit price. I have been told by 2 RV builders that the RV-7 is a more straight forward build than the RV-6, making it less labor intensive. With that in mind, shouldn't the finished price of an RV-7 be about the same as a finished RV-6? Of course we are assuming the same workmanship and instrumentation. I have just noticed that finished RV-7 costs on average about 30K more than an finished RV-6. Is it because an RV-7 is more desirable?

Craig
 
Craig:

Self-jigging, matched hole construction makes for kits that can be built more closely to the spec than would otherwise be possible by a varied bunch of ham-handed amatures (I proudly include myself in this group). A population of aircraft exhibiting more consistent replication of a proven design will yield higher prices than will one with less consistency (I'm talking as a whole here, I'm sure there are specific builds that would counter this contention). People may have greater confidence in the construction of the group as a whole.

Jekyll
 
I noticed the same thing when I was shopping and attributed it to a "newer is better" mentality, which may or may not be well founded. Since my budget was limited, I went with a -6 and have been quite happy with it. I have no idea whether or not a 7 would have been "better," although it would have come with some of the newer parts that I now find myself upgrading the -6 with, such as the more aerodynamic wheel pants, leg and intersection fairings, etc.
 
Differences

The RV-7 has a higher gross weight, higher Vne, 2 more feet of wing, option for larger engine.

John
 
Yukon said:
The RV-7 has a higher gross weight, higher Vne, 2 more feet of wing, option for larger engine.

John
Click to expand...

More fuel capacity, more leg room (per Van's engineers)...
 
Beefier tail

The tail skins are thicker, and the tail is larger (like the 8) which lets it accomodate up to 200 HP. Also, I have an -A model and the gear is longer making it sit taller, giving it a more stately look. The wing spar is different. Overall, there are several differences. I love mine!
 
Are the panels comparable? I'd guess that since the -7's are newer, they might have newer avionics.

Also, the -7 has the option of using a 200hp engine.
 
All of you have some good points of why the 7 is better than the 6. However, even though the 7 has all these better features that you have mentioned, it still is less labor intensive than a 6 (what I have been told by 2 rv builders), and only a few thousand more expensive than a 6 to build. I have my own bussiness, and I charge according to what materials cost and the labor involved. If one job has more expensive materials, but is less labor intensive, I charge the same amount if the materials cost less, but labor is more intensive. That's just my point of view. I guess I'll be focusing on purchasing a 6. There aren't very many 7's for sale. The 7's must be the cat's meow since noone really wants to part with them.

Rad
 
Rat Man,

Of course you miss that the margin on materials/labor that you charge will be dictated by the market. In addition, the value of the labor is influenced by the quality of the product.

My guess is that because the newer kits are more likely to be built straight and true, and with similarly high quality, they are worth more to the market. Really nice 6's still go for pretty good money, but the very best do not seem to hit the market.

But I bet the other big factor in these prices reflects the "new" style of homebuilding.

Most of the original builders I meet, with 6's built light and simple aircraft. Today the norm seems to include an autopilot, constant speed prop, luxurious interiors, etc... This additional "content" will also be reflected in the price. Since many buyers are not builders, they will pay for rv's that look most like the Mooney, or Cesspot that they might otherwise purchase.
 
RadMan said:
All of you have some good points of why the 7 is better than the 6. However, even though the 7 has all these better features that you have mentioned, it still is less labor intensive than a 6 (what I have been told by 2 rv builders), and only a few thousand more expensive than a 6 to build. I have my own bussiness, and I charge according to what materials cost and the labor involved. If one job has more expensive materials, but is less labor intensive, I charge the same amount if the materials cost less, but labor is more intensive. That's just my point of view. I guess I'll be focusing on purchasing a 6. There aren't very many 7's for sale. The 7's must be the cat's meow since noone really wants to part with them.

Rad
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Ah, you're trying to compare this with a business model. Well, toss out the cost for labor cause it wouldn't be the same from builder to builder either in time, quantity or quality. Sure, most builders (myself included) do a good job and better than a certified plane but don't compare to someone that is really talented. All of the RVs I've seen are beautiful but some are truly works of art, when you learn what to look for then see one of these extraordinary aircraft it's truly awe inspiring. Now, what's the Mona Lisa worth when hanging next to your kids college art class, both have the same amount of labor and materials invested.

