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Can you hear me now?

bret

Well Known Member
No, not a phone commercial, but sheesh! Listen, look, and call your POSITION! Took the Sky Hawk out for a few laps around the track this morning, uncontrolled airport with lots of weekend traffic, I am calling out all legs and on the second lap, I am on the L. Down wind and at my 2 O clock high, I see an RV 4 overtaking me, 100 Ft From me! I don't think he saw me being under his wing. I never heard any thing from him until he called downwind abeam the numbers. He is based at this airport and later saw him on the ground. I did not say anything at the time, but now at home I think I should have. How do you approach and respectfully tell some one they almost could have killed us both?
 
How do you approach and respectfully tell some one they almost could have killed us both?

Respectfully---gosh that is a hard one.

I usually say something like "This is your lucky day" and when they ask what I am talking about, I say "You are lucky that I am a lot more observant than you are, otherwise you would have crashed into me".
 
I think what you say depends on how well you know, or don't know, your fellow airport tenant. However, I DO believe that you SHOULD discuss it with him. If he has a chance to learn something from your conversation, then it is a win-win....
 
No, not a phone commercial, but sheesh! Listen, look, and call your POSITION! Took the Sky Hawk out for a few laps around the track this morning, uncontrolled airport with lots of weekend traffic, I am calling out all legs and on the second lap, I am on the L. Down wind and at my 2 O clock high, I see an RV 4 overtaking me, 100 Ft From me! I don't think he saw me being under his wing. I never heard any thing from him until he called downwind abeam the numbers. He is based at this airport and later saw him on the ground. I did not say anything at the time, but now at home I think I should have. How do you approach and respectfully tell some one they almost could have killed us both?

That's why it takes each pilot to look out the window and see what's around. Your position was climbing on X wind leg, and turning downwind. You should have had an unobstructed view of the entire 45 entry pattern which is the standard entry.

But, if the 4 did an overhead, then you had little chance to see him.
 
That's why it takes each pilot to look out the window and see what's around. Your position was climbing on X wind leg, and turning downwind. You should have had an unobstructed view of the entire 45 entry pattern which is the standard entry.

But, if the 4 did an overhead, then you had little chance to see him.

OK, again, he overtook me on downwind, abeam the numbers. I was in a spam can, high wing, I would have never seen him over taking me from 5 O clock high to 2 O clock high. After landing, I saw his hanger open with his plane in front of it. He did not come in from a 45. It is like getting on the freeway, not me but I hear if you accelerate at max, and are passing peeps by the time you merge, you only have to look in front of you. So.... I need to get my 7 done!
 
Talk about it!

You should have asked if he saw you, if he heard you, and then decide where to go with it from there. He should not have passed you if either of the answers are yes to those questions, and he needs to know that. If the answers are no then it's time to figure out why. If his radio volume was turned down then he may not have heard you. On his next flight he might just run you over.
 
I so dislike being the slow poke, is there a study of speed is safe? I am so use to doing 190+ on the bike, 11 sec 1/4 mile car, but this is my life for now. I need my 7 flying!
 
Honestly you're just as guilty as the RV-4 driver. Airplanes don't need radios to fly and its everybody's duty to keep their eyes peeled. You weren't looking for him when you turned from the crosswind to the downwind, because if you did, you would have separated yourself. I fly out of a grass strip with several nordo airplanes often piloted by students, and if I were dependent on the radio for separation I'd be a smoking hole in the ground by now.
 
Honestly you're just as guilty as the RV-4 driver. Airplanes don't need radios to fly and its everybody's duty to keep their eyes peeled. You weren't looking for him when you turned from the crosswind to the downwind, because if you did, you would have separated yourself. I fly out of a grass strip with several nordo airplanes often piloted by students, and if I were dependent on the radio for separation I'd be a smoking hole in the ground by now.

Hi Bob! Hey thanks for chiming in, I respectfully agree and concure with everything you post on here, however...this is where it gets to, he said, she said.....I hear you, if I was looking...I am a serious swivel head! Fly with the asumption that no one has a radio! Everyone can speculate that he came in from hear or there, but I think this pilot took off and passed me in his blind spot, I was hiding under his wing. I don't want to get into a court battle here, just want to bring awareness. I have seen several cases of high wing/low wing proximity problems......
 
Just my thing...any time I have seen another airplane too close for comfort I always blame myself for not looking hard enough. A friend of mine who is a retired airline guy and has owned several jets and P51s once told me "airplanes fly based on principles discovered by Bernoulli, not Marconi."...words I live by flying.
 
Bret, Finish the 7A...... The thing that you will notice during your first flight is that you will have an amazing view (even better if it is a tilt up). It (the view) might even scare you at first. From then on, you will be disappointed with the 172.
 
Bob, I totally agree, we as instructors see many good pilots radioing their position and not really looking. Learn how to scan properly, this is a big issue on BFR's, at uncontrolled airports. Coming in a close second to stabilized approaches.
Jack
 
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Really listen - and look

Took the club's supercub to a nearby French airfield and started listening about 10 miles out to see which runway was in use. Heard an English guy on the radio - which is pretty rare around here.

Golf-mumble-something-mumble-something - downwind 05 for mumble.
Golf-mumble-something-mumble-something - something 05 - mumble.
Golf-mumble-something-mumble-something - final 05 - mumble.

Made my call, and let him know that I had him in sight. Joined downwind at a 45 and then saw him land.

Golf-mumble-something-mumble-something - downwind 05 - mumble.

Huh? I'm on downwind for 05. What's this guy talking about?

Seems it was a pair of English aircraft, traveling together, and I stupidly assumed that there was only one. They sounded the same on the radio. Seems I cut off the second aircraft when I joined downwind - didn't see him at all, and neither did my GIB. Embarrassing. Yes, I bought beverages after apologizing profusely.
 
Honestly you're just as guilty as the RV-4 driver. Airplanes don't need radios to fly and its everybody's duty to keep their eyes peeled. You weren't looking for him when you turned from the crosswind to the downwind, because if you did, you would have separated yourself. I fly out of a grass strip with several nordo airplanes often piloted by students, and if I were dependent on the radio for separation I'd be a smoking hole in the ground by now.

The fly in the ointment of your reasoning . . . . if the RV-4 were going fast enough to overtake the chicken hawk on downwind, there is a real possibility that the RV was too far away to be seen by the 172. Distance, in-flight visibility, angles, & airplane related blind spots all take their toll.

The pilot is always 100% responsible to see and avoid, yet there are many accidents where the probable cause was the "failure to see and avoid" yet the dynamics of the situation made seeing the other airplane physically impossible.
 
Interesting flying today....

It was a nice morning, light winds, puffy clouds with bases about 2,000?, tanks half full, and a few hours to kill. Couldn?t be a better time for a leisurely flight in the RV-4.

I drove to 28J, did my preflight, pulled from my hangar, started and warmed the engine, then taxied and departed on 17.

I flew around just sightseeing, enjoying the clouds and the very still and very clear air. I did a couple of aileron rolls, trying for better coordination of the rudder and elevator to keep the nose as close as possible to the horizon. After about 40 minutes I recalled the recent thread on VAF about practicing engine out landings, and realized that I had not done that for some time. My usual approach is to reduce power to about 1,100 RPM in the downwind and stabilize at 80 MPH, and apply full flaps abeam the numbers. That gives me about a 600 FPM sink. Today I wanted to practice pulling power abeam the numbers, stabilizing at 80 MPH, and applying flaps once the runway was made.

To do this requires a pretty tight pattern. Downwind a 1,000? or so parallel the runway, base turn at 45? from the numbers, etc. Since when I left no one was around I figured the airport would be deserted like normal, and I would have no issues flying that practice routine.

By the time I got back to the airport there was a 140 flying 747 T&G?s. I swear she made a two mile final every circuit. I followed one time and decided to leave the pattern and return when she was gone. Why do so many pilots feel the need to fly such large patterns in such small aircraft?

I came back when I heard her call for a full stop. I got in the downwind behind a Skyranger that had dropped in behind her. He decided that he didn?t feel like flying her huge pattern and when she had just turned base asked if he could land first. She said OK then decided to do a right 360 on base, which meant that I needed to do a right 360 in the downwind. Why did the Skyranger pilot figure that it was acceptable for other aircraft in the pattern to make 360?s so he could land?

She?s made her full stop (after a missed approach and ANOTHER huge circuit). Now I?m now alone in the pattern, have made a couple of T&G?s, and on my departure for the next circuit I hear a SeaRey call 5 miles north, setting up for a 45? entry to left downwind runway 9, full stop. Perfect, in my mind just how such position reports and intentions should be made. I reported turning crosswind, extended my crosswind to accommodate him entering the downwind, set spacing and was happy.