Next, the -7 is newer and will command a higher price. Yes you could get a better built -6 for less money but in general the -7 will be perceived as being worth more simply because it's newer. I don't think the -7 is better than the -6. You would have to park two of them side by side to really compare them. Because they are built by individuals and not a factory I know there are better built -6's out there than some of the -7's. However, some would say in general the -7 would or could be built better/straighter by the average builder because of the matched holed technology Van put into the -7. Problem with that thought is if someone built any RV and then built a second, the second would be a better plane. You have to compare individual builders and their planes, it doesn't work to compare them like you would a 172 to another 172.

Lastly, if there aren't as many available well, you already know what that means.

Now if you want a cheaper RV you'll have to invest the sweat equity into it other than that, it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it. From what I've seen people are willing to pay pretty well but not very much more than what the cost of the pieces cost. At first glance you see a kit from Vans cost 15-25 grand and then notice one for sale in Trade -A- plane for 100K. Well there's a lot of blood, sweat and tears not to mention wire, lights, autopilots, interiors, paint, engine, avionics that go into the kit on it's way from Vans to Trade -A- Plane. Add to that most buyers don't have a clue as to the time, dedication and sheer will it takes to build an airplane and in the end they are quite a bargain!

Airplanes, especially personal airplanes can be an emotional sale/purchase. This too will affect price just like motorcycles and boats. It's not nearly as simple as the cost of materials + the cost of labor. Nope, my RV is worth a lot more than that.
 
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Logic doesn't apply

If logic applied, the 6 would be worth more, all else being equal. It has a much stronger wing design, with a spar that carries all the way through the cabin. Most of them have O-320's, which haven't been included in all the crank-related AD's. Also, for some reason, there have been far fewer nosegear problems on the 6A. I think in general it's just a stronger airframe.

Here's something else to consider. The first year I flew my six, I could get insurance on it from anyone, even as a low-timer. Two years later, with more than twice as much time and all of it in my RV, Nationair informed me that my rates were going up -- in a year when overall GA accident rates hit an all-time low. They said the underwriter was no longer insuring RV's due to the high casualty rate, so they had to find another one. In over 15 years production, the RV6A had earned such a good reputation that it was actually cheaper to insure than my '73 Cherokee. Now, the underwriter with the most experience with RV's doesn't even want to insure them? What changed?
 
Straight 6A

You're absolutely correct, Jon. My 6A was a quickbuild and I'll gladly put it next to anyone's 7. So much has to do with the builder's obsession over details and what is/isn't acceptable workmanship. All our rivets show with only a few in front of the windshield hidden. As far as labor???????? you'll never recoup that but then again, that's not why we build, is it? ;)
 
RV6

I just bought a flying RV6 this month and fell in love with aviation again. This is my fourth and last plane I will own, now that I have found the best. The price of an RV7 if you can find one is about $30K more, but in my view not worth the extra money. My RV6 in the mid $70's with 0-360 and c/s prop and a quick build kit was the perfect combo. Supply and demand have the RV6 market at a good value while the RV7 is just too new. The improvements were minor and the look and design of the RV6 to me was better. Good luck!
 
RatMan said:
Sure, most builders (myself included) do a good job and better than a certified plane.
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I'm sorry but although often said, the above comment contains not an ounze of truth. In fact very very few RVs are of certificated quality. If you look at the EAAA Airventure judging guidelines you will find that homebuilt planes are rated from 1 to 10. "Average" quality is actually 4 ("Generally meets the aeronautical standards with some inconsistencies. Slightly under or overbuilt in some areas. Little finesse or detail").

Only planes rated a 9 or 10 (very rare) are considered to be "equal or better than a factory new aircraft".

A 9 means ("Outstanding workmanship. Exceptional attention to detail").
A 10 means ("Flawless in all respects").

A 9 or 10 is a major award winner. And there are not too many of those around.

The truth is that the "average" RV is quite roughly built, usually by a builder without previously acquired skills. Building an RV to certificated standards takes many thousands of hours of meticulous workmanship and most builders simply do not have the trade skills or patience (or capacity to study and learn correct aviation procedures) to achieve this.

To highlight the point just take a look at what passes for priming on most RVs, including the Vans QBs. Then take a look at the current Cessna and Piper specs (degrease, phosphoric acid etch, alodine, and Boeing spec BMS10-11 two pack strontium chromate epoxy primer on all surfaces, including all skins). Need I say more.

If in doubt you may refer to the EAAA judging guidelines:

http://www.eaa.org/judging/
 
Bob Barrow said:
To highlight the point just take a look at what passes for priming on most RVs, including the Vans QBs. Then take a look at the current Cessna and Piper specs (degrease, phosphoric acid etch, alodine, and Boeing spec BMS10-11 two pack strontium chromate epoxy primer on all surfaces, including all skins).
Click to expand...

And then take a look at the puckering around the rivets of my hangar mate's spankin' new 172SP. Really rough.
 
I new to this game Bob, and I'm learning. I'm only a year and a half into my-8 and only just about to flip the fuse. The -8 is only my second airplane and the first one was all tube and fabric so I have a lot to learn.

Bob Barrow said:
I'm sorry but although often said, the above comment contains not an ounze of truth. In fact very very few RVs are of certificated quality. If you look at the EAAA Airventure judging guidelines you will find that homebuilt planes are rated from 1 to 10. "Average" quality is actually 4 ("Generally meets the aeronautical standards with some inconsistencies. Slightly under or overbuilt in some areas. Little finesse or detail").
Click to expand...

I guess I've just been lucky. Now I haven't seen thousands of RVs only several hundred at Osh and Sun-N-Fun and a few local shows. On the days I've seen those RVs I guess the guys with the crappy ones decided to stay at home. The ones I have seen were built from kits that were purchased from Vans and I wouldn't say any were under-built at all. Maybe Van does design in a bit more strength than is necessary but is that a negative? I'm not an engineer, I have only heard the A&P's on my field and other pilots (all with decades of experience) comment that my kit sure is built strong. I haven't added a thing to my -8, it's being built by the book just as Van's sent it. They are comparing it to the certified airplanes they have seen and worked on.

Bob Barrow said:
Only planes rated a 9 or 10 (very rare) are considered to be "equal or better than a factory new aircraft".
A 9 means ("Outstanding workmanship. Exceptional attention to detail").
A 10 means ("Flawless in all respects").
Click to expand...

I guess in this respect I've been unlucky. If the standard is a 9 or 10 when it comes to factory new then I haven't seen a "flawless in all respects" airplane of any sorts that came from a factory. Actually, if a builder were honest I don't think any plane is "flawless".

Bob Barrow said:
A 9 or 10 is a major award winner. And there are not too many of those around.
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Given that you consider a 9 or 10 to be equal to a factory built airplane, then all of the Cessna's, Pipers, etc should be major award winning quality? Wow, can you imagine, you've put in the time, money and skill to build an airplane, fly it to Osh and win! Holy cow, you've just won at Osh and a guy walks up and says congrats, you've just built a plane that's as good as my 152. What an eye-opener! I thought it really meant something to win at Osh, not to mention what it says for those that didn't even place. I hope they all made it home safely!

Bob Barrow said:
The truth is that the "average" RV is quite roughly built, usually by a builder without previously acquired skills. Building an RV to certificated standards takes many thousands of hours of meticulous workmanship and most builders simply do not have the trade skills or patience (or capacity to study and learn correct aviation procedures) to achieve this.
Click to expand...

The average RV is "quite roughly built"? O.K. fair enough, from the few builders that I have talked to they didn't have any special skill before building. But I certainly wouldn't say any that have actually completed any major portion of an airplane didn't have the capacity to study or learn. Actually I would say that they certainly DO have a capacity to learn. They learned to study a manual, read drawings, take pieces of metal and turn them into flying machines. That's gotta count for something. I just gotta ask Bob, and I'm not throwing stones 'cause I'm far from an award winning builder, is your RV "average"?