As the SeaRey announces turning base, a call comes that a Cessna (I think) is on a 4 mile final! That was the first call from that plane that I heard. The SeaRey announced again that he is on base and the Cessna says ?I see you, I think I can get in before you.? He makes an approach so hot that he lands halfway down the runway. Why did that guy decide that he didn?t need to fly a standard pattern when there were two others flying one and making regular position calls (I announced departing, crosswind, downwind, base and final every leg).

A bit later I was on my final circuit, I have announced and stabilized on left downwind, when a Piper announces he is on downwind for 9!! I try to keep my head out of the cockpit and look for other traffic, but have not seen this guy. I again look all around, ready to apply full power and climb out of the pattern, when I look across the runway and see him on a RIGHT downwind turning base for 9. Again, no other broadcast before or after that call. I extend my downwind to give him time to land. He does and I see him pull off the runway to what I thought was going to be a back-taxi on 17, common at this airport to get to the pumps. I?m just flaring for my landing and he pulls back onto 9. I give it power and depart and fly about 100? over him. I radioed ?I don?t know what you?re doing back on the runway, buddy, but that wasn?t a very smart move when you know you had traffic behind you?? I made another circuit and landed and as I was taxing to my hangar he was at the pumps and gave a look like ?What the heck is your problem!!?

I figured discretion is the better part at this point so just hangared my plane and went to the FBO for a Coke. A group of pilots was standing outside and had been watching the goings on commented on the fiascos in the pattern. They said that it must have been interesting?.

There sure seemed to be enough chances for issues today at a smaller, relatively quite airport. And ALL of them could have been avoided by flying the pattern in use at the time, and using the radio properly.

I know I am far from perfect and can always learn something. Today I learned to extend my scan from just the normal pattern in use, to cover long finals by unannounced aircraft, and people flying opposite patterns.....
 
Bob, I totally agree, we as instructors see many good pilots radioing their position and not really looking.
Jack

How about doing this while on the ground?

Wednesday we're going into Cedar City, UT. I know my radios work because I'm talking with the King Air ahead of me. I call downwind, base, final. 5 seconds later I hear, "Twin Commander 123 taking the active, 20, Cedar City". I see him coming down the taxiway (evidently he's a turbine Commander, and has no intention of stoping for a runup or checklist). I call, "You do see me on short final, right?" He says, "Oh, uh, yea, we'll hold for you". It wasn't much of a hold, I was about 5 seconds away from the threshold. I was opposite the sun, strobes on, white airplane against a blue sky. He obviously just didn't look at all. Must have flipped on his radios, made his call, and he's ready to go....

Why is it that my runway "incidents" - except for one with a student - have been with twins and Bonanzas? Is it just my bad luck, or it something about the owners of these types of aircraft?
 
I know I am far from perfect and can always learn something. Today I learned to extend my scan from just the normal pattern in use, to cover long finals by unannounced aircraft, and people flying opposite patterns.....

I see this kind of stuff a fair bit at X35. On a nice day, it can be a bee hive. There are the RV types, the 150's, the cubs and the SR-20's from Who-knows-what-country via Sanford. I always call 10 miles out with intentions, then call downwind, etc. I love when the Cessna right in front decides to call a back taxi when I've called a short final right behind him. It's also fun to do 2 patterns for each of the 150 (aka 747) patterns. I fly a 150 at times. Who trains these guys? If they had an engine problem, there's only about 10% if their pattern that would make the runway. I fly my pattern to make the runway from anywhere starting from crosswind.

As the thread started as, it's important to talk, squawk, look and most of all expect the guy who thinks he's the only one in the sky. ADS-B is the best thing to have in the plane, IMHO, when in the pattern. We get signal from about 300-500 feet, so except for guys just off or almost on (or the cub w no electrical system), you can see everybody.
 
Why is it that my runway "incidents" - except for one with a student - have been with twins and Bonanzas? Is it just my bad luck, or it something about the owners of these types of aircraft?

This reminded me of a visit to another local airport recently. We called our downwind following a Cessna for runway 9. Just as we are turning base a big twin calls 3 miles out runway 27 (his first call) and asks us to extend for him. Our answer, "we're on base turning final. We'll go ahead and land." Our intended answer, "No way, you idiot. This isn't your private airport. I don't care if you just transferred from Center or not, but there are other planes in the sky and they don't bow to you. If you want the runway, you can wait your turn." He did a low approach while we rolled out and kept going somewhere else.
 
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