Bob Barrow said:
To highlight the point just take a look at what passes for priming on most RVs, including the Vans QBs. Then take a look at the current Cessna and Piper specs (degrease, phosphoric acid etch, alodine, and Boeing spec BMS10-11 two pack strontium chromate epoxy primer on all surfaces, including all skins). Need I say more.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to debate primers, just because the government has decided this is what Cessna should do to meet a standard doesn't mean what any good paint shop does isn't better than that gov't standard. It's a matter of opinion.

I will admit I haven't read the EAA guidelines for judging aircraft but I will. If what you are saying is an Osh winner is considered by EAA standards to be just as good as any average Cessna that rolls off the line well, I'm a bit disappointed. I guess I am a bit naive 'cause I thought the standard would have been a lot higher than that. All I've had to go on was my untrained eye so far. I've been very lucky and I guess my standards are too high because if you were to park a nice RV next to any new Cessna, I would probably give the edge to the RV. But then again I would give a few extra points knowing the love and passion put into the RV that simply isn't there in the Cessna. I know that is skewed but still, that's just me. I also realize that a number of Osh winners were not built by the owners at all but by hired guns that have the skill to build a winner. That too is disappointing and in my opinion takes away from the awards.

So if there isn't an ounce of truth in what I say, I'll yield to you. I guess my standards aren't high enough but from what I have seen and the builders I meet, they sure do have some purdy airplanes.
 
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I'm not going to debate primers, just because the government has decided this is what Cessna should do to meet a standard doesn't mean what any good paint shop does isn't better than that gov't standard. It's a matter of opinion.


Not sure it is a matter of opinion.

The decision to prime or not prime may be a builder decision, but there is no doubt that primers which meet government specifications, often Mil Spec's, are superior to those that do not, when it comes to corrosion protection.

For example, the MIL-P-23377 primers must meet rigid standards for application, peel, and ability to resist corrosion, even when disturbed by a scribe mark, for many hundreds of hours in salt spray, fluid imersion, etc.

Others may or may not be able to meet the spec, but knowing is worth something.

"Any Decent Paint Shop" may or may not be woried about the corrosion and other factors necessary to an airplane.

P.S. I would like to point out that Mr. Barrow os probably one of the most credible people who post here, when it comes to aircraft construction.
 
Jconard said:
[P.S. I would like to point out that Mr. Barrow os probably one of the most credible people who post here, when it comes to aircraft construction.
Click to expand...

Although I haven't ever met Bob nor do I know of his background, I don't think I called Mr Barrows credibility into question, quite the contrary. If you feel that I did, I apologize. If you feel that he is more credible than I (although you don't know me either) that's O.K. too. Actually he called my credibility into question by stating that my point contained not an ounce of truth. (A polite way of calling me a liar ;) Doug likes it when we are polite.) He then pointed out that the average RV is quite roughly built. If he has found this to be true, so be it. I'm OK with that. It's just not what I have observed. I readily admit that I am not an award winning builder, I'm an amature builder. Still, that doesn't take away from the truly beautiful RVs that I have seen. I guess I've just seen the best there is out there which would make my statement true. I really don't mean to lie to anyone and if he knows better than I, I yield to him.

You took what I said about primers out of context. Just because Cessna uses a specific method and procedure doesn't necessarily mean a paint shop (or builder for that matter) couldn't do just as good or better, which of course is a matter of opinion. I didn't mention anything about what type of primer is better than another. I actually feel to imply that a Cessna is built better that an average RV based on what type of primer is under the paint is a bit unfair as well. But like I said, that's my standards and I wouldn't force that on anyone else. I've seen RVs that weren't even painted or primed that I would say were better built than some certified airplanes. I know, that's just CrAzY :eek: but don't worry, I'm not a judge at Osh. I'm just a regular guy building a regular airplane, just so happens it's an RV too.
 
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Very nice, I have seen Bearhawks on the net before. Seems he probably does have a good idea of what a nicely built plane should look like and may very well be qualified to judge those planes. I'm not, I still think they're beautiful. If he really does think that the average RV is "quite roughly built" and that most builders "do not have capacity to study and learn". I concede, perhaps he is correct. I do have a capacity to learn. Maybe he has dealt with enough builders to develop that opinion.

Thank God I've not had the same experience with either the RVs I've seen nor the builders I've met. I have found them to be intelligent people with spirit and determination. He has obviously more experience than I in the home-building game however put simply, I just don't share such a dim view. It's just a difference of opinion, that's all.
 
Certificated?

Having owned a wonderful Cessna 182 for the last 10 years, and having been through 10 thorough annuals in that time, I can confirm that "certified" just doesn't carry any weight with me if we are speaking of quality of workmanship. There can't be more than two rivets on my 182 that are bucked to the same size...the fit of the aluminum sheets sucks, the wiring is loose inside the wings, there is no strength to the integrity of the control system, the doors don't fit the same, the windscreen is crooked, the vent system leaks, the fuel vents crossfeed, the fairings all fit badly (even when new)...yet it is most definitely a certificated airframe, and one which I've placed the safety of myself and my family in for 10 years. I'd submit to anyone that the workmanship of ALMOST every RV I've laid eyes on is superior to anything you'd find in my or any other Cessna.

Now, about the 6 being MUCH STRONGER than the 7...I think that's open for debate too, but we'll leave that for another thread...they are both fine airplanes. With 25 hrs in each, I'll take the 7...it's got a more "stable" feel to it, I'm not sure if it's the wingspan difference, the difference in the tail feathers, or the weight and balance, but it was definitely a pleasant surprise the first time I flew it...and noticeably different than the 6.

When you look at prices for homebuilt aircraft, I think you have to discount the labor factor...the prices are going to reflect the going rate for the kit, the avionic/engine/prop package and the general demand for the airplane. FWIW, I completed a spreadsheet on my 7A the other nite and it came to just under 95K for an IFR plane. If I were to sell it, I MIGHT get a little more than that, but not much. Selling this plane now would sure be a lot like putting my son up for sale...the WOW factor is still pretty high and I'd be selling it short to say I LOVE IT.
 
Newer

The RV-7 is likely to be newer.

It's more likely to have the newest flight inst (EFIS) avionics and autopilot.

The engine and prop likely to have less time, plus the other 100 correct comments previous.

Back in the day 150/160HP used engines and fixed prop was more common. Now many more RV's are built with new engine and 180HP, fuel injection and C/S props are becoming the status quo.

Bottom line RV-6 is a fine plane & What the market will bear. I have seen some very nice RV-6(A)'s.

(In fact right now there are two six'es for sale that look very nice for the price, one is on this site and the other I recall is on barnstormers or aerotrader. I was surprised at the price (reasonable) verses the picture and description. I notice several RV's have been reduced or not sold on eBay of late. So may be the price has peaked for the time being. For a while I was seeing some rough RV's at what I thought was way to high asking prices.)
 
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Captain Avgas said:
I'm sorry but although often said, the above comment contains not an ounze of truth. In fact very very few RVs are of certificated quality. If you look at the EAAA Airventure judging guidelines you will find that homebuilt planes are rated from 1 to 10. "Average" quality is actually 4 ("Generally meets the aeronautical standards with some inconsistencies. Slightly under or overbuilt in some areas. Little finesse or detail").

Only planes rated a 9 or 10 (very rare) are considered to be "equal or better than a factory new aircraft".

A 9 means ("Outstanding workmanship. Exceptional attention to detail").
A 10 means ("Flawless in all respects").

A 9 or 10 is a major award winner. And there are not too many of those around.
:

http://www.eaa.org/judging/
Click to expand...

I am not sure what experience you have in EAA Judging but I worked with the Homebuilt Judging group for 7 years in programming support and worked on the line with many of the Judges over that time. I was also a Contemporary Judge for 2 years. The only reason I am not still working with them is that my wife has been too ill to make the trip for the last 2 years.

While the tree that you see in the standards book does say that it has to be equal or better than a factory new aircraft to receive a 9 or 10, I can tell you for a fact that most of the judges would rate the typical production aircraft as a 45 point aircraft (out of a possible 100). There is no comparison between an award winning aircraft quality/workmanship and a production aircraft and every year the bar keeps getting higher. That is the reason I didn't like being a Contemporary Judge, I was too tough on them after having worked with the Homebuilt Judges for several years.

Yes, there are many aircraft Judged at Oshkosh every year that are not show winners and there are even a few dogs on the line. But the typical RV that shows up at Oshkosh is far better in workmanship than what you get out of Cessna, Mooney, or even Beachcraft. More than half of the RVs that are judged are in contention for awards each year but not everyone can be Grand Champion. That does not mean they are not quality construction. Bring any production aircraft of your choice (that has not been completely rebuilt by an individual) and I can guarantee that the Judges at Oshkosh would pick it to pieces.

The difference between Grand Champion and Reserve is often as simple as too many/too few threads showing on the bolts, improperly installed cotter keys (not unsafe, just not correct), a slight mismatch in the cowl to spinner dimension, or too much paint (a metal aircraft is not supposed to look like a composite).

I am in the market for an RV right now and I would not purchase one without inspecting it as not everyone's skills are the same. On the other hand, it does not bother me to purchase a homebuilt RV because of the general quality that I have seen at Oshkosh.
 
Why are QBs generally better?

J5Cub said:
Yes, there are many aircraft Judged at Oshkosh every year that are not show winners and there are even a few dogs on the line. But the typical RV that shows up at Oshkosh is far better in workmanship than what you get out of Cessna, Mooney, or even Beachcraft.
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Let's think this through. If one thing has become apparent on this and other "RV Value" threads it's that Quick Builds are generally thought of as being fabricated to a higher standard than Slow Builds....and generally speaking that is true (not always but usually). In other words the RV hull that is built in Manila by a bunch of low paid third world workers is generally of much better quality than one built by the typical RV builder in his garage.

Why is that so. Well when you get around to building your 500th plane you probably get pretty good at it. Having all the right jigs and rivetting everything two up in a systemized factory production environment probably helps as well.

So we need to ask ourselves whether it is possible that for some hugely inexplicable reason the workers in the slums of Manila possess greater skills, technique and expertise than the average RV builder whereas the company in the United States that produces the Citation jet does not.

And is anybody really suggesting that the average RV built by a first up builder exhibits the detail, finish, and consistency of construction (to aviation best practice) as found on say the Cirrus and the Columbia.
 
Captain Avgas said:
And is anybody really suggesting that the average RV built by a first up builder exhibits the detail, finish, and consistency of construction (to aviation best practice) as found on say the Cirrus and the Columbia.
Click to expand...

The difference is, I have years to build it. :D
 
Worker motivation

Captain Avgas said:
So we need to ask ourselves whether it is possible that for some hugely inexplicable reason the workers in the slums of Manila possess greater skills, technique and expertise than the average RV builder whereas the company in the United States that produces the Citation jet does not.
Click to expand...
First, I think we are comparing the Cessna single engine piston aircraft to the RV, not the jets. I have not looked that closely at the jets, so I can't comment.

My guess is there could be a huge difference in motivation between someone in the slums of Manila and the suburbs of Independence. I don't know if you've ever been to places like the Philippines, but I can tell you that the people who work there are usually very happy to have a decent job, and they will do whatever they need to do to keep it. Not sure if Cessna workers feel that if they lose their job they will be scrounging on a giant trash heap to feed their family. Here are some pictures from the Bonanza factory before they moved: http://www.rv8.ch/gallery/v/bonanza/?g2_GALLERYSID=36f8db57fbd872a5fa0a9f917de41409 Also, as we all know, the basic skills of riveting and drilling holes can be learned very quickly. After that, it's all about motivation and attention to detail. In my experience I have not seen a correlation between these two factors and absolute salary. Also, management plays a huge role in the quality of the product. Good managers can be found in all parts of the world, and so unfortunately can bad managers.

In any case, I think your point is on target, pros can do a better job than homebuilders, since they are doing it all day long. I know the first rivet of a session is rarely my best. The question comes down to who will consistently do a better job?

I agree with previous posters that the RVs I have seen at OSH, SNF and other fly-ins around the world have almost all been of better quality than the production aircraft I have seen. I'm referring to metal aircraft, and I'm excluding the interiors. I don't really look at plastic experimentals, and I don't feel qualified to compare the interiors.
 
QB

Jamie said:
Hmm...aren't those pictures of RV-10 QB's?
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Could be - all those side by side airplanes look the same to me. :) I know at least one picture is an RV8.
 
